Let's see Jordan retired about 3 years ago and Russell retired about 40. Big era gap indeed.
You must wear glasses and never looked at them good enough because I'm looking at Barkley, Perish, McHale, Malone(s), Kareem, etc and I'm looking at TD, KG, Nowitzki, Miller, and Brand and I'm not seeing much a difference at all. In fact, barring Shaq and Big Ben, I doubt there's a player in the league today with the overall mass of Barkley.
The only thing wronger then this is calling Bill Russell a top 5 player (though checking back you did never say build that's just me using associating the same Height and Weight as build).
Show me/prove it. I've seen tape with Russell highlights on it and I've seen tape with Miles highlights on it and I'm not seeing much a difference at all (except the joke of a comp that played during the Russell era).
Show me something that Russell can do that isn't in that tape (keep in mind that this is only a offense tape and Miles has been known to be a nasty little shot blocker)
For his time. Nowadays he sucks. (btw link doesn't work for me because my computer hates Adobe).
Which goes to show how shit the comp was.
@ you proving my point by calling tough defense revolutionary.
.
Because they are so far ahead of him it's nuts.
Yup and MLB is a prime example of this
Winning = money. Ask the Chi-Sox.
Any good manager'll tell you wins = money. Unfortunately such a thing in the 50-60s (except the Celtics manager he's that dude) doesn't exist
AKA being real.
60's and to a MUCH lesser extent 70's but not 80's at all.
I like to call it having a brain.
Poor management.
So the coaches back then sucked too. KEWL
No it doesn't. Reading comp please.
Pretty much every 6'10 player before Mikan. It pretty much says in his bio that being 6'10 and able to jump high was thought as unthinkable before him.
Which means bottom of barrell to me.
I'm sure if you did in fact spot them 100 point then they'd squeak at least 1/10 wins.
Yup.
Suck coaching =/= lack of athletic showing. Shit people say Bob Cousy was the best passer ever but look at a Pistol Pete highlight real/any post-Pete guard and come back to me with that garbage.
Yup.
Which is pathetic considering the horrible talent and the atrocious inflation/defense played in the era.
This is based on era and check this out (this season stats)
Darius Miles
SPG: 1.05
BPG: .98
Bruce Bowen
SPG: .96
BPG: .37
OMFG
Darius Miles > Bruce Bowen
Not that tough in the era of the run and gun, and actually looks pretty sad to me.
Pathetic comp breeds uber stats. Oh and
Shaquille O'Neal:
9.2
Oscar Robertson:
11.4
OMG 61-62 circa Robertson is a better rebounder then current Shaq
Based on what? A bunch of unknown intangibles thrown in favor of the earlier player.
Skills that don't hold up in today's league.
Hence why old timers suck.
Oh it has just as much to do with their skill level
.
And give them the unknown and unshown ability of being able to take it all in.
How would they do today?).
I like to call it making them better then they were in order to compete.
I like to call this making the current players worse then they are in order for the old timers to compete.
yeah, woohoo, miles can dunk, wow, never knew that, thanks for showing me absolutely nothing. thats some REALLY challenging stuff right there. first of all, alot of those dunks were in transition, where all he has to do is recieve the pass and do a simple dunk. yeah, nice example, but next time why dont you show me something worth watching?
You cant judge whose better by looking at highlight films, c'mon you should know better. if that was the case, i would consider vince carter the best in the nba. you have to look at basically 2 things: stats and sucess. and according to anyone's book (hopefully yours too), russell beats miles in both BY FAR. there's a good way to sum it up.
how ignorant can you get? have i not told you over and over again that martin and jordan were playing together for a few years, but a few years only, over a span of a near 20 year career? so thats not adequate enough to say that they're in the same era. the season right after russell retired, kareem came in. Even if kareem did share a few years with russell, i would not consider them in the same era.
if you cant seem to understand the fact that the average player today is more muscular than in the 80's, then you need to study the nba more.
when did i ever say russell's retiring age was a short gap between jordan's?
__________________ Beware of my shadow.
Last edited by RecSpecs110 on Sep 30th, 2006 at 02:08 AM
As a Blazer fan, may I say that anybody who compares Miles to Russell is a complete dumbass. Think about it, the WORST team in the league wants desperately to get rid of the guy. Yeah, he is in Russell's league
__________________
Greg Oden: The future of the Blazers. The future of the NBA.
Actually the burden of proof is now on you to show me something that Russell can do that Miles can't do better. Show me these non-existant comparable-to-this-league's ballhandling/defending/post moves/scoring/passing/etc skills that you are mistakingly assuming Russell has.
So you can play with someone in the same era while not playing with someone in the same era. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!
