Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Yes. You're right on that point. But it is known that Nadd wanted to destroy Sadows spirit and he was alive after he wanted to do so. Well...that leaves the conclusion that Nadd did defeat Sadows spirit or at least thought he did so.
After that Nadd went to Korriban gathering Sith artifacts and then he went to Onderon to conquer the planet on his own and he singlehandly defeated the beast masters (also on his own). The Jedi sended an entire army to destroy him and still he was able to remain as a spirit on Onderon.
As a spirit Nadd instantly killed King Ommin when he thought it was time to do so and Ommin himself was powerful enough to defeat Arca Jeth and keep him as a prisoner. After doing so Nadd preserved his spirit in a Sith artifact and he controlled and manipulated Kun who discovered that artifact until Exar found the Sith Amulets hidden on Yavin 4 and thereby becoming powerful enough to destroy Nadds spirit.
Now think of the following points:
a) Kuns spirit is clearly not as powerful as the spirits of Ragnos (who could control another force user) or Nadd (who could instant kill other force users).
b) Kun was only powerful enough when he had the Sith Amulett...well those things belonged to Sadow. So Sadow at his peak would posess these Amulets and would have been much more used to fighting and Sith magic than Kun, Nadd or Revan. Still think they can take him ?
And think of it: Do you think Jaden Korr would have any chance to defeat a living Ragnos at the peak of his power because he defeated his spirit ?
See above...
Well...First off: Since I'm from Germany I only have the german copys of the KotoR games making it hard to compare things. Since the english version is the original one I will stick to the things said there. So if I'm contradicting them somewhere just tell me.
a) In the german version of KotoR 2 she referes to Ragnos amount of physical strength and strength with the force as "unglaublich" (meaning unbelievable) when you are in front of his tomb.
b) When you ask her to tell you more about Ragnos she starts talking about Kressh and Sadow. She says that you are near the place were their first duel happened and that their actions nearly led to a civil war - because Ragnos left a vacuum of power. Then (again you can ask her to tell you more) she says that civil wars and duels were not uncommon among the Sith and they always were fighting each other to find out who was the strongest - even though those actions threatened the Sith Empire itself.
c) Yes. She refered to Revan as the "heart of the force". Well...what does that mean ? She can only tell something about his potential since he isn't some very powerful person during the time he knew him. Keeping that in mind that just can mean he had a great force potential. Well...we saw what happened to Anakin.
Simius afaik. Still...if you don't have to kill an opponent to beat him you show more "power" as somebody who has to kill people to defeat them.
At least his plan (to conquer the galaxy) failed because of Bastila and her battle meditation. And Bastila was a Jedi Knight. What he did after that point is unknown and if he failed in his task to destroy the Sith Empire is also.
Well...Ragnos isn't god as well as no other known force user is. And Palpatines predictions ? Erm...no. He predicted more than one time that Maul would defeat any Jedi...ups. He predicted that Luke will never have the power to end his reign over the galaxy...ups. He predicted that Vader would never turn against him...ups. He was a good planner, yes but not that great in "prediction".
As I said before. The spirit of a Sith Lord is nothing compared to the "real" Sith Lord. Imagine Pall alive with all his power, all his artifacts and his saber that was so powerful that he himself couldn't control it's powers.
And well...Palls spirit (as he was one of the first Sith Lords) must be running around in that tomb for more than 20,000 years. And he is just around because his spirit is bound to his sword. Well...Kun bound his spirit to the ruins on Yavin 4 by draining an entire race and after 4,000 years he is far weaker than Kun alive. Now imagine how much power the spirit of Pall would have lost after 20,000 years or Sadows spirit after 600 (Freedon Nadds time) or Nadds spirit after 400 years (Kuns time) or Ragnos spirit in the time of Jaden Korr (more than 5,000 years.
And...Kreia (at least in the german version) says: "If you would have to face one of the ancient Sith Lords in a duel they would make us look as children fighting each other with toys". So she referes to the Exile and herself not to an average Jedi...and even if that is the case:
How much more powerful do you have to be to make somebody else look as if he is a child ?
A) Fighting for 6 years (as Revan did) is nothing compared to a life filled with fights. The ancient Sith constantly fought for their entire lifetime (easily more than hundret years) and did so against other force users only.
B) They had access to an entire Empire filled with information. Korriban, Malachor V, Ziost - those places did belong to the Sith Empire at least to the time of Naga Sadow.
