Pt2 This wouldn't be the 1st time Cap fought somebody who knew more styles though. Cap knows how to do what he does good enough to combat any style he comes across. Bats knowing more styles won't mean much. A person who knows all the necessary stuff is as good as the person who knows all the necessary stuff and the worthless stuff, possibly better 'cause he won't have to bother "unlearning" or disregarding all the crap that's not really good in a fight.
There's more to that though, AM scored a few hits on Bats face. If he was that strong, they should've had more effect. It looks like Bats was stronger than AM in that scrap. AM was a bit of a pushover in those days if Bats can just squash him like that in h2h
I honestly don't see what the point of undergoing rigorous training, honing reflexes, agility, and skill for years, if some skinny kid can just take super steroids to become faster than you.
None say "faster than Batman", but are any of them on par with catching 3 consecutive shots from a crossbow? Catching an arrow without even looking at it? Batman's hella fast, as well as hella skilled. Hella's a hella good word.
Batman has never fought Cap. Except in crossovers, which are actually ruled out of debate by the freaking forum rules. We go by their own canon feats, not stuff that went on in a crossover. A is more popular than B isn't a good argument, cuz Cap's been around for a LONG time, and has been in a LOT of books. Not as many as Batman, but a good many.
The fight will last a while, but hey, 20 minutes is a pretty long time for a fight to last. It won't take hours, it won't take days. It's already been proven that Batman can last for quite a while without tiring. Even if he does begin to tire, it won't be enough to detract from his fighting.
Not fast as a bullet, but still fast. If Zeiss can see a punch coming, he can't automatically dodge it, no matter how fast it moves. If he can't move out of the way for any reason (balance? already trying to attack?) Batman can hit him, whether he tries to dodge or not. If he were doing nothing but trying to dodge, I imagine he'd do extremely well. Batman simply gets him into spots that he cannot get out of without taking a hit.
Again, I wasn't saying Batman would beat Cap solely because he beat this guy. I'm saying he's fought supersoldiers before, it's an experience feat, nothing more.
Didn't you try to make fun of my sarcasm earlier? Kids these days!
Both of those feats were requested. You asked who he had disappeared from that was noteworthy. I said Superman. You asked who he had scared the crap out of. I told you a werewolf and a Ra's Al Ghul acolyte who didn't flinch from torture and promised death. The Superman one was sarcasm, if anything.
Because he can't.
Oh... I thought "it" was Batman's pressure point techniques. (as you said "it" would not be effective against a good fighter) I get it now... You could've just said that!
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I'm not following your logic, I guess. Batman knows everything at Cap knows. He could just use techniques from judo and jiu jitsu and such, and would probably end up matching Cap blow for blow. Now, he also throws in some random style from the Himalayas that happens to be a very good counter to jiu jitsu... You see where the advantage starts to come through? Cap does not know EVERY useful technique there is. Batman knows every good thing Cap knows, plus a whole lot of other good techniques. What Cap does not know is not necessarily bad.
He looks stronger than everyone when he fights them. He's Batman. The fact is, he was taking superstrength punches and hammering through superhuman durability. There IS an Aquaman respect thread.
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this fight wont be determined only by knowledge, its all about endurance and we know CAP has it and can last forever bat gonna lose this no matter what angle you look at it
I don't think it matters that much how many styles you use as long as your fighting style is effective.
for example: i believe a pro boxer would beat the crap out of a man having a black belt in karate, taekwondo, and judo.
daredevil knows a lot more martial arts than cap, but cap beat the crap out of DD.
another thing i'd like to point out is that martial arts all have different styles and forms, which actually conflict with one another when used.
For example:
1. a wrestler leads with his right foot while a striker leads with his left (for right handed people)
2. a muay thai boxer has a more upright stance while a pure boxer is slouched.
3. karate and taekwondo fighting stance starts with their hands at chest or waist level while boxing arts raise their hands.