What?
youtube.com fixes this (don't feel like looking it up myself). The muscle difference is margainal at best (in fact there's a link somewhere that shows the average 80's player was only about less then a half inch shorter and weighed like a lb less Woohoo).
Then wtf is this GARBAGE
Looks alot like you saying that the era difference between Russell and Miles
and
Jordan and Miles is actually comparable. But that's just me.
Just like how the WORST (Knicks btw) team in the league wouldn't even take Russell.
When it comes to picking up talent Isiah's a genius, actually, it's just management of talent where he..........................................................................fails to say the least
"So you can play with someone in the same era while not playing with someone in the same era. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!"
wow, so sad, you said this like 300 times already. why not just be frank and admit that you created the dumbest comparison ever, instead of hiding the embarassment while saying the same thing over and over...just a suggestion.
i think what Myth meant was that he's basically calling you a dumbass for starting a Miles vs. Russell comparison, if you didnt realize it. Also, if you havent noticed, EVERYBODY disagrees with you. A smart thing to do would be to give it up and save yourself from being laughed at even more.
dude, there is no burden on me to find something russell was better at. It's too easy. I'll just pick one thing from my list of what?...250 things that russell's better than Miles at, and i'll go with rebounding. Russell averaged a crushing 20 more rebounds per game throughout his career. there, thats some REAL proof for your sorry mind. YOU are the one that has yet to give me, and basically everyone in this thread, any LOGICAL proof of how the hell any sane person would choose Miles over Russell.
__________________ Beware of my shadow.
Last edited by RecSpecs110 on Oct 1st, 2006 at 04:02 AM
So wait, what you are saying is that Jordan played with K-Mart, crossed him over and dunked on him, but never played with K-Mart even though I just posted a video of him playing with K-Mart?
Your logic is outstanding.
What?
Then show me something.
The only thing I've seen in your adamant defense of Russell is that you haven't really seen him, or others from his era, play and are basing your opinion only on stats and what you've heard/read.
That's what happens when you play in a league that even I could start in.
Food for thought:
Bill Russell's 1963-1964 (or 62-63 one or the other) Celtics had one guy averaging double figure rebounds (Bill) with 20 something
The royals had three
The lakers had two
The knicks had one.
The zephyrs had one
the sixers had one
the warriors had one
That's about 80% of the teams with double figure rebounders and 2 of them had more then one. Nowadays only 30% of the teams in the league have double figure rebounders and 0 have multiple double figure rebounders.
Oh and here's the fun part, the league was a LOT smaller back then but had the EXACT SAME amount of players averaging double figure rebounds in that particular year as there was last year (with 20 or so more teams)
But you'll probably retort with something retarded like OMG THEY WERE BETTER BACK THEN EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE SMALLER, LESS ATHLETIC, LESS KNOWLEDGEABLE, SLOWER, ETC!
I've showed tape.
I've given you a reason that caused you to contradict yourself left and right.
I've told you how crappy the era was.
Hell I even used your logic (stats LOZZLE) to show Miles as a premier defender in the league (his defense stats being better then Bowen's).
It's you that hasn't said anything to me other then HE'S BILL RUSSELL OMG BILL...............RUSSELL. YOU KNOW THE 6'9 AMAZING 210 LB CENTER THAT DOMINATED OTHER CRAPPY CENTERS AND WILT EVEN THOUGH WILT AVERAGED ABOUT 40+ ON HIS ASS WITH 20+ REBOUNDS AND HE ONLY WON BECAUSE WILT'S TEAM SUCKED AND HIS SUCKED LESS! IF WE PUT HIM IN THE LEAGUE NOW HE'S SURE TO BE ABLE TO AT LEAST STOP....................................WANG ZHI ZHI! OKAY NO HE WON'T BUT YOU HAVE TO UPDATE HIM AND SHIT!
hey, when it comes to contradiction and retarded comments, you're the king.
you've shown me pointless tape, you've told me your illogical OPINION on how crappy the era was, and how the hell have you proven to me that miles' defense was better? Russell's defensive stats were ALOT higher. and where the hell did bowen come in? again, nice use of example...cough.
basing my opinion ONLY on stats...lol. wow, ok so i guess its illogical to say that elton brand is better than jason collins, because im only basing it on stats...yeah, what a stupid comment. and let's look at what you're basing your opinions on, as it seems so important to you. you base them on pure assumption (guess) that your least favorite player (bill russell) wouldnt do as well in the present...yeah, ok, i didnt think so. all of your statements are irrelevant, illogial, and purely idiotic. since you cant prove how individually miles is better than russell, you throw me some crap about the average team rebounds and how many double figure rebounders there were back then...yeah, that sure makes a whole lot of sense.
while you think i favorite bill russell so much, it doesnt take much favoritism of bill to say that he's better than your love, Darius Miles. As you can see, not just me, but everybody else thinks russell is better, because maybe, uhhh.....HE JUST IS. You're the one who's like, "OMG, darius miles, he's so my favorite player, so he's better than everyone, and i hate bill russell, so i'll say that he sucks." Yeah, you are truly convincing.
