No it wasn't the costume, and no I don't think he can't play villains. I just think he that it was a poor choice of main villain, regardless of who played him.
willem dafoe is like 'da man' when it comes to playing villains, magazine critics keep saying he plays TOO MANY.
how can you think the green goblin sucked as a main villain?! he is emotionally connected to Parker/Spidey. Raimi didnt even have to make that change like he did to Sandman
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Nothing alike.
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Hmm...
For the sake, let's do another:
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How can you honestly say that Topher looks as bad as you claim? He's no worse than Willem Dafoe. The only difference is, admittedly, the muscle mass and I do agree Venom SHOULD have it. However, Doc Ock is depicted as a very able bodied, muscular man in the comics. Not some chubby English funster.
Admittedly it would have been silly to have Ock in a green and yellow spandex suit, same with Goblin, I actually think their costumes were updated for the better, and I liked Doc Ock because I'm a big fan of Molina, but he's hardly Doc Ock physically. You're biased toward the man who is clearly your favourite character. Venom wouldn't even make it into my top 10.
So Doc Ock being English as opposed to American with an accent wasn't a problem to you?
Appearance is half the battle if the character relies on appearance, Venom is a beasty character I'll agree, but his biggest trait is his attitude, how he contrasts to Parker. The way he acts, the way he behaves. If he pulls this off, he'll be good enough.
How pathetic. So, Parker is only Spider-Man when he's in complete costume? The warehouse scene at the end of 2, that's not Spidey? That's just...so...so stupid. You're really clutching at straws there, man.
Haha, how anally pedantic do you want to be? The fact is, it's Venom, just like Peter Parker is Spider-Man with or without the suit on.
I don't care, I'm not trying to change your mind.
Yeah, because he's an actor, not a model. See how it works?
We all want perfection, buddy. We'll never get it though, will we? You want someone who is basically the Venom from the comics, unaware that he doesn't exist, so what the casting agents have to do is pick actual human beings, you see? Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they get a lot of it right but they can't get it all. Venom is one such case.
You want Venom from the comics, you won't get him. It's not that I have low standards, I just don't have unrealistically high ones where they don't ultimately matter. I like Venom, sure, so I'm more concerned about how he's portrayed, not how he looks. If he looks good enough, that's fine. Do you have any idea how many people casting agents go through? You think they just say "Ahh Topher will do."? They casted him because they believed he was right for the part.
Well there we go then.
Tobey is eclipsed in CGI.
A drummer also has to have a demeanour that works well with the other members of the band, that they get on with like the previous drummer. If he can play everything but they hate each other, what's the point?
Topher might have everything but the muscles.
Worst LOGIC ever.
The thing is, he doesn't even look that far removed from Brock as you are making him out. If anything, it's a plus that he looks a bit like Parker, because then it will add to the idea of opposites. It might come off brilliant in the movie and be a plus where the minus of the muscles has occured. You never know.
Nobody knew if Alfred Molina would play Ock well or not, just like nobody knows if Topher will do the same.
The idea of opposites doesn't come from the physicality though, the stories have always been concerned with internal battles between, and against, each other. Proving that it doesn't matter if you're an every day guy, or some massive, hulking bodybuilder, you still endure shit in life. As Brock and Parker do, and did.
You act as if Raimi is sitting there praying that you like it. Regardless of whether we like it or not, there will be millions who do. He cares about the movies, I think we know that. However, that's the point. He has enough people who like them not to worry about a few people moaning that Topher isn't a wrestler.
I don't see it as being flexible, I see it as being realistic. You're being stiff, and more people here have said that than have agreed with you.
The opposite is also sad. I'm not angry about it, I don't particularly care what you think, I'm curious why you think it, and the only problem you seem to have is visual, which is no different to every cynical comic book fan before a movie. Either you'll like it or you won't.
I don't care what you think, ultimately. I'm just curious as to why you think it. You can hate the movie Venom all you want, none of my business. I'm just asking why.
It doesn't, this is a discussion board, so I'm discussing. Pretty much the same reason why we're both members here.
You spit condescending remarks all over this place. I've got no problem with you specifically, I'm just remarking about your debate.
I didn't after I saw it, which is the point I'm trying to make.
Wait...so...you don't care if he acts like Brock or not? This is why I called your debate stupid, because you clearly want someone who looks like him and don't give a shit if he can act the part or not.
They're not catering to you. Do you even understand how large Eddie Brock is? He's not the average size of a man, or even a bodybuilder. He's huge. If you imagine Vinnie Jones in the Juggernaut suit, that's the kind of muscle Venom is in the comics. No human could act the part.
Spidey, Osborn, Octavius; they're all average males for their age, except for Spidey maybe, and his muscle could be (and was) achieved with weight training.
Yes, because by definition I believe you're acting like one.
It is the character Venom, it's just not fully transformed. As said before, Peter Parker is Spider-Man whether he's in school or fighting Rhino.