A true Sith would be somebody who followed the ways of that "religion" or "cult" in every way for his entire life. In this case that would be all Dark Lords before Sadow and maybe those people that followed the Battle of Ruusan. Note that this says nothing about their power and also note that - following that oppinion - at least Dooku and Vader were no real "Sith".
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
In the English version there is a part (And I've tested it on several games) where Kreia tells about Ragnos using his cunning to keep the Sith infighting. This is in relation to the Exile's optional question regarding civil war.
Nai: Didn't know you had the german version, sorry for any miscommunication there. Nevertheless, in the english version she merely says tremendous strength.
You don't know how powerful Kun's spirit was do you? He instantly killed a Force user too, one that didn't do too bad in combat against Luke. He also Force choked twelve padawans at the same time, but then they resisted it. He helped Kyp Durron rip Luke's spirit from his body and helped Kyp ressurect the Suncrusher from the core of Yavin. Now yes he had drained the power of the entire massassi race, but Ragnos' spirit was charged with Force energy from dozens of different locations so his spirit was fully powered as well and even in the body of a not too shabby Force user and with a Sith sword, he still lost to a Jedi knight. Kun's spirit on the other hand, required 12 padawan's, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power and two lightsabers to destroy Kun's spirit (who wasn't in a Force user and didn't have a weapon like Ragnos.) And no, I don't think Jaden has any chance to defeat Ragnos but I think the spirit has a portion of the original power.
So Sadow had the amulet, he still didn't defeat anyone. A lot of good that did him.
You yourself said that Pall with his immense power couldn't handle his blade. Yet, Revan can.
As for Kreia's quote about the ancient Sith she never knew in a time she wasn't in, let's assume just for argument's sake that she's always right (except about Revan being power and the heart of the Force of course) If they made everyone look like children, then why is it that Pall lost pathetically to the Revan who was far from his peak? Nadd's spirit still whooped up on Kun until Kun got the amulet. Now if Pall's spirit makes Freedon's spirit look like a child, then why couldn't Pall beat the weak Revan when Nadd could defeat the weak Kun? Did I mention Pall had his powerful sword and Nadd only used the Force? It doesn't make any sense unless Revan is WAY stronger than Kun or of course if Kreia is wrong.
What makes you think Malachor V and Ziost were in the Sith empire? Never mentioned in any official source to my knowledge. Plus, I thought Ragnos ONLY ruled over Korriban and they didn't even have hyperspace technology or somesuch.
I'll get back to you eventually on what Kreia says about the Sith fighting constantly every day. How many Sith existed in the empire anyway? On a side note though and having nothing to do with the debate, if they were fighting so much, it's hard to believe they kept up the population so well especially when you don't see many Sith women.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Again, you're reaching. We know for sure that Ragnos defeated Simus, but we aren't sure if that alone got him to the throne. Is it possible he had to defeat other individuals to secure his reign? Yes. Is is possible that he faced other threats to his power? Absolutely, and it is very likely. The fact that he, like Janus said, used his cunning to pit other Sith against each other meant that there were certainly threats against him, he just was smart enough to avoid them and/or powerful enough to swat them away. This just shows he's cunning, immensely powerful physically, and has an extremely powerful grasp on the force. He was fearsome enough to scare the pants off Sadow and Kressh, two very capable Sith in their own right.
As mentioned before, being able to bring the galaxy to "his feet" doesn't necessarily mean you're powerful. Sidious literally did have the galaxy under his feet, but that doesn't mean he could outduel the ancient Sith. No one questions Revan's tactical prowess, but to simply claim he's greater than all the Ancient Sith because he slashed around a few force users and beat up on some old Sith spirits doesn't show much.
I'll defer to Nai on his take on Palpatine's predictions -- that seems pretty accurate. As for Ragnos being god, no, he certainly wasn't. But he was as close to a God the Sith ever had.
Sure it counts, but you have to take it in perspective. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon called Anakin the chosen one repeatedly, Vodo called Kun the greatest he's ever trained, etc. etc. The fact that you have the teacher singing praises about their student doesn't show much; in fact, a teacher is MORE INCLINED to talk good about their apprentices/pupils than about some random person they've heard about from 1000 years ago.
So? Jaden Korr fought a bunch of reborn remnants and the disciples of Ragnos over and over and over again, he slayed hundreds (if you follow the game counts), but that doesn't mean he/she's a superb Jedi/Sith.
Revan certainly did kill a lot, he certainly is talented and powerful, but to deal in absolutes by claiming he was greater than the Ancient Sith is being silly. The Ancient Sith would fight for their ENTIRE lives, many times spanning over a century-- that's far larger in scale that Revan's 6 years of combat experience.
