(1) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, (2) has in these last days spoken to us by His [God's] Son, [therefore, Son's Father - God] whom He [God] has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He [God] made the worlds; (3) who being the brightness of His [God's] glory and the express image of His [God's] person, and upholding all things by the word of His [God's] power, when He [Son] had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty [God] on high, (4) having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[Notice the first verse: God has spoken to us in various ways. One of the ways is through what the prophets had written in the Scriptures]
The Son Exalted Above Angels
(5) For to which of the angels did He [God] ever say:
"You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You"?
And again:
"I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son"?
[Here, the author is obviously quoted the Old Testament saying that Jesus is the Son of God. Remember, what the whole chapter is all about. The author [probably Paul] need to prove to the Hebrews that Jesus Christ is superior to the angels. That's why he quoted Psalm 2:7. That particular passage only emphasize that nobody among the angels did God ever call His begotten Son, only to Jesus. This is just one proof that Jesus is superior to the angels.]
(6) But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
"Let all the angels of God worship Him."
[Here. To prove again the superiority of Jesus to the angels, the author needed to quote Deuteronomy 32:43 and Psalm 97:7 that like God, the Son is worthy to be worship.]
(7) And of the angels He says:
"Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire."
[Here. To prove that angels should worship the Son, the author quoted Psalm 104:4 saying that angels and/or ministers are servants.]
(8) But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
(9)You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
[Here. To prove again the superiority of the Son, the author quoted a portion of Psalm 45. In his particular Psalm, it was not the God who uttered these words. The psalm was dedicated to God of course... but the hidden mystery was about the Messiah and His Bride - the Church. This is the will of God but the words written in the Bible are spiritually from God but it was not Him who wrote them personally - So this line: "But the Son He says" ironically explains that the words written in the Bible are His words though He was not the personal writer. The author only emphasized that anything written about the Son of God can be found in the words written in the Holy Scriptures. I just can't believe you understand it literally that it was God Himself who uttered those words. ]
(10) And:
"You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
(11) They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
(12)Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail."
[Here. The author again quoted some portion of Psalm 102. This psalm is a prayer of the psalmist to our Lord God. And of course this prayer was addressed to God. Who wrote this Psalm? David, right? Who is David's God? Of course, the God of Israel. Now, why did the author [Paul] quoted this Psalm? To proclaim that the Son created the world? Again, to emphasize that this God is the One who laid the foundation of the world. And this God - as the Creator of everything - is the only one who had the sole right to proclaim the superiority of His Son. ]
(13) But to which of the angels has He ever said:
"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?
[Finally the author quoted Psalm 110. The Psalm of David. To prove what? Shall we quote the particular Psalm?
Here:
The LORD [or YHWH - that is God] said to my [David's] Lord [Jesus - since the Christ was prophetically proclaimed]
"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
[Psalm 110:1]
Clear. Jesus is at God's right hand. This was fulfilled after our Lord Jesus had finally done the will of God in salvation.
Being at the right hand of God, the author Paul had established a reliable truth that Jesus Christ is indeed superior to angels. This is what the Hebrews should know and believe.]
(14) Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
This is a concluding verse. The author made it clear that the angels are ministering spirits who are sent to serve those who will inherit salvation. The angels and the Christ had distinct functions which made Jesus superior to them.
Now, my question was: Does this prove that God our Father called His Son a God as what you are claiming? Does this also prove your claim that it was the Son who created everything?
Well. I can't blame you if you can't see the truth the Bible is trying to say. That God is one. That God is true. That God is none other than the Father of Jesus Christ. You have proven your blindness here. Pitiful.
And until now, you haven't still proven that God is made up of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As what you claimed. You are saying that Jesus is not exactly God yet you have the contention that Jesus is the One and Only God. To prove the allegation, you quoted an erroneous and prejudice and baseless and contradicting Biblical translation.
Actually, there is no point of keeping up the erroneous verse saying that Jesus is the One and only God when you have the contention that Jesus is not exactly God. As I said earlier, you are contradicting yourself. And you have proven it.
You are saying that the Trinity concept can be found in the Bible. Yet you yourself contradict the Trinity upon saying that Jesus is not exactly God. Hello, the Trinity is saying Jesus is God.