And you tell ME to stop the condescending remarks? Give it a rest. I didn't fly into a rage or a rant, it's a discussion. You are the one who told me to "shut my stupid face" and called me a moron.
I didn't go nuclear, that's you trying to make others look bad because they replied to you.
I'm not a Venom fanboy. Also, your name is Doc Ock, you have a Doc Ock sig and avatar, I'd watch who you call a fanboy.
So who's fault is that? Sony?
Well, it is, but I ask again; Who's fault is that?
There's a difference between caring what somebody thinks and being curious about why they think it. If I cared what you thought, I'd be upset that you didn't like the pic, and I'm not. You could come in here ripping into Venom after the movie, doesn't bother me. I'm just curious as to WHY you have the opinion.
It's not nice when people assume you fly into rages is it? Let this be such a lesson.
I haven't seen the footage, so I can't comment.
Freud was an fake.
Yeah, it is too bad. However, you are missing the fact that they nailed Venom, which is harder than nailing Brock. So one would think you'd be happy, but you're focusing on the negative.
I never claimed you're a "hater" of the movies at all, first off.
Second, I called you an idiot by definition, I didn't call you one with the intent of it being an off hand insult. I said it for a reason. You retaliated with "Shut your stupid face, you moron" or something. That's worse than "idiot". If you think it's a no bashing forum, don't bash. You contradicted yourself by "lowering" yourself then, didn't you?
It's not impossible, but it didn't happen because they wanted Topher. Hard to grip, but it's true.
Dr. Freud thing though, funny.
Technically it is Venom. Just not Venom with the mask/face on.
I know you didn't, I was proving my point that you don't like people assuming things. So don't do so about me.
Yeah...it was funny once, but...a bit old now.
Fair enough.
I wouldn't be a "big whoop" if you hadn't spent months berating people for claiming otherwise.
He obviously believes he has casted someone suitable, doesn't he? He's not sitting there thinking "Topher isn't suitable.".
There you go then.
I can respect that. Anyway, I think that we've got the jist of each other's points, we'll see what happens when the movie comes out. I've got no expectations for it. I'm neutral.
You tell me. You're the one who attacked me over not liking this lame teaser poster.
I expressed my dislike for it. And you came along and insulted and flamed like the troll you are.
Dafoe looks great there. Very similar to Osborn save for the washboard hair cut. Ditto for Molina. Physically perfect for Ock.
And I don't know what comics you've been reading, but Ock was ALWAYS chubby in the comics. And what's all this BS about being english?? Did Molina have an english accent in the movie?? No.
And using a comic book pic of Brock btw. Show just how laughable Topher is in the role.
Molina is Ock physically down to a tee. No bias involved. Ask any fan here if Ock is chubby in the comics. They'll all tell you he is.
Pffffftttt some Spidey fan you are. You don't even know the basics.
Wtf are you on about?? Why don't you wake up and smell what you're shoveling. Ock was NOT english in the movie. He didn't have an english accent, he didn't say he was from england.
What are you on about?? Please tell me you're not using the fact that Molina is british by birth as an excuse. It doesn't matter if the actor is from the ass end of space as long as they look the part and act it well.
Good enough for you. Not me. Your standards are not universal for all.
Ah you want to split hairs. Ok, I can play this game.
Yes, Venom is not Venom unless he's in full symbiote. Spider-Man unmasked is not Spider-Man. Because Spider-Man has a secret identity. The mask embodies that. Take it off and we see Peter Parker. Not Spider-Man. When he puts on the mask, he's Spider-Man.
Not as much as you thankfully.
No Spidey mask = no Spider-Man. When we see Spider-Man we see Spidey fully costumed.
No full body symbiote = no Venom.
Yeah, you certainly seem like you don't care
Nope, because that's not how it works.
If you seriously believe there is no actor they could find who was physically suitable then you're more stupid than I dared to believe.
Oh but we have. We had the perfect actors as Doc Ock, GG and Sandman.
Just not for Venom
Yeah, you're right. There's not one actor out there who's a tall, and a well built guy who can act.
Thank you Captain Obvious, but I knew that when Grace was conformed as Brock.
Oh it is.
Translation: I don't care as long as I get Venom on screen.
Expecting a physically suitable actor to be cast is not unrealistic. Something you'll never comprehend sadly.
How nice for you.
Me, I'm concerned about both.
The fact they hired Topher is ample proof they never intended to cast an actor similar to the comic character.
So don't give me a load of BS about casting agents spending hours interviewing actors.
Raimi cast Molina after seeing him in Frida. He cast Church after seeing him in Sideways. They hadn't auditioned anyone else for the roles. Just considered a few others.
Not all the time he's not.
If the drummer can play the instrument, that's all that matters.
And the voice, and the height.
Haha no that title is yours Dr Freud.
Yes he does. Name me one similarity they have apart from blonde hair.
Too bad Brock and Parker were never twin opposites.