Kreia also touts about Ragnos' physical strength and grasp on the force. In a galaxy of hundreds of species, what defines "immense physical strength"?
You've used this quote several times. I don't believe it's too accurate. Was his spirit charged up a bit? Yes, but how do you KNOW he was at full strength? Even if he was empowered, you stiill have to remember his spirit is over 5000 years old.
You don't KNOW the specifics of whom he defeated. But given his enviroment and being the Dark Lord of the Sith, I'm sure he had his fair share of challengers. Not to mention that war, right? .
This is definitely a stretch. You don't see a lot of Sith women in power, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. You don't see many Jedi getting scooped up from their homeworlds and undergoing training from infancy much in the movies, but that doesn't mean they didn't. You see what I mean? Argument from Ignorance doesn't do much for anyone.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
(With JanusEdit)
Nai: Didn't know you had the german version, sorry for any miscommunication there. Nevertheless, in the english version she merely says tremendous strength. (It's close enough to what he's saying... It says Ragnos was a half-breed with tremendous strength both physically and with the Force.)
You don't know how powerful Kun's spirit was do you? He instantly killed a Force user too, one that didn't do too bad in combat against Luke. He also Force choked twelve padawans at the same time, but then they resisted it. He helped Kyp Durron rip Luke's spirit from his body and helped Kyp ressurect the Suncrusher from the core of Yavin. Now yes he had drained the power of the entire massassi race, but Ragnos' spirit was charged with Force energy from dozens of different locations so his spirit was fully powered as well and even in the body of a not too shabby Force user and with a Sith sword, he still lost to a Jedi knight. Kun's spirit on the other hand, required 12 padawan's, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power and two lightsabers to destroy Kun's spirit (who wasn't in a Force user and didn't have a weapon like Ragnos.) And no, I don't think Jaden has any chance to defeat Ragnos but I think the spirit has a portion of the original power.
So Sadow had the amulet, he still didn't defeat anyone. A lot of good that did him.
You yourself said that Pall with his immense power couldn't handle his blade. Yet, Revan can. (Revan acquired the blade. Whether or not it caused his demise hasn't been revealed yet.)
As for Kreia's quote about the ancient Sith she never knew in a time she wasn't in, let's assume just for argument's sake that she's always right (except about Revan being power and the heart of the Force of course) If they made everyone look like children, then why is it that Pall lost pathetically to the Revan who was far from his peak? Nadd's spirit still whooped up on Kun until Kun got the amulet. Now if Pall's spirit makes Freedon's spirit look like a child, then why couldn't Pall beat the weak Revan when Nadd could defeat the weak Kun? Did I mention Pall had his powerful sword and Nadd only used the Force? It doesn't make any sense unless Revan is WAY stronger than Kun or of course if Kreia is wrong. (One, Pall wasn't a true Sith... He was a fallen Jedi who was with the original exiles on Korriban. He may have been strong, but that was millenia ago. I doubt his spirit is stronger than Nadd's as it's depicted in KOTOR. I mean, he is barely aware of his own presence.)
What makes you think Malachor V and Ziost were in the Sith empire? Never mentioned in any official source to my knowledge. Plus, I thought Ragnos ONLY ruled over Korriban and they didn't even have hyperspace technology or somesuch. (Malachor V is a virtual library of Sith lore. That stuff just doesn't magically appear on some non-Sith planet.)
I'll get back to you eventually on what Kreia says about the Sith fighting constantly every day. How many Sith existed in the empire anyway? On a side note though and having nothing to do with the debate, if they were fighting so much, it's hard to believe they kept up the population so well especially when you don't see many Sith women.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
OK...got that...
He killed a force user. Yes. Instantly ? No. He used force lightning on him and we don't know how long he did it. And that force user was a padawan. King Ommin had enough force powers to defeat Arca Jeth (who is one of the most powerful Jedi in his time). He was a Sith magician and trained in Sith magic for his entire life. And Nadd didn't even use some force power on him...he just said it's enough and *bing* Ommin was down.
For the rest of the things Kun did. He stored his spirit in the ruins of Yavin 4 using the Massasi. He had "real" life force to drain and use it to store his spirit there. His spirit is charged with the life force of thousands of beings while the other Sith spirits just remained because of their force powers.
There are some fundamental differences here:
Kuns spirit was destroyed. Ragnos spirit is still arround in his tomb on Korriban. Jaden Korr just defeated the physical body that Ragnos was in not the spirit of Ragnos itself.