You are saying that it was not the Father who created everything. Yet the Bible is clear upon saying that it was the God our Father who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. You haven't address this particular post. Instead you are pushing your own tactics that the Son created the world.
"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God."
Truly, in God's WORD [logos, plan - an abstract sense], everything was made that has been made.
P.S: You haven't established the relation of the Proverbs 8:22-31 to your claim that Jesus existed during the creation. In this passage, the wisdom said she was with the LORD [YHWH - the God our Father] during the creation. Again, it was the Wisdom who was with the Father during the creation, not Jesus Christ Himself.
Please, the truth your purport to search is clearly lost when you decide to ignore the things that are clearly stated. I never said Jesus was the Father, never said that. Where in the bible does it say that it was God the Father and not the son who created everything? It is not worded like that at all.
You wanted to seperate it to change the context but thats not how it is written. Nice try though. Yes, in him was life but not life and it was by him that all was created but not, well it wasnt even a him. He is the word of God but he couldnt beat the word in the beginning. Where in the bible does it say that the word was a plan? I can show you where it says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the word, can you do the reverse?
"A man who can read the New Testament and_NOT see that Christ claims to be more than a man, can look all over the sky at high noon on a cloudless day and not see the sun." - William Biederwolf
UNDERSTANDING THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE TRINITY
The term Trinity literally means "three-oneness"._ Because the term "three-oneness" doesn't often roll off most people's tongues these days, you probably wonder what all the fuss is about._ After all, is the Trinity just something for theology geeks to discuss, or is it practical for all Christians to think in their daily lives?
Although the issue is a mind bender, most Christians have practical reasons for why the Trinity is fundamental to their faith._ First, let's try and understand the Trinity and what it's comprised of.
THE TRINITY
The basic gist of the Trinity is that one God exists, with three distinct identities (or "persons"): God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit._ Each member of the Trinity has a unique personality and role, but they are all coequal and unified.
Although the idea of the Trinity is plainly rooted in the Bible, thw word isn't mentioned in scripture._ Instead, it's an attempt by the Church to explain, as much as possible in human terms, the mystery of who God is._ Think of the Trinity as an equilateral triangle._ The triangle consists of three equal, distinct sides that are never seperate from each other - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit._ Together these side form a triangle, the area of which is "one" - God.
Another way to think of the Trinity involves the three states of water._ Depending on the temperature, water takes on one of three forms: solid ice, liquid water, or steamy vapor._ In the same way, God is "one", but expresses himself in three distinct manners.
EXAMINING THE THREE PARTS OF GOD INDIVIDUALLY
Although each of the members of the Trinity are equal, the role the role that each of them play is distinct._ Ephesians 2:18 prvides a good summary when it says, "For through the Son we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."_ In other words, the Christian has access to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit._ If all those preposotions have your eyes glazing over, perhaps an illustration will help distinguish among the roles.
Suppose you want to travel to Europe from the United States._ Because thousands of miles seperate the North American and European continents, you can't just pack your bags and walk there._ An ocean fills chasm between the continents and connects them together, providing a way to sail to the destination._ In this exmaple, you travel to Europe through the ocean by a ship._ Similarly, when you approach God the Father, Jesus mediates while the Noly Spirit enables.
Most Christians believe that God the Father plays the leading role, they traditionally call him the "first person" of the Trnity, referring to Jesus as the "second person" and the Holy Spirit as the "third person."_ (Note that person refers to his personality and doesn't imply any idea of humanness.)_ At the same time, altogether Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the most common order, it's not like a law firm where names are always sequenced in the same way._ The Bible has several examples of alternative orders (see Thessalonians 2:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-20, and Jude 20-21).
GOD THE FATHER
The Father is considered the first person of the Trinity._ He's the one who people are usually referring to when they say "God."_ In fact, in the New Testament, Paul and other apostles often use the term "God the Father."
The Father is fully in control and is the cheif planner (Ephesians 1:3-5)._ He planned salvations through the Son and is the one actually does the forgiving, not Christ._ God the Father is also the one whom most Christians normally direct their prayers to._ So, he listens to prayers and answers them according to his will.
