Jesus had the title the Word of God in the book of Revelation... as I said, Jesus, being the fulfillment of the word, He was later called the Word of God.... but Jesus was not called God or even called by the apostles as God... or even declared or introduced Himself as God.
Okay. Jesus Christ was not in the beginning, the son was. And Jesus Christ is not the Son? Rediculous though.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to tesitify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came onlas a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. Children not born of natural descent, nor of human decision or husbans's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and ONly, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given throughMoses; grace and thruth came though Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side, made him known.
I quoted the whole thing, in case you felt like distorting/taking thigns out of context. The bible does not teach that the Son existed before the world was? Thats a lie.
Anyway, the bible clearly says that HE (not it) or the same, was with God in the beginning. It again says through him and later it says BY him. To try and refute its significance is ridiculous. It also clearly states that in him , was life. Your position is contradicting by the bible.
IT even said he made his dwelling among us. What would be the point in noting if he wanst prexisting? Again, he is called God and the Word in the bible.
Yes, exactly my point. You claimed that he had never been called the word, thats a lie. You claimed that the Word was not an existence but the bible certainly doesnt make that claim. Jesus was called God, more than once and even by God the Father. It also says that he is the exact representation of God and by very nature God. So umm, tell me whenever you get it.
As to the humility thing, if you really get it you wouldnt keep bringing that up. IT definetly does not support what you are believe.
I also said it was the Son? The word is the son.. Umm...
God the Father said that the Son created everything and it clearly stressed a number of times in the bible. So is it wrong to say that?
"In the beginning was the Word....
... through him all things were made...
...in him was life..."
Ohhh.. I see... so literal.
How do you understand this: "in him was life"? ---> the word had life?
the Word created everything... literally?
Ohh., so the Father did say it was His Son who created everything?
The Word is the antecedent of "he"... So, is it Jesus Christ Himself? So, you mean before He came to the earth, He was the Word. He was not Jesus Christ yet... He was the Word. So, this Word created everything.
And the Father, being the only true God, is the Creator.. is wrong. Oh. So prophet Malachi was wrong when he said: "Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?."
So, it was really Jesus Christ the only true God who created the world and everything... not the Father? So Jesus and His Apostles were wrong when they introduced us who the only true God is?
I'll add them to my list.
I remember, in Proverbs 8:1-31... the wisdom is addressed as SHE... Why so?
At first, I didn't claim that Jesus was never called the Word of God. That's a misconception. In the beginning was the Word... not Jesus Christ Himself. As I have said. Yes, being the fulfillment of the Word, He was later called the Word of God. If I am claiming He wasn't called the Word... where did I post it? You haven't read my two-part posts. I don't have to explain it again because I already did... with Biblical back up.
Jesus was called God... you said by the Father... Again, i may ask. Where exactly in the Bible does it say that the father called Jesus God?
As to the humility, like what is recorded in the letter of Paul to the Philippians... Jesus, in the form of God, doesn't mean He is God Himself. Jesus having the qualities given to Him by God, chose to be humble as a man, as servant, and became obedient to up to His death... this is indeed the best example of HUMILITY.
John 1:18 actually does not say Jesus is God. Here:
John 1:1-18 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
This is the real thought of John 1:18. Some manuscripts actually changed the underlined with the thought: but God the One and Only.. instead of one and only begotten Son.
Don't you know that we all have God as our Father? Didn't the one God create each of us? Then why do you cheat each other by breaking the agreement God made with your ancestors?
Oh I see, when something in the bible clearly contradicts your stance, it must not be literal. Gotcha. Ok, well im glad to know that your position rests on such a strong foundation. Wisdom was not talked about like the word was (who had life) and is repeated more than once in the bible that it was through and by the word that everything was made.
The Son is the exact representation of the father. Therefore, he said let us create man in our image.
Yes. The Son is the exact representation of the Father. Does that mean the Son created evrything?
Why you didn't consider the rest of my post?
I was asking: Since you said the Word had life.... is it what you mean by: "in him was life"?
The Bible said: "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men."
Now... the Word is about Christ. And Jesus - the Christ - the Messiah - is the fulfillment of this Word. That's why I said, Jesus was later called the Word of God... because this Word was about Him. God had foreknown Him before the foundation of the world. God created the world and all things through Him and for Him. Meaning, Jesus Christ is the sole reason why God - the Father - the Creator - created everything.