And well...what do you think how much power Kuns spirit has compared to the living Kun ? 25 % ? 50 % ? And that's after 4,000 years AND draining the life force of several hundrets or thousands of Massasi to keep his spirit alive. So...what do you think how much power Ragnos spirit (without the lifeforce draining of Kun) would have 5,000 years after Ragnos death compared to Ragnos alive ?
Can he ? We don't know what he did with that blade and we don't no what that blade did to him.
Kreia had years of time to study the knowledge stored on Malachor V. So why she shouldn't know about the ancient Sith Lords. And Pall was one of the first Dark Lords...actualy one of the Dark Jedi that started that "Dark Lord" title. He's around for more than 20,000 years when Revan ran across him so he would have lost 4 times as much power compared to Ragnos or 5 times as much as Kun lost. And hey...he isn't in a great condition when Revan came in there.
As I said...that comparance is pretty much senseless since Pall wasn't one of the people that Kreia was talking about. The Sith Empire reached his high point under Ragnos.
a) That Malachor belonged to the Sith Empire is mentioned in KotoR 2 for serveral times and what do you think where all that Sith knowledge comes from.
b) Ziost became the capital of the Sith Empire after Naga Sadows time because Korriban was too close to the Republic space.
c) Ragnos ruled over the Sith Empire. The Sith Empire contained serveral worlds...they expanded the Empire for 20,000 years until the times of Ragnos.
d) They had hyperspace technology. The hyperdrive was invented 25,000 years BBY hundrets of years before the first Dark Jedi went to Korriban. Well...how should they have travelled to unknown space without a hyperdrive. That travel would have needed serveral hundret years.
Well...how many planets you can conquer in 20,000 years and than have interbreeding between Sith and the original inhabitants of the planets you conquered ? Actualy there could be billions of "Sith" or "half-breeds" (like Ragnos) living within the Sith Empire.
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
We seem to be going in circles quite a bit. Both Nai and Illustrious have made excellent points, but again, most ancient sith lords' power boils down to assumption, speculation, and Kreia's infamous quote. the only thing I would like to point out though is that I don't know why everyone thinks spirits get weaker over time. They're spirits past the dead for pete's sake, why would they get weaker? Yes, Obi couldn't talk to Luke anymore eventually but did he really need too? No. Is he a sith lord who's spirit possess different qualities than Jedi's spirits? Yes. I haven't found any reason yet to believe all spirits grow weaker over time.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
Yes, you're right. We don't KNOW the full depth of the Ancient Sith's power, so we have to assume. However, what we DO know indicates they are extremely powerful, likely much more so than Jedi or Sith after the height of the Sith Empire.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Well...not everything is based on assumptions. We know what Sadow was able to do and we know that even he - with all his abilities - feared Ragnos. That are facts. The assumptions are there but still they are covered by some evidence we have.
For the spirits:
Is it realy an assumption that spirits get weaker ? We have at least Kun spirit to compare with Kuns "normal" abilities. Would you say Kuns spirit is as powerful as Kun alive ? I don't think so. So if somebody who drained an entire race lifeforce to remain as a spirit on a planet loses power - why shouldn't the ancient Sith Lords.
Also "power" is both: physical and mental. And well...the "physical" component of the power is obviously gone when somebody is only around as a spirit.
And as a last point: If the ancient Sith Lords spirits were as powerful as the Sith Lords alive (meaning as strong with the force) shouldn't they even be more powerful several hundrets or thousand years AFTER their death ? Actualy that time would give them the ability to learn more about the force and we know for example that Kun needed serveral thousands years of training to communicate with other force users while the ancient Sith could do so directly after their death.
Finaly, just to add another information on "defeating death". Simus (who was Dark Lord before Ragnos and trained Naga Sadow) was beheaded by Ragnos and he used his sheer power to remain "alive" as a talking head to the entire reign of Ragnos (so over a century). Well...I call that quite "powerful" (not to say "impossible").
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
And Darth Somebody ruling the galaxy IS NOT the ultimate goal of the Sith. According to Qui-Gon Jin's ghost in the ROTS novel, immortality is the ultimate goal of the Sith but it's impossible for them to acheive:
"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exhaltation of self. Itcomes through compassion not greed. Love is answer to the darkness."
He says it to Yoda at the end, when Padme is about to give birth on Polis Massa.
Hey, off the topic of Sith, did you ever find it strange that the Rakata apparently ruled the entire known galaxy, yet only had 500 planets under their domain. Ten billion Rakata and a trillion slaves seems pretty low as well.
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Jul 28th, 2005 09:49 PM
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