Many people assume that God the Father is the Creator of the universe, but that's only partially correct._ Although all things originated from the Father, all things were created through the Son (see 1 Corintians 8:6, John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2)._ Therefore, even in regard to the actual creation of the world, you see that two members of the Trinity had distinct roles in the process.
GOD THE SON
The second person of the Trinity is the Son, Jesus Christ._ He's the one who came to earth as a man to die for the sins of the world._ The Son always does the will of the Father and sits at his right hand in heaven._ He's the go-between, smack in the middle of a perfect Father and a most unholy people._ This mediation played out for all people when he died a sacrificial death on the cross, but he also continues to intercede for Christians on a day-in, day-out basis, as they pray to the Father (Hebrew 7:25).
The Bible indicates that Christians should normally direct their prayers to God the Father, but that's not a hard and fast rule._ Occasionally, in the New Testament (such as in Acts 7:39), believers prayed directly to Jesus._ Most Christians tend to feel closest to the Son, identifying with him because he came to the earth as a human and was the one who actually dies in their place._ What's more as Hebrews 2:17 says, Jesus experienced all the temptations that humans have to deal with._ So, he's able to help everyone out because he knows what it feels like to deal with sin.
GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT
The third person of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit (sometimes referred to as the Holy Ghost)._ The Holy Spirit is said to do the will of the Father and of the Son (see John 14:26)._ Of the Trinity members, ,the Holu spirit is the one that's hardest to relate to for many people, because "spirit" is such a vague concept._ But, inspite of the mystery, the Holy Spirit performs many critical roles in the lives of Christians.
He has been involved throughout history, such as in revelation to the authors of the Bible and in supernaturally impregnating Mary for the virgin conception of Jesus Christ (see Luke 1:35)._ He also is actively invloved in the life of every Christian._ First, he participates in the salvation of a person, which os often referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit."_ Second, he dwells inside all Christians, filling them with spritual gifts, giving assurance, convicting them of sins in their lives, helping in worship, and empowering them for service.
The Holy Spirit also plays an important role in a Christian's prayers life._ First, the Holy Spirit prompts believers to pray._ Second, most Christians believe that even when they don't know exactly how to pray for something, the Holy Spirit serves as their translator, so to speak, so that even when they don't know how to express themselves, God the Father understands their needs (Romans 8:26-27).
The primary reason that the Trinity is essential to Christianity is because of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ._ Christianity says that salvation is possible because Jesus Christ, being fully God and fully man was in the unique position of being able to offer the perfect sacrifice on behalf of all people - because he was perfect.
If Jesus wasn't God, then his sacrifice would've been illegitimate - meaningless._ The Old Testament clearly says that humans can't achieve salvation on their own, picking themselves up to God by theri own bootstraps._ The Israelites tried that roughtby following the Law of God, through Moses, gave them._ But they failed to keep up their end of the bargain with God, falling into disobedience time and time again._ Therefore, is salvation is possible, it must fall on God and God alone to provide it on his own initiative and his own doing, not on anyone else.
Further, Jesus Christ can't simply have been some super-angelic lackey that God sent to the earth to do his dirty work for him._ Because God is the one grieved by peoploe's sin, he's the only one in a postition to restore the severed relationship between humans and himself._ Or, to put it in a catch phrase: He alone can atone._ We may forgive the injuries which others do to us: but the sins we commit against God only God himself can.
THE TRINITY JUSTIFIES WORSHIPING JESUS
A second reason supporting the practical significance of the Trinity deals with worshiping Jesus._ Quite simply, if Jesus isn't God, then it makes no sense to worship him._ You wouldn't worship any other good person would you?_ You may respect him, but that's a whole different ballgame.
Christians believe that the Ten Commandments make it clear that humans are to whorship one and only God, and no one - or nothing - else._ Whenever the Bible says angels appeared, it also says that the told people not to worship them, which reinforces this point.
Yet, Jesus encouraged worship of himself, and the apostles emphasize that throughout the remainder of the New Testament._ Because Christians believe that Jesus spoke the ultimate truth, they trust his encouragement to worhsip him and regard him as Lord._ And because Jesus is the only human the Bible tells us to worship, that instruction helps back up the claim that Jesus is indeed God, in light of the Bible's earlier instruction to worship only the one true God.
John 1:1, 14_ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Romans 9:5_ "Of whom (the Jewish people) are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God._ Amen."
