Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Oh...did he reach it ?
He failed in the end because of the Rebellion or - at least - because of two Jedi left (Obi-Wan and Yoda) to train the galaxies last hope. He failed like any other Sith did before him.
The only Sith that realy archieved his goals was Ragnos where all others were stoped by arrogance, circumstances or betrayal.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Anakin was practically composed of the force, does that mean he's unbeatable? That hardly holds water. Vodo called Kun his greatest pupil, and he's 600 years old, does that mean he's the all time best? My professor said I'm the most talented student he's taught, does that mean I should run down the street and laugh and point? Hardly. You're taking Kreia's word as law, the SAME Kreia that mentioned Ragnos' incredible strength and force wielding abilities, Tulak's incredible lightsaber skills, and then illustrious menace of ancient Sith.
Why do you keep bringing up Kreia's compliment to Revan, but ignore whatever is mentioned about the power of the Ancient Sith?
Sith Magic was pretty powerful; and it's not like it was readily learned. As mentioned, Sadow was a member of the Sith Priests, and he was in the mold of Simus, considered the most powerful Sith fighter of his day until guess who came along? Ragnos.
That should tell you a thing or two about Ancient Sith. I'll take their Sith magic, alchemy, and old techniques over Jedi teachings anyday.
Oh except conquering a planet and fashioning his own army, but I guess it's nothing important. And also he proved to be the corrupter and nemesis of Exar Kun in spirit form. Nothing important.
Look at the individuals you named. "Revan, Malak, Palpatine, Vader".
Do you notice the trend there? They were AFTER the height of the Sith Empire. What's the Sith Empire's #1 motto? The strongest shall rule. So given that Ragnos ruled for over a century, what does that tell you about him?
Besides, if Palpatine has "cunning" because he took over the galaxy, Ragnos is pretty smart for pulling a fast one on all the other Sith.
Ragnos did beat Simus, and do you really believe that you can rule for a century and not face any opposition? Did the Black Sea part for his leisure? Seriously.
Also, Ragnos' goal was NOT to conquer the Galaxy, he made NO ATTEMPT at doing it, that doesn't make him weaker than people who have attempted it. It's not like everyone else, where he attempted and failed. Also, Revan did not conquer the galaxy, he didn't do it, he scared the crap out of the galaxy, but he didn't conquer it. It's in the same mold that Kun could have probably conquered the galaxy if not for Ulic. Close doesn't give you the loot.
As for Kun's spirit, he absorbed the whole Massassi race, made them extinct, in order to encase his spirit, you'd think he'd be a little bit stronger than Ragnos' spirit. Ragnos's spirit also was 1000 years older, he did crown Exar, stop Ludo and Naga's fight, and infest a body -- albeit a body that was already beaten up. Obi-Wan's spirit lasted 10 years, Ragnos' spirit that lasted over 5000 does seem pretty impressive by comparison, especially considering he didn't kill off a race (as far as we know) to do it, don't you think?
Besides this being one giant run on sentence; this just gleams into the perspective of the Ancient Sith. You use this example of Revan being powerful because he plundered, killed, and fought for 6 years straight -- guess what? Ancient Sith lords would be fighting for their entire lives, you could walk down the street to the Kwik-E-Mart and find lethal guy with a saber/sword, does that mean that we should award the Ancient Sith victory by default? One of the primary arguments is that people in war, like Malak or Revan, would beat people at peace, like Mace or Yoda, so why wouldn't this argument work for individuals that fought for a living?
We don't have the career figures about the Ancient Sith. Everything we DO know about them tells us they are very powerful, but we don't know every detail. Unlike Babe Ruth, whom we KNOW hit 714 homeruns, we don't KNOW the full depth of the power of ancient Sith Lords like Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, Nadd, etc. If we knew everything about them, you can say, sure Revan isn't dead yet, so he can continue doing things.
Nai, good research as always, great points. Thumbs up.