As the Father - the one and only true God - pronounced that Jesus is His exact representation, this would mean the SUPREMACY of Christ to all creation. Jesus Christ was chosen before by God to be His Son and to fulfill His will... In order to do this, He must proclaim that Jesus is SUPREME to all His creations... That's why God our Father put everything under Christ. God also declared that in Jesus is Life - the Light of men. Jesus also is the Way. And Jesus is the Door to salvation. Again, in order to put everything under Christ, He must give Christ all the authorities in heaven and on earth. God made Jesus to be Lord, Savior, the Rock to the Church, and Mediator. That's why Christ was found in the form of God - in nature God - having the qualities GIVEN to Him by God. That's why Christ, as God's commandment, should be worshipped. Because Christ is now supreme to all the creations, and having the qualities [given to Him] similar to God, and the "fullness of God [being the Creator and Almighty] dwell in Him bodily", God pronounced that He, the Creator, the Father, the God created the heaven, the earth and the sea and everything in them THROUGH Christ, FOR Christ, and BY Christ - His only begotten Son - whom He [God] loved so much.
This is the MYSTERY of GOD'S WILL to humankind. And after everything will be put under Christ, God will put Christ under Him to make evrything under God... so that God will be all in all.
Yet you said, that the Word created everything. In saying that "in him was life" you mean the Word had life - because you want to show that the Word is the one who created everything. Now you also said that, being the Word, the Son is the Creator of everything.... not the Father.
And also you said ... to say that the Father is the Creator .. is wrong.
Yet you didn't address my post regarding what the prophet Malachi declared regarding our Father. The Father - the God - which is one - the only one who created us all.
Remember clickclick, you have all this proposition: It is not the Father who created everything... but the Son.
Before I proceed to the Hebrew stuff... I may correct first your misconception regarding who the Creator is.
You said - it's the Son. Of course, the Father is not the Son.
Now,
Who is the Creator - the Father or the Son?
Let us check the Bible.
THE OLD TESTAMENT
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1, NIV
Who is the Creator? The God.
Who is this God? The God who created Adam, the first man.
And the LORD God took the man,
and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Genesis 2:15, KJV
This God is also the God of Noah, of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob, of David, of Solomon, of Moses, and of the prophets of old [OT].
This same God is the One who made an everlasting covenant to Abraham and to his descendants.
And I will establish my covenant
between me and thee and thy seed after thee
in their generations for an everlasting covenant,
to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7, KJV
This was the everlasting covenant that God would be God unto Abraham and to his Seed. It stipulates that Abraham and his Seed shall deify God.
Remember also that this God known to ancient Israel is one - the creator - and the Father - also the one who made the covenant to the Israel or to Abraham's descendants.
Don't you know that we all have God as our Father?
Didn't the one God create each of us?
Then why do you cheat each other by breaking the agreement
God made with your ancestors? Malachi 2:10, CEV
And this God is none other than ... our Father.
THE NEW TESTAMENT
Now, when Jesus Christ came to the world, did the godship of God our Father changed? No, this God is still the same God worshipped by the ancient Israel and by the early Christians. This God was still acknowledged as the Father of Adam - the God who created him.
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth,
the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38, NKJV
The author of the book to the Hebrews [probably the Apostle Paul] has still the belief that it is God who created the universe.
By faith we understand that
the universe was formed at God's command,
so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3, NIV
According to the same author, this God has been God to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and others. [Hebrews 11:4-40]
And according to the same author, this God is the Father - our Father in spirit.
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.
9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!
10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
Now who is the Creator? The Son? Yes. According to clickclick.
According to the Bible: The creator is the God... our Father.
And the Apostles in their letters also telling us that the God our Father is the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them... in short ... the Creator of everything.
According to me? No, According to God the father. According to the bible you quote out of. Address the passage in hebrews where God clearly says that it was by the sons hands that everything was created etc.
The stuff you posted can easily be dimissed but you still havent addressed the herbews passage I posted a long while ago.
Did I say because the son is the exact representation of the father that he thefore created everything? Umm no. But please continue to bullshit away.
If the Word was simply a plan, then why wouldnt that have been said? You are saying that the bible says, it was through the plan to send have jesus be born on earth that the world was created, it was by etc that the world was, without etc nothing was made that is made, in him was life but not life, Jesus asked for the glory he once had but never had, Jesus is the alpha but not literally the alpha, Jesus is called the word of God but hes not THE WORD, God the father was fibbing when he said that his son created everything by his own hands, when the bible says that the son was by very nature God (that is incorrect) but when it says that he is the exact repesentation of the father (that is fine), when God said let us create man in our image he was talking to beings who's image was not his etc and so forth.
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Rediculous though.
Mar 1st, 2005 11:21 AM
If I am claiming He wasn't called the Word... where did I post it? You haven't read my two-part posts. I don't have to explain it again because I already did... with Biblical back up. 