4. i don't even want to enumerate all the differences of kung fu disciplines.
so my point? a man with tooooo many martial art disciplines would mostly be confused in instinct as to which martial art too use. i'd prefer a man who's well practiced on about 3-5 arts but has effectively merged them into a unique fighting system.
im not saying capt.a is a better fighter than batman, but they are close enough in skills that fighting ability won't be the deciding factor....... but i bet stamina will.
another point about chi and ki. Chi is concentrated energy, which means that bats had to concentrate before he could have ripped up that pole. During an all out fight between the 2, bats wouldn't have enough time to concentrate his chi properly to be able to deliver excessive strength feats.
As compared to capt.a, who is naturally stronger, and who wouldn't need to concentrate in order for him to tap his natural strength.
with that thought in mind, as the match goes on cap would start to land more and more telling blows while bats tires out. in the end, cap's stamina and superior strength would win out. not the fighting ability, coz they are too close in that category.
oh and another thing about their armor. batman uses improvised kevlar while cap uses improvised chain mail. kevlar is more effective in stopping bullets than chain mail, while chain mail is more effective on stopping sword thrusts and hacks (go to the kevlar website). in a hand to hand match, i believe chain mail is much more painfull to hit than kevlar.
This is a very good post... Extremely well thought out, well organized, logical, all that jazz. Well done.
That said, I don't think a good bit of it applies.
It depends on the level of the respective fighters, in the boxer vs. MA matchup... An exceptionally good boxer could probably take an average practicioner of the said 3 arts, but I personally doubt just boxing would be effective if his opponent is as skilled with his 3 arts as the one man is with boxing. Judo rules...
DD doesn't know a whole lot of martial arts... He definitely boxes, does some judo and jiu jitsu, but a lot of his fighting style is about acrobatics over actual traditional martial arts. What makes him exceptional is his senses. And I don't remember Cap ever really beating him anyway. It was pretty much a stalemate in the "exhibition" fight...
The next section brings up a good point, but I don't think it applies. You can't use Muay Thai and traditional boxing at the same time, but you can throw around Muay Thai techniques while predominantly using American boxing. You can switch between styles mid fight, depending on the situation, and you can blend arts that DO work together, possibly having several different mixed styles within your general "style" of fighting. Batman has NEVER gotten confused or indecisive in a fight before, to suggest that he would is a bit of a stretch. He knows what to do, and when to do it. He simply knows Cap's tricks better than Cap knows his, therefore he has an edge. I don't mean to say that his advantage is a huge one, but Cap's physical advantages are not nearly as large as many seem to believe.
Was it chi or conditioning? Batman didn't concentrate for a long period of time. He backflipped over the pipe into a squat and ripped it off of the ground. The panel implies that it was basically one continuous motion. Cap probably has a small lifting advantage, but Batman is right up there with him. Plus, striking power is about a LOT more than raw strength. Batman has been shown kicking through trees as a teenager, he hits HARD.
Again, Batman's stamina has proven to be extraordinary. He can fight for very long periods of time without tiring. How long before the blows start landing? A minute? Two? Five? 20? Batman won't have broken a sweat, he ran around fighting crime for 4 days straight. He hunted OMACs and had a few big fights for a span of 80 hours, 20 minutes of h2h is nothing. The advantage will have already been gained and the fight will probably be over before Batman begins to tire.
Batman has taken blunt force very well before though. Guys have broken boards and chairs across his costume, to no effect. An OMAC tried to cut it and failed. The thing is STRONG. Chainmail would hurt wehn you punch it, but likely a lot less than Superman's weakened forcefield and superdense body.
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Good post. You went way farther into the "keep it simple with the Martial Arts" thing. Stamina may end up being the deciding factor. & once Bats gets even a bit fatiged, multiply the advantages that Cap already had.
Does that scan say they've been fighting for 10 hours straight!? Does it also say that Batman held for 4 hours WITHOUT Superman!?
