No one is arguing whether or not Jesus or God exist. You are citing The Bible as proof that Jesus and God are one and the same when The Bible can only be correct if Jesus and God are one and the same.
well this thread is lets say Jesus is divine lets say he is son of god and then deal with the question in hand. Its a make believe thread.......a minature of religions so to speak
Yes, there is one God... but it doesn't necessarily mean Jesus and God are one God.
Ok, let's examine it once again.
“I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30, KJV)
Note that Christ did not say, “I and my Father are one God.” He did not say that He is the Father Himself. Neither did He say, “I am my Father.” If that is what He meant then they must be one in number. But are they one in number? Certainly not!
As far as number is concerned, Christ and the Father are two. That makes Christ’s judgment or decision true because He is not alone in making it; there are two of them: He and the Father (Jn. 8:16-18, Amplified Bible)
The Father is in heaven (Mt. 6:9, KJV); Christ was then on earth. How could Christ was then on earth be at the same time the Father who is in heaven? Even Christ is now in heaven, He is still distinguished from God – being the right hand of God (Ps. 80:17, Col. 3:1)
In saying that, “I and my Father are one,” did Christ mean to say He is God? What did Christ mean, therefore, by the phrase “I and my Father are one”? What was the context of Christ’s statement when He said, “I and my Father are one”? The preceding verses have the answer:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29, KJV)
Notice that Christ and God have something in common. That is, no one can pluck out of Christ’s and God’s hand the sheep given to Christ. Therefore, Christ and God are one IN TAKING CARE of Christ’s sheep, not one in nature or in being.
Thus, John 10:30 has been misinterpreted by some people, including you, to prove the claim that Christ is God.
Well, before Jesus was born there were LOTS of people who were said to be the (semi) mortal children of one GOd or another.
Hercules was only one of them.
Steven Law, an author, recently released a book called the philosophy of Christmas in which he looked at some philosophical arguments surrounding various religious subjects, including the proposition that God and Jesus are one, and in that he made some points which can and were condensed into these short quotes.
"God is necessarily omniscient.
Jesus is no Omniscient.
Therefore Jesus is not God."
"God is Omnipotent.
Jesus is not Omnipotent.
Therefore Jesus is not God."
"God cannot die.
Jesus died.
Therefore Jesus is not God."
__________________
From even the greatest of horrors irony is seldom absent.
Christians saying that jesus is god is just as stupid as if there were muslims who claimed that mohammed was god. Or Jews that believed that Abraham or Moses was god.
But humans aren't omniscient, and so Jesus would have no need to be. If he were, then he would overload his brain (whatever else, Jesus was also human, and so would have humanity's birth knowledge just like humanity; he would purposely limit his power and knowledge to be a human). Omnisophiant though...
He isn't? Where in the bible does Jesus ever meet a challenge his power cannot overcome? Where he finds a challenge impossible due to a lack of power, not because it would ruin the game if he sparked off?
God cannot cease to exist, or not exist at any time. Jesus was human, and so has little quirks like feeding, breathing, seeing, and dieing. He didn't cease to exist though.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
....and later in that chapter....
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 10:29a "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all..."
...if God and Jesus are the same, then Jesus must be greater than all too...
Matthew 28:18 "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.'"
The Bible is only true if Jesus is the son of God but you can only prove that Jesus is the son of God by using The Bible. This is like trying to define a word while using it in the definition. Both instances utilize circular reasoning and both are equally as pointless.
“IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (NKJV)
Those who believe that Christ is God assume that Christ is the “Word” mentioned in this verse. However, it is quite plain that the name “Christ” is not even mentioned in this verse. Neither does the verse say that Christ is God nor does it say that Christ preexisted in the beginning as God. The verse simply states that “IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”
But isn’t it true that Christ is the fulfillment of the “Word” mentioned in John 1:1? He is indeed the fulfillment of the “Word” in that verse. Hence, the “Word” was about Christ. But take note that this is not the same as saying that the “Word” was Christ Himself who existed in the beginning as an independent being.
Then why did the verse say that “IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”? In I Peter 1:20, this is written:
“Who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world,…” (Revised Version)
The “Word,” which was about Christ, is said to be “in the beginning” and “with God” because Christ was in the mind of God before the creation of the world. He was not yet a being then but only a thought in the mind of God. The “Word” in John 1:1 was not a being existing on its own, independent of God, but was simply a thought or a word in the mind of God. Thus, the verse states that “the Word was with God,” being in the mind of God.
Why is it wrong to interpret the “Word” in John 1:1 as Christ, pre-existing in the beginning as God? The verse clearly states that “the Word was with God.” So if, aside from God, the “Word” were another God, then there would be two Gods: one God with another God. That would be absolutely unscriptural for the Bible introduces only one true God.
Did the “Word” remain in the mind of God? Did it remain a thought or a plan in God’s mind? The Bible has these to say:
“Which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh.” (Romans 1:2-3, NKJV)
“So the LORD God said to the serpent: ‘Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field;… And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel’.” (Genesis 3:14-15, NKJV)
“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.” (Genesis 17:7, KJV)
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16, KJV)
Christ is the Seed of Abraham. When God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham, He said, “I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed.” And that was an everlasting covenant that God would be God unto Abraham and to his Seed. Take note that the covenant stipulates that Abraham and his Seed shall deify God: God shall be God unto them, both to Abraham and his Seed, who is Jesus Christ. Far from being a God, Christ is someone who was destined to recognize the true God. As early as the time that the good news about Jesus Christ was being foretold, He was already distinguished from God.
So there was no pre-existent Christ. There was no Christ prior to the fulfillment of the plan of God concerning Him. What was there with God in the beginning was the word or the thought or the plan concerning Christ.
“and the Word was God.”
Then why is it stated in John 1:1 that the “Word was God”? It is because the “Word” or the plan concerning Christ comes from God. Since the “Word” is of God, it shares the quality of God.
“For no word from God shall be void of power.” (Luke 1:37, Revised Version)
The word of God is powerful. As God is powerful, so also is His word. So, the “Word” was God (in John 1:1) in the sense that it has the quality of God but not in the sense that the “Word” was another God.
The term “God” in the phrase “the Word was God” is used to modify the term “Word”. It is not used as a noun but as an adjective. If it were a noun it would have an article in the Greek text, not just theos (God), but ho theos (the God).
So the term “God” in the phrase “the Word was God” indicates the quality of the “Word”. The use of the term “God” here is analogous to the use of the term “gold” in the statement “Time is gold.” “Gold” is not used here as a noun; it functions as an adjective modifying the term “time,” to emphasize its value, i.e., golden.
Using the bible is showing proof that he exist, which is not what I was trying to prove anyway, this thread is trying to establish rather or not Jesus and God are one, and using the bible is how you would establish that. It's clear that no one has anwers to what I asked, cuz NO one is answering any of them lol
Eleven: Christians saying that jesus is god is just as stupid as if there were muslims who claimed that mohammed was god. Or Jews that believed that Abraham or Moses was god.
I didn't know christains thought Jesus was God? Now, they/we believe him to be the Son of God.
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Nov 11th, 2004 11:46 PM