True words Illustrious, true words. I think we all seem to momentarily forget the fact that the Ancient Sith, the Middle Ages Sith (Exar-Revan) and the New Order Sith, are all figments of our imagination. The guys who created these ideas, created them over a 20 year span. They are just human as well as we, they can make mistakes in piecing together all this information. When making the KOTOR games and the like, the writers did their homework, studied the history and were able to create a brand new character that fitted in to galactic history. Of course, as is the goal of these designers, they design new characters that must always top the last ones, just so they seem fresh and exciting. I doubt very much that these men and women actually sat down and created a list of who's strongest from top to bottom.
In our debates about who's strongest, we shouldn't be focusing on how much they conquered, how they conquered it, and what they did to ensure their conqueree remained the conquered. This goes for their own people, enemy people, friends and other miscellaneous groups.
Marko...MARKO, yes we've all been spelling it wrong with an A, Marko Ragnos defeated this Simus and ruled over an already subjugated populace. He most likely DID have an overabundance of power, and after seeing him defeat another Dark Lord and seize the mantle, noone else is going to wanna challenge him. However, other than that, we've been given no examples of his power. Yes, he did last five millenia and yes he scared the scrotum off Sadow and Kressh and took over Tavion's body, but it gives no indication of his ACTUAL power like is shown when struggling for one's life against another foe of equal power.
Naga Sadow may not have been as powerful as Mr. Ragnos but he did show his strength in pulling that star's core out. He may have scared the Republic and destroyed much in his war, but it was his fleet that did that, not him personally, and he lost, doesn't say much for his strategic skills. We never saw him and his Force minions confront the Jedi army one on one, then we would most definetly see his Power.
Exar Kun is of obvious strength. He paralyzed the senate chambers' inhabitants, which included a number of Jedi masters, and sent his pupils to kill them. He may have zapped the Masassi of life, but who's to say that no other Sith couldn't have done, or HASN'T done that? I bet alot of them could if they put the effort into it, or maybe they didn't have the opurtunity at the moment. Maybe Exar DID put a lot of effort into and didn't just do it with a flick of his wrist like it is made to seem almost.
Revan...Revan, Revan.........REVAN! He had brilliant tacticianing skills, that is indisputable, that makes him valuable and a worthy foe. But what makes a Sith Lord a Sith Lord isn't just his gift in miliatry co-ordination, it's his pure, raw, STRENGTH and POWER! If you were to put him in real life(Ha ha, funny) Star Wars, then he would go down with a slash of a sabre, remember that. He killed the non-Force sensitive Mandalore, killed many non-Force sensitive enemies, we can't deny that he was a great dueler and Force practisioner. But since we are comparing Sith Lords from across the ages, we don't know what his status would be comapred to the Sith of ancient times. I mean really, think about it.
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The one problem is that we don't know the true extent of Revan's power other than what we can see in a computer game. I swear someone needs to right a book for KOTOR sort of like the Baldur's Gate books.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Well...what would that do ? If someone writes a novel about Revan and suddenly he can blow up planets or things like that people (including me) will immediatly start arguing that guys like Ragnos, Sadow or Hord could do the same stuff (and do so with reason).
I'm only thinking about "conditions" when it comes to duels not about thinks that characters realy did. Because we can't know what some characters are able to do. Has Yoda enough force power to destroy a planet ? We'll never know because he would never try to do something like that.
And if we want to compare Revan to the ancient Sith Lords we have to keep following things in mind:
- he wasn't trained from infancy on (the Jedi started to do so past the Ruusan reformation) - the ancient Sith were
- he didn't grow up in a enviroment that constantly challenged him (in physical and mental ways) - the ancient Sith did
- In terms of physical power he is by far not as impressive as the ancient Sith are (makes a different if you fight with a lightsaber or with a "real" saber)
- he has no real "background" to explain his powers or abilities (at least the rules and history of the Sith Empire are some background for people like Ragnos or Sadow).
That are some "conditions" that Revan can't simply have. All that the people responsible for the KotoR games can do is:
a) Give us more background information on Revan
b) Make him do even more impressive things than he did in his career as far as we know it today
And I don't think that things like that would give him the edge on any of the ancient Sith Lords as long as the game developers don't come up with another (nearly) unbelieveable background story (another "Chosen One" conceived by the force itself...stuff like that).