Since Alfred Molina has over 20 years of movie and theatre work, and a long history of playing bad guys, and proved many times over he has the acting chops to play the bad guy, there was little if no doubt he could play Ock.
That makes the casting of Topher even worse.
None of that excuse casting against type.
No Dr Freud, that's your own stupid analogy of it.
I know perfectly well Raimi couldn't give two craps what I, or any of the fans think.
Nobody said the movie would be unsuccessful. But like the previous two it will have it's falws, and miscasting Venom is one of them.
So what if more have agreed than disagreed?? You think that makes you right because a couple of other sensitive fan boys flew off the handle like you did??
You can be as flexible as you like. Like I said, your standards are lower. I don't take any old crap fed to me and smile and say it's great.
Neither am I.
Yeah, and the moon is made out of cheese
Well, any comic book fan who thinks the appearance is not important, well they, like yourself, have low standards.
Why do you think many hated GG's costume?? Because it looked crap. Never mind the great performance Dafoe gave, the costume made him come off as really lame in some scenes. It was hard to see him as threatening.
Yeah, you keep saying that. Are you trying to convince me or yourself??
I haven't seen enough of movie Venom to hate him. But his human counterpart Brock is certainly not impressive.
But you're pushing this beyond discussion. You're stripping everything down to it's bare bones and analyzing it.
And accomplished nothing other than showing the fact that it obviously bothers you that I dislike this teaser poster, and the fact they've hired an actor completely physically unsuitable for Brock.
Where??
Nothing wrong with my debating methods. I don't come into a thread, guns blazing and firing insults over someone's difference of opinion.
When even the simplest mind should have known that he would not be CGI all the time.
Of course I care if he acts like Brock. But we might as well have Danny DeVito play the role as the physical similarity is just as different.
Thanks again Captain Obvious.
I'll whip out the scanner later and put the egg right on your face with that remark.
He's not Juggernaut big. Not even close.
You think Ock is muscular, and Brock is as big as Juggernaut LMAO!
Octavius is a chubby middle aged man. Spidey is a slightly buff young man.
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Last edited by Doc Ock on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 01:47 AM
And by definition I think you're acting like a stupid moron.
So cest la vie.
And as I said before, and someone else has said with a thread about this same pic, it is Brock TRANSFORMING into Venom.
Not the same thing and you know it.
Fighting fire with fire buddy.
I'm not going to take your insulting BS lying down.
Let's see, you and the others went into a rant filled with insults and swear words.
I don't have to make you look bad. You do that all by yourself.
I am a Fan boy. And proud of it. What sets me apart from you and the rest of the trolls who went nuts in here is that I don't go crazy over someone else's differeing opinion .
Why do you keep mentioning Sony?? Sony showed Venom at comic con.
No, it's not Venom.
Oh but you do care. It bothered you that much that you resorted to insults. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have been so nasty.
Oh you admit you're wrong now about that??
Exactly.
Just like your basis for attacking me, and all the baseless assumptions you've made about me.
Seeing as we're seeing Brock for 90% of the movie, it's kinda hard not to focus on that negative.
Venom doesn't show up until the end of the movie for the final fight. I am happy they got Venom's look right. But they screwed up Brock.
Yes you did. You claimed I hate these movies, I always nit pick at them because they don't live up to my impossible standards etc etc.
I had to get the link to that Sam Raimi bashing thread to show you otherwise.
Don't try and soft soap me. You called me an idiot TWICE!!!
And you deserved the retaliation comment you got. As I said, I don't take crap like that from anyone.
Not hard to grip. They cast the physically wrong actor. Nothing hard to grip there. It's pretty cut and dry.
No, it's not Venom. It's Brock beginning a transformation into Venom.
HA! You should practice what you preach.
He's thinking he's suitable for HIS version of Brock, whatever that may be.
And whatever it is, he doesn't look like the Brock we all know and love.
Yes, but that doesn't make it right or fair. If he's going to use a fan favorite character, he should try and be as true as he can to the character. Physically and otherwise.
Goody.
In future, be a little nicer when you confront someone who's opinion you dislike/disagree with.
Makes life alot nicer and easier.
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Last edited by Doc Ock on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 02:17 AM
well i know both of you are trying to get your points across. From the looks of it , you are both equally stubborn and will always have some counter statement to every post. I mean quote after quote, its starting to smell like spam, and its just turning into a brawl ock vs alpha ...enough already. It was entertaining , like 2 pages ago.
__________________ Only the gentle are ever really strong.
Last edited by Altar[1stONE] on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 02:19 AM
If you do feel like it's spam, then like I said report it. But I see it as debate. Heated debate maybe, but a debate nonetheless.
The Venom fanboys here have behaved like a bunch of flaming trolls. Secondly, Dafoe is an actor who is right for the Goblin in every way. Acting, appearance, the lot.
Topher Grace is not that suitable for Venom physically.
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Last edited by Doc Ock on Aug 3rd, 2006 at 02:30 AM
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