No, I didn't. But so far I have based my opinions on evidence. Evidence that Lucas himself has presented to us.
You have based your opinions on nothing more than conjecture.
It's fun to speculate. I do it all the time, but the only thing that is ever true is that Lucas hasn't shown or told us that Maul can do lightning, so I'm going to stick to that.
EU stories, video games, visual dictionaries, the cartoons and all that other stuff may lead you believe these characters are superheroes, but as far as the movies go, Darth Maul was a punk who got beat by a Padawan, and when he could have frazzled Obi-Wan he didn't, he just stood there with a stupid mug, so it's obvious he can't do it.
Why would he have tried it? He totally OWNED the jedi's AT ONCE. At no time was he in any danger what so ever of losing the fight. He was toying with them. Qui gon is a seriously powerful Jedi, and Obi wan was no punk. Maul destroyed them both. Just because his arrogance cost him his life, doesn't mean he is any less powerful.
The lack of him using all his force powers just showcases his power actually. If he was weaker then he was, probably he would have had to use the lightning or the other force powers to try to win the duel. But he was so much fuking stronger then both of them at once, that he didn't even have too.
The fact remains, he was a Sith trained from birth by Palps himself. There is nothing in any of the movies that leads me to believe that he didn't posess the full arsenal of Sith powers. Well trained, full of rage, has a great teacher, and lots of time to learn anything he needed.
Of course he could use lightning. He just didn't have too.
I completely support Red Superfly's rants, because they completely support my own, and add to them.
It doesn't matter how long Darth Maul or Darth Tyranus were trained. Dooku is obviously a Sith, because he fries Anakin and tries to fry Obi-Wan and Yoda.
And just because Qui-Gon is a powerful Jedi Master, doesn't mean he can keep up with Maul. He was wearing out; even Jedi get tired, you know!
Dooku was more powerful than Maul, and also more skilled.
The TPM duel lasted a lot longer than the AOTC duel, as well. Maul may have man-handled Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to your view...though, I must note, he was retreating most of the time...but Dooku man-handled them even faster. And you know what? Skills with a lightsaber matter shit to skills with the Force. Maul hasn't shown anything other than Force pushing every once and awhile, while Dooku toasted Anakin for a few moments.
And Diamond? Don't bring EU powers into this. Plo Koon could also make Ice bolts, and Ki-Adi-Mundi could make things explode, and yatta yatta yatta who cares?! It's EU, and completely irrelevant to the conversation.
I totally see where you are coming from. But I disagree.
We don't know how long Maul was trained for starters. Saying he was trained since birth isn't official. The jurys out on that little fact I'm afraid.
I'd like to think he didn't have to use lightning - but he did. Right before he got split in two. He could have done with some electrocuting goodness right there. I don't think using lightning would have just "slipped his mind" when he was stood over Obi-Wan for a minute and a half thinking "wow, I wonder how I could knock him off that little knob thing from here? If only I had a power that was long range enough...."
So, we could just say we just don't know if he can or not. I don't think I'd be dumb enough to say he 100% cannot do it, but so far wisdom leads me to believe it really ISN'T LIKELY that he could perform Sith Lightning.
Last edited by Red Superfly on Jul 6th, 2005 at 10:43 PM
Just because TPM was a shit movie, does that mean all the characters in it were shit too? I believe no, but apparently you think otherwise. The movie was supposed to portray Maul as a straight up killer, and to me it did that. He owned two jedi's one of which was about the best the jedi had at the time. Qui gon was second only to Yoda at the time of TPM and he got punked by Maul, and he even had his padawan helping him and still lost.
Also, Palps doesn't recruit punks. He has shown that he wants the very best apprentices available to him. For those 2+ decades, that was Darth Maul. I think it would be awefully foolish to assume that Maul had no real force powers. If Palps just wanted a sword fighter, he could have made a droid like Grevious or something. No, he wanted a full on Sith Apprentice and that's what he had with Maul. Maul had everything Siths have. All the strength, all the rage, all the training, all the force powers.
Dooku may have been stronger, but don't assume that means Maul is worthless. It's not an all or nothing thing. Maul is up there with the best. He isn't the best, but he's up there. He can do it all, I have no doubt about that. The fact that he didn't, just showcases that he had a serious lack of experience, and a serious lack of a brain.
Had all the power, but no smarts to back it up. That's why he died. But of course he could use all the Sith powers. That's a no brainer considering who he is and who his teacher is
So after all that, you have still not learned anything? Come on dude, you're making stuff up now.
And since when has the quality of TPM got anything to do with the characters powers? I personally quite like TPM, it has it's flaws, but it's certainly better than AOTC. What part of the arguemnet were you trying to target by talking about TPMs quality? It's irrelevant here.
What you are saying is completely without a knowledge base. How do you know Maul had all the power and no brains? From watching TPM, Maul seems quite clever and quite the tactician, through the course of the movie and including during the duel.
Maul had much to learn, he was an apprentice, he was no master, you keep going on about him as though he was unstoppable. He wasn't.
This is getting kind of...er...drawn-out. So far, I have read everything said and come to the conclusion that Vanquish is, for the most part, in the wrong.
Maul was the Apprentice. Apprentice = Padawan, since Maul is about the same age as Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan really did train since birth with Jedi teachers and Qui-Gon, but we don't see him lifting up starfighters and throwing them at Maul, do we? Can't assume that Maul can do lightning in the seem respect as Obi-Wan can't match Yoda at that age.
Siths don't work the same way as Jedi's though. Siths don't graduate into Sith Lords until their master is dead and they are the one left. So yes Maul was the apprentice, but don't assume that means he is still in training. He was every bit a Sith at that time. Palps says himself "the jedi's will be no match for you" He is obviously fully confident that Maul is ready to take on anyone and anything he encounters.
Calling him a padawan is totally inaccurate, for no other reason then they don't work that way.
Also, you saying i'm wrong like it is ordained by god and lightning strikes in the background when you say it is kind of arrogant don't you think? I mean, since when did this become a discussion about right and wrong?
Sith or Jedi, Maul would not have learned more than Obi-Wan would have in the years of training. Just learned the same stuff differently.
Trust me, if Maul were a Jedi, he would have been a Padawan on the brink of Knighthood, as Obi-Wan was.
*lightning strikes in the background* SILENCE MORTAL!
Would you like to make it a discussion of right and wrong? Right is the opposite of left, or doing what is good, or saying something correctly, whereas wrong is...
We are talking about force lightning here. It isn't a skill that any Jedi will learn, no matter if they are obi wans age or Yoda's. Who are we to say that it takes a set amount of years to learn it? Why do you assume that Maul didn't not have the time or training to learn it? Where is your source for the number of years it takes to learn?
My source is simple. He is a Sith, on a level well beyond that of even Qui Gon. Second only to Yoda in the Jedi order. Please.. comparing Maul to Obi wan is a fuking joke...
Maul was impressive, but the debate was over whether he could throw lightning, and he obviously couldn't do it, for reasons exhaustively mentioned before. One day, he could, but the day he died, he didn't show any ability in lightning powers.
It's clear you hold a lot of bias towards Maul. We can compare him to Padawan Obi-Wan because Padawan Obi-Wan killed him.
I haven't read through this thread, but has anybody stopped to consider the fact that the Sith had been in hiding for many many years and that Palpatine had probably not taught Maul how to use force lightning... Maul may have thought that it didn't even exist if he never saw Sidious use it or hear him talk about it. I have no idea why or how Dooku learned of it though.
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Jul 6th, 2005 10:22 PM