"Then show me something." uhh, whats that word again, oh yeah, STATS, STATS, STATS, every single STAT will show you how russell is tons better than Miles.
there's a difference between saying "in the same era" and "played a game together." i didnt say that martin never played a game with jordan. you're terrible at stretching the truth.
"you're logic is outstanding." thank you, i know it is. its your logic that sucks.
__________________ Beware of my shadow.
Last edited by RecSpecs110 on Oct 1st, 2006 at 03:48 PM
To show what a wonderful indicator stats are of how good your defense is.
Wow what silly logic. Jason Collins and Elton Brand play in the same era and Elton Brand shows with his play that he's better. Russell doesn't.
huh?
Already have.
Of course YOU wouldn't get it.
What?
English must not be your first language.
And every single stat will show you how Wilt is tons better then Shaq, but we all know Wilt isn't on Shaq's level and every single stat will show us that Miles is better then one of the best defenders in the league (Bowen).
So you can play game(s) together and not be playing in the same era. Wonderful.
Given the way your logic works, that's actually a compliment.
yeah elton brand shows he's better with his PLAY, which are what? stats...exactly. so both bill russell and elton brand show that they are better with their much better "play."
"you base them on pure fact (truth) that your least favorite player (Reggie Miller) wouldnt do as well in the present...yeah, ok, i didnt think so." ha! your so desperate to comeback in this argument, that you've gone down to changing my quotes. you're hilarious!
Just look at these piss poor highlights. Terrible. And notice that when BIll Russell played a comparable to todays league player he admits the only thing he could do is annoy him and he did it by what would result in a foul these days (tougher defense rules).
okkkkkkkkk...Russell may not be the BEST center to ever pick up the ball, but he was and WOULD BE a solid player today, in contrast to you comparing him to your love Darius Miles
and yeah, i dont know where you're going with these "piss poor" highlights. Russell looked damn good in them, and all those guys in between, i think they were all saying how great he was, were they not? you cant even show me highlights that back up your point. and even if you could, um yeah, its called prejudice. you'd only show me videos of his bad moments. just like if i wanted to dis shaq, i would show you the picture of him getting, not just blocked, but humiliatingly stuffed by ben wallace this past year. (its actually one of the photo of the year contestants) but of course, im not dissing him, at least not down to the low level you're dissing russell.
I don't know what's more disturbing, your belief that a 6'10 210 lb center would be anything but trash in today's league, or your homoerotic fantasy's of me and my "man" Darius Miles.
Russell looked good, everyone else looked below high school level as opposed to the Shaq highlights where there was at least some competition. Of course, you would miss that point.
first of all, out of all the good current players you could have mentioned to dis russell with, you picked darius miles. you must be in love with him.
yeah, and russell averaged hell better stats than shaq ever did, and he would definately adjust and adapt to his surroundings and play solid in today's game, like many college/high school players do when they make it to the nba. An important aspect that you obviously would overlook.
Chronological Snobbery (kran'-uh-laj'-uh-kul snab'-uh-ree) noun. The logical fallacy that something from an earlier time -- be it thinking, art, science, or sport -- is inherently inferior when compared to that of the present.
"(during the 60's) the athletes sucked, the competition sucked, the league in general just sucked." - B dot Rob
Nah. Youre just a chrono snub. Russell is one athletic person. How many college track and field stars,just like Russell are in the NBA today? Heck how many NBA players today could jump 12 feet away, reach the apex of his jump, go into a downward phase and still clear 6'6" (and this using an antiquated jumping method even for 50yrs. ago)? Just how many centers today could vert jump 4 feet high and is ambidextrous?
Nope. There are plenty of talent in those days, unfortunately for them, they could not adjust fast enough to Russell and the USFDons style of playing. Have i mentioned that the Full Court press that Woolpert's USF Dons started and popularized by Wooden's UCLA Bruins is a staple of championship college basketball even up to now?
At a time when defensive paradigms were designed around the set shot and ball control/stalling; hell yes. Have i mentioned something about the Full Court press?
Macauley and Willis Reed are so far away from Russell, in what? Skill?
The NBA owners are lucky enough to learn from the success and failures of earlier pro-basketball team owners (like those in the defunct ABL and NBL).
First off, lets not forget that the Russell-Macauley/Hagen trade agreement was made even before the actual draft started.