John 14:8, 9_ "Philip said to Him, 'Lord show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us'._ Jesus said to him, 'Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?_ He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father"?"
John 10:25-33_ "Jesus answered,... 'I and My Father are one'._ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him._ Jesus answered them, 'Many good works I have shown you from My Father._ For which of those works do you stone Me?'_ The Jews answered Him saying, 'For a good work we do not stone_You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make yourself God.'"
Philippians 2:6-11_ "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness._ And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!_ Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8_ "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."
Hebrews 1:3_ "Who being the brightness of His glory and express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power..."
Matthew 28:19-20_ "Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I cammanded you._ Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Throughout the_Bible, God makes it clear that he doesn't share power with anyone._ Therefore, if the Son and the Holy spirit aren't part of the same being as the Father, then these verses are nothing more than heretical, because they treat the three as equals._ And_don't_get hung up on the term "Son" because because contemporary society usually thinks of a son as_someone junior or unequal._ Yet, in biblical times, "sonship" was thought of as meaning "likeness."_ John 5:18 expresses the popular understanding of "sonship" in Jesus' day._ In this passage, John indicates that the Jews tried to kill Jesus because he "called God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
Actually, I did post that one... which, you obviously ignored earlier. When the Bible has made it clear that it was God our Father who created everything, it is also clear that it was not the Son Jesus Christ.
Apostle Paul, at least according to Apostle Luke, knew only one God - and it is the Father. This same God also was preached by Apostle Paul among the Gentiles as the One who created the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
Paul and the rest of the Apostles in the opening of their letters never failed to distinguish the God from Jesus Christ... they always address the grace and peace to "God our Father and to our Lord Jesus Christ."
God is our Father. The Creator.
Our Father is the only true God, not the Son, not the Holy Spirit.
Again, I am not denying that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.
God, as the Creator, created everything FOR Christ, THROUGH Christ, and BY Christ... not in the literal sense that it was Christ Himself who created everything. God our Father remains the Creator... only He Himself had declared that everything was created because of Christ. Christ is the sole reason why God our Father created the world.
The word "Logos" itself is literally a plan, a thought, or an intellectual emanation... and used only by Apostle John to personify our Lord Jesus Christ, which the Word (Logos) is all about, being the Man, the Son of God who was "foreknown" by God before the foundation of the world.
Jesus, being the fulfillment of the Word, He was therefore called the Word of God.
But the truth remains that it was the God our Father [as prophet Malachi and the Apostle Paul declared] is the Creator of the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and everything in them.
On the second century, when the Christian Church was taken over by the Church Fathers... Prosecution in the Christendom was prominent. since the early Christians believed that Jesus Christ is a man, they never had any single idea that He is our God.... but the Son of God. The pagans actually attacked the early Christians with these belief. Pagans once declared that Christians do not worship any God... but a dead man. The Church Fathers were alarmed with this attack... so they gradually formed an official doctrine that Jesus Christ is God.
CHRONICLES
Tertullian (160-230 AD), one of the most notable of the Church Fathers, wrote that in his day, 'the common people think of Christ was a man'. -George N. Marshall Challenge of a Liberal Faith
p. 63
The heathen attacked and persecuted the Christians. They told many false stories about the Christians, accused then of many terrible crimes, and misrepresented the teachings of Christianity. In response some Christians wrote books. Because in these books these writers defended Christianity, they are called Apologists. An apologist is one who defends what he believes to be the truth. - B.K. Kuiper The Church in History
pp. 15-16
At the same time Christianity, had to suffer a great deal from the written attacks of some of the keenest minds of the age, such as Lucia, Porphyry, and Celsus, men of a philosophical bent of mind, who hurled their invectives against the Christian religion. - Louis Berkhof The History of Chrisian Doctrine
p. 43
Thus Celsus, a scoffing pagan philosopher of the third century, contended that the Christians had no right to criticize the polytheism of the pagan world since their own worship of Christ was essentially polytheistic. "The Christians," he declared, "worshipped no God; no not even a demon, but only a dead man... If they do not wish to worship the pagan gods, why should they not rather pay their devotions to some of their own prophets than to a man who had been crucified by the Jews?" -John A. O'Brien The faith of Millions