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Excellent points Nai. I might skip around a bit in my rebuttal.
1. To my knowledge we don't even know if Sadow's spirit was destroyed by Freedon but it's most likely, yet I don't know why you think Sadow's spirit was close to Freedon's power. Next, if that is true, Nadd still got quite a bit more powerful after that and Kun was kind of wussy until he got the amulet that increases his power. With that he destroyed Freedon's spirit almost easily and got quite a few more Sith artifacts and knowledge since then, increasing his power even further. So no, I don't think that Sadow can defeat Kun at his max.
2. Like I said, Nadd's spirit hasn't done anything extraordinary.
3. Kreia said Ragnos possessed immense physical strength and power in the Force, not unbelievable. So what, She also says Revan was power, staring at him was like staring into the heart of the Force and this was Revan before the Mandalorian war and the Revan at his peak would probably be 3 or more times more powerful than the Revan she knew.
Next, she did NOT say your little quote about civil wars and constant duels so I would appreciate it if you don't put that in your posts. (Or correct me with where she said it if you're 100% sure you're right.)
4. As for Ragnos' ascension to power, he merely had to battle another for the title, I can't remember his name at the moment but he lost but didn't die.
5. Next, you've got a good point on why Ragnos didn't attack the Republic but Revan was not stopped by Jedi. He had the galaxy at his feet with less than a hundred Jedi left (most of whom stopped being Jedi, at least for the time being.) He merely chose to leave the known regions for he knew who the true fight was against.
6. The prophecy was just me showing that Ragnos wasn't the god some people make him out to be. Palpatine's predictions were almost always right.
7. Again you take Kreia's words on things from a thousand years ago to be true. She also said Revan was the heart of the Force and she knew him but does that quote not count all of a sudden? Besides, she is comparing them in general which the average dark Jedi or Sith Lord would be stronger than the average dark Jedi or Sith Lord in Revan's time. It doesn't mean the strongest Sith Lord in Revan's time would be defeated by the weakest Sith Lord of ancient times. I would like to point out that Revan had no trouble whatsoever in defeating Pall's spirit (who could use the Force and had a weapon), and he tripled his power or more since that time. You also said Pall's power would be much greater than Ragnos since he was from the powerful time so if Kun's power only doubled or so since he defeated Nadd's spirit who's weaker than Sadow who's weaker than Ragnos (you said) who would look like nothing compared to Pall, then Revan at the time he defeated Pall's spirit and was still rather weak would easily crush full power Kun like it was nothing.
8. Revan constantly fought other Force users and I would bet he fought more than the others you mentioned. (Combat experience) and I don't think they had all the information from Malachor V or their base would've been there. Thus, Revan has a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge that the others never had. (Force knowledge)
9. Who do you consider a "true sith" and who do you consider a "dark sider"?
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Revan crushing Pall his spirit means nothing to me, Pall was dead for what 6000? or 16.000 years? Just look at how weak Ragnos became in 5000? Kun absorbed an entire race before he died and even he probably got weaker in those 4000 years... Pall surviving for such a long time and still being better then a lot of people really impresses me.
Anyways this is really a debate we can not get an answer on. Some people think the reputations speak for themselves and IMO they are right others seem to challenge them because the reputations are build on a lot of unknowns. Well we will just all have to think about what we are doing right now, its not like we are going to convince anybody otherwise.
But just one thing I would like to point out.
Obi Wan his spirit lasted about 10 years... That of Ragnos lasted 5000, that of Kun lasted 4000 and that of Ajunta Pall 6000 to 16.000 imagine how much powerful they would be compared to Obi Wan.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Emperor, Kreia DOES say as much about Kreia. Play Korriban again.
Fishy, Jedi don't last as spirits for as long because of their ideals. Jedi believe in harmony and the unifying or living Force... Sith and dark jedi are individualists with a perchant for causing hell.
Jul 27th, 2005 10:02 PM