Yeah, Batman's gon' die of exhaustion after 15 minutes...
Amazing scan. And yeah, chainmail would probably be better than kevlar, but again, there's different degrees to each. A lot of kevlar is still> minimal amounts of chainmail in all aspects, and vice versa. And apparently, the new one isn't even kevlar... Thought it was, but meh, this works too.
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There were posts talking about how some fighting technique are better than others. Like a martial artists can take out a boxer. A boxer can take out a wrestler. This type of martial arts can beat that kind of martial arts.
Great points, but what is important to remember is the who the person is that is utilizing those fight techniques. The person's character, commitment, and heart has to be counted for.
Bruce Lee, for example, was a small guy, with tremendous heart and character. This is what made him so great, and beat a lot of people he probably would never have beaten if he wasn't so determined.
Back to the comics... Batman and Captain America both have a lot of heart and character and determination. I feel that Batman's fight skills are far superior to Cap's. Batman, because of his parents being killed, is not just determined, but obsessed about being the best.
A tough combination to beat.
Gotta go with the man in the batsuit in this fight.
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Bruce Lee wasn't all that great of a fighter... His technique was good, but MOST of his stuff was fighting philosophy. He came up with new techniques (the 1 inch punch was his claim to fame there... which was basically a push... It threw the guy back, but didn't really hurt him) His biggest contribution to figthing in general was the whole "be water" thing. He spent years inventing and reinventing Jeet Kune Do, but died while it was still half done. (according to him...) Fighting wise, he wasn't anything special. He even refused to fight Mas Oyama becasue his art wasn't completed.
So yes, he was great in terms of fighting theory, but in actual fighting? Good at best.
And as to the mystic power of heart... I don't think it applies. Both are extremely dedicated, to say the least. I wouldn't say either would "want it more"... And bloodlust prevents either from getting lazy anyway.
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I DONT KNOW BUT I HATE CAPTAIN AMERICA...HE MAY HAVE STRENGTH AND POSSIBLY SPEED OVER BRUCE BUT......IDK, LETS SAY ITS JUST A FIGHT THAT REALLY DOESNT EVEN NEED A WINNER...TWO HUMANS-LOL
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I've read a few books about Bruce Lee, written by others, and they all say what a great fighter he was. Maybe not the best of the best, but up there in skills.
There was even a thread once where they were asking who would win in a fight between Bruce lee and Mike Tyson. Bruce got the majority of the votes over iron Mike.
Anyway, just giving my two cents.
Bats over Cap.
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Mike Tyson is one of the shittiest boxers ever to earn big bucks. Don't use him as an example, thanks.
I would like to see someone explaining what kind of hits Cap could throw that hit Batman. They have to be absolutely supernatural to go past Bat's more than perfect defenses. Any move you consider making has already been calculated, foreseen and invented the response to by Bats a dozen times over before you can even think of completing the motion. Batman's inhuman intellect is the problem. Cap has speed, endurance and strength but that's absolutely nothing new to Bruce.
The base line is, they're probably equal in all respects of the physique, but Batman is just that much better. He has the intelligence, the training, the skills, the chi, the creativity and he isn't afraid to cheat. Captain America has nothing whatsoever over Batman.
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You mean, when Bane broke his back? Batman was fighting for days straight, he could barely walk when he fought Bane. That's not the case in this thread, and he won't be fighting for days on end without a shred of rest.
Everytime they fought since, Bane ran.
And even that could be tallied up to PIS, given that Batman's done the fighting for days on end without rest multiple times, given the Fugitive storyline and No Man's Land storyline.
People act like Batman's stamina is simply going to fail on him after 5 minutes of fighting Cap, and it's simply not true given that we know from the comics themselves he can fight for days.
Last edited by Juntai on Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:39 PM
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Feb 3rd, 2006 07:15 PM
Does it also say that Batman held for 4 hours WITHOUT Superman!? 