pp. 98-99
Origen, the greatest of the early Christian writers, defended the Christians from the attacks of Celsus. This he did, not by denying the change that they worshiped Christ but by showing that the Savior was worthy of such adoration because He was God. -John A. O'Brien The Faith of Millions
p. 99
Catholic theologians today maintain that neither a trinity or a plurality of divine persons is taught or revealed explicitly in the Old Testament. -Edmund J. Fortman The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity
p. 290
The word 'Trinity' does not appear in the New Testament; and the meanings of the words 'person' and 'nature' in the precise senses in which these words are used to bear the message of God, had to be carefully refined to bear that message rightly. - Lowler Ronald, Donald Wuerl The Teaching of Christ: A Catholic Catechism for Adults
p. 177
The doctrine of the Trinity as commonly defined is not found in the Bible. For we assert that there are three persons in one God - a statement not found in Scripture. Richard W. Chilson Full Christianity: A Catholic Response to Fundamental Questions
p. 25
Now I know that before you said this was showing the humility of Jesus. While I agree that humility is being shown here, there is an obvious problem. Now it is clear here that was previously NOT then took the nature of a servant and was made in human likeness. Now if the SON or the word never existed, who was it that was by very nature God but humbled himself? When Jesus Christ was found in the body on earth prior to his death, he was always a servant. It even says in the bible that he was made a little lower than the angels. He cant be by very nature God and at the same time made a little lower than the angels.
And from what I understand, the passage is really supposed to even look like this in transulation.
"5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
As I mentioned the part about the word making his dwelling among us. That is absolutely nothing of relevance if in fact that were no pre-existence.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16, KJB
The NIV changed God to He
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16, NIV
Now even if one were to use the changed version, NIV, his appearance in a body. Who is he? If Jesus Christ is just a regular man and had no pre existence, what is the point in saying that? Isnt it a given that began in the body? Saying he appeared in the body would be odd to say the least.
Jesus was obviously not just some fellow man. We would not be worshipping a fellow man.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:16-17, KJB
Wow! I'm surprised so many people have been brainwashed by Bible stories. The Bible contains stories stolen from ancient civilizations long before "Jesus Christ" and have been adapted for a new age. It's great to have a belief in a higher power but it stuns me that so many people put their belief in a blind faith that reaps no rewards other than false illusions. I'm not saying that there can't be something out there, what I'm saying is don't put too much faith in stories taken from past cultures. The Roman's adopted the Greek gods but gave them new names, and the Greeks adopted Egyptian gods and gave them new names... and so on and so forth. It's best to learn about the past before placing faith in a religion that may be a falsehood.
Again, Jesus Christ was GIVEN by God the qualities similar to God since God had GIVEN Him all the authorities in heaven and on earth. Only God can GIVE someone those authorities because those authorities are inherent to Him. On the other hand, no God can be GIVEN any authorities; for what is needed to be GIVEN to a God?
With those authorities GIVEN by God to our Lord Jesus Christ, it is "by form" ... or "by nature" Christ was found as similar to God. As what I have emphasized earlier... it is not the literal sense that Christ was found in "by very nature God" ... since God is literally a Spirit and without form like Jesus had... the passage in Philippians only means that Jesus Christ has qualities GIVEN to Him by God. And since He had these qualities similar to God, Jesus still remained to be in a form of a "servant" - being obedient to God's will - this was the truest sense of HUMILITY.
Remember that: There is only one God. If we think that Jesus as God and the One who incarnated into a human flesh, we would contradict the very truth that the Father is the only true God. When it is said that the Father is the ONLY true God, it tags the truth that the Son and the holy Spirit are not. And accepting without conceding that these three are parts of one God, why would Jesus declare that the Father is the only true God? Shouldn't He declare that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One true God if it is what the Bible is trying to say?
And to think that Jesus is God and took Himself in the form of a servant... contradicts your own contention that Jesus is not exactly God.
The Bible says in 1Timothy : God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles and recieved up into glory.
KMC Community Forums
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Again, to emphasize that this God is the One who laid the foundation of the world. And this God - as the Creator of everything - is the only one who had the sole right to proclaim the superiority of His Son. ] 
Mar 2nd, 2005 11:04 AM
If nothing else your bs is moderately creative.