Second, the addition of Macauley and Cliff Hagen not only provided the St. Louis Hawks with a gate attraction for its racially insensitive fans (during those times); it transformed the team into a WINNING team. The Hawks have never went to the NBA Finals before but after the trade they went 4 times in 5 years; winning once and pushing the Celtics to two close seven game series (Game 7 of the 1957 championship went double overtime). Accusing the St. Louis Hawks of poor management because of this trade is like accusing the Houston Rockets of poor management by drafting Hakeem Olajuwon over Michael Jordan in the 1984 draft.
Thats what they all like to say.
Nope. Its the fans that are racist, not the Hawks management. This is a social issue which is beyond the management's control.
Nope. Unlike today, NBA players back in the 50's-60's take dunks as a serious personal insult. If you dunk on someone, that person you've dunked over and most of his teammates will get you later in the game with hard fouls. In Russell's time, there were no flagrant fouls, fans could just rush into the game and punch/throw something at a player, players foul each other with an elbow or a clothesline to the face etc., these things are common occurence, especially in Mikan's era. Since dunks are just show-off moves and you dont get extra points from doing it, coaches discourage dunking rather than risk his players to be involved in a physical scuffle.
Why not mention the fact that until 1940s basketball was considered a sport better suited to shorter men than to TALLER, less nimble players? Its the opening statement in Mikan's bio. Guys like Joe Lapchick of the Original New York Celtics at 6'5" are considered your proto-typical centers back then. Hell since we're in Mikan's era, why not mention Jim Pollard, the "Kangaroo Kid", his teammate. This guy at 6'3" could dunk from the free throw line during pre-game practice. Athleticism in the NBA in the 60's and even in the 50's are not lacking, they just dont show it off. Players back then are not as FLAMBOYANT as today.
You just like to underestimate older teams. Youre a chronosnub after all.
Russell lack athletic showing? Havent i mentioned that he is the original alley-oop finisher? Havent i mentioned that Russell has a 4 feet vert jump? Havent i mentioned that Russell could grab a rebound and throw a pass all in one motion?
Second, i wasnt aware that Cousy was the best passer ever; still though he has a strong claim to that title. Pistol Pete grew up EMULATING Cousy's superb passing skills and Cooz did it at an NBA era where if " . . . . he tries that fancy Dan stuff in this league, they'll cram the ball down his throat."
In the 60's, big men simply weren't allowed to dribble the ball. Thats just suppose to be the job of a guard. If necessary, Russell would have mastered dribbling, similar to when he mastered hook shots and passing with his weak (right hand) hand, but the team doesnt need it.
@ horrible talent. The Russell-era Celtics is a well balanced team; it doesnt have a player in the list of top 10 scorers but it has 7-6 guys averaging in double digits. Russell DOESNT NEED to score but he's 15.1 career average often makes him the 3rd leading scorer for the Celtics in a team whose highest scorer averages around 22points.
IIRC, aside from stats in steals and blocks, those voting for all defensive team also factor in the impact of the defender to the opposing player mainly on his FG%. Miles may have slightly better stats on blocks and steals but it doesnt mean he's a better defender than Bowen. Hell players like Elmore Smith who holds many block records, is considered a poor defender because he often leaves his man wide open just so he could get a block.
Even in a run and gun era, Russell's a center, so naturally assists aint one going to be among his highest stats. He's career 4.3 isnt bad especially when you factor in the fact that he played in an era where assists were only awarded for field goals made without a dribble, unlike today.
If you compare Shaq's and Oscar's career rebounding average, there is no discrepancy:
7.5 RPG for Robertson, 11.8 for Shaq
Comparing the Big O's (2nd? 3rd?) highest rebounding average against the Diesel's lowest rebounding average (from an injury plague 2k5-2k6 season), is a SKEWED way of trying to prove your point.
First off, Basketball knowledge and developments enhances a player skills and performance. These things are tied to the time/era the player is in and not to the player's skill. Old timers dont suck; they usually have better basketball fundamentals than most players today.
Russell's a fast learner. Havent i mentioned already how he trained his right hand to shoot and pass the ball?
Methinks, you'd settle with an UNFAIR and INACCURATE comparison rather than admit youre wrong. Yep Kobe would be doing dunks in games at a time when dunks are discouraged. Yep Russell (and his coach) will NOT take advantage of modern training and nutrition to gain weight nor will they curb his tendencies to throwup his lunch before every game.
No he wouldn't, and there are WAYYYYYY more flop stories then there are success stories in the NBA. It's written nowhere that if you've been dominant all your life that it'll translate to NBA success.
im talking about good players who translate from college to the nba, not bad players. many good players stay good players, but im not saying there're none who dont.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 30th, 2006 01:13 AM
your so desperate to comeback in this argument, that you've gone down to changing my quotes. you're hilarious!
