but Brazil had a so-so game against Ghana, Ukrainegot out of that tough group and USA match was ruined by bad refereeing which slowed both teams momentum
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Can I just explain something.....in regards to the whole England/Germany debate
As hard as it may be to believe, I wasn't talking in the past tense, or even on the form of this World Cup
I am simply saying England have better individual players than Germany, but Germany always seem to gel better, and it's like the old clique goes "There is no I in team"
Over the years, Germany have played better as a team, but when you look at the talent, England have it in abundance
Let's compare shall we??
Lehmann/Robbo: Lehmann is a superb keeper, but is nearing the end of his career, whereas Robbo is also very impressive, but has alot longer to go in terms of playing and getting better, it'll be an interesting battle between the two next season
Lahm/A.Cole: Lahm has been a star this tournament, and in the Bundesliga last term, but surely it's clear to see that with Ashley Cole, you get a bit of everything, he is a terrific full back, and has been linked with Chelsea and Real Madrid, Lahm has no such interest, though he is a bit of an unsung hero, the edge has to go to Ashley Cole
Neville/Friedrich: This is close, but Gary Neville has more experience, and has always been underrated, his defensive abilities are better than many suggest, and he has kept a constant place in the England back four, even when good players have come and gone, Friedrich is a decent player, but not as good in terms of experience, adventure in going forward, maybe better in a defensive sense, but that's about it
Terry/Mertesacker: Do I really need to say anything here?? JT is one of the best centre backs in the world, Mertesacker is not, he hasn't got JT's strength, reading of the game, positioning skills or anything that makes a defender world class, JT would make a number of people's dream teams
Ferdinand/Metzelder:Even though Rio is sometimes prone to slacking off, or being a bit too casual sometimes, he still holds the upperhand in this battle, an amazingly gifted defender with such a reading for the game, has developed so much since he was a youngster on West Ham's books, and is now considered to be world class by so many including me, Metzelder is a solid enough player, and has contributed to the tournament Germany have had so far, but the German defense was constantly criticised leading up to the World cup, and after the Costa Rica game, whereas you'll noticed England conceade alot less, which points to a more organised, technically better backline
Schweinsteiger/J.Cole: Joe Cole has evolved into a world class superstar, and if not, he's damn close, has the ability to beat several players and is now a more complete player, very strong, and confident with the ball at his feet, to me Schweinsteiger looks shaky alot, he has bad patches, and his ball distribution is sometimes lacklustre, but take nothing away from him, a very good player in his own right, but let's face it, he's no Joe Cole, is he??
Beckham/Schneider: Both past their best now, so it's hard to really choose between them, i'd say Schneider has the edge in terms of energy levels and passing contribution, but Beckham is still so deadly in deadball situations, for me this battle has to be a draw
Ballack/Gerrard: This is the battle of the two best midfielders, Ballack is breathtaking, his vision and passing are superb, can score the spectacular on occasion too, but Gerrard has all that and great tackling too, he's an all rounder, and ofcourse is younger than Ballack, it's a tight affair, and I could see some Germans (and maybe even Englishmen) making a case for a draw, but as far as I am concearned, you've gotta be beyond special to outfox/outclass Steven Gerrard!!
Frings/Lampard: Frings has definately had the better tournament, he's also scored a world class goal to boot, and his general play has been adventurous and exciting, Lampard is usually a great player, he had a brilliant Euros, 2 years back, but at the moment, I have to give the edge to Frings, overall though, Lampard is much better (than he's been this tournament) we have seen this many times, and I could never see Mourinho asking to swap him for Frings, no sane man could, could they??
Podolski/Rooney: Now before I go on, i'm just gonna say the reason i've compared these two (and not Klose/Rooney) is because they're the future frontline of eacother's country, now once again, Podolski has so much promise, and has been a superstar thus far, and definately played better than Rooney has, but the arguement could be made that Rooney was playing from scratch considering his injury, and even though Podolski is more prolific, he doesn't give to a team what Rooney does, Rooney has so many elements to his game, he's more than a striker, he's a productive forward with so much ability, one of the top 10 strikers in the world for sure (along with Klose), so for me, it has to be clear that Rooney wins this one, he's done more in his career so far, so as of this writing, i'm gonna side with Wayne Rooney
Owen/Klose: Owen loses this one i'm afraid, Klose is a top,top player, and i'd love it if he were English, he has such a great goalscoring record at the world cup and at international level in general!! May not be quite as impressive at club level, but play him to his strengths, he is top class, Owen is past his best now, lost a yard of pace, but can still finish with the best of them, but as I say, the vote has to go with Klose
Germany are better as a team, but definately do not have better individual players, that is what i've been trying to say all the long, and I was never talking about the past either, so why AC, you saw fit to bring up old tourni records and the such is beyond me
as much as i deplore the italian stlye of score 1 then put 10 men behind the ball for the rest of the match...i do think they deserve a bit of luck after the last world cup where they had a total of 6 perfectly legal goals disallowed for offside as well as a huge number of other terrible desicions made against them
cant really see past Germany
mattomic mentioned that France will win it because of the way Zidane is playing...1 good game...4 utterly terrible games...does not compute...does not compute...weeee...screeeee...kaboooom
So Germany are the better team, aren't they? You claimed they weren't, you tried everything to prove they weren't and I have every available counter. Now you're trying to say it's about individual talent? Funny. Although, that's what I asked you to do from the very start, explain why you think players are better, but you didn't want to, you chose to avoid it.
So do Germany. Loads of shit players working as a team don't end up with Germany's reputation.
Robinson is just consistent, he isn't even as good as David James at pulling off saves. Gordon Banks even says the same thing. Lehmann is not only a penalty specialist but he's able to pull off ridiculous saves.
He never beats men, he relies on Joe Cole to not be greedy and allow him the through ball. Lahm pelts up on his own and beats men, usually ending in a great cross. You're just giving it to England players because you like them, Matt.
I can agree that on their days, Neville is better, but not against pace.
Terry isn't their best defender, but he's good. I've not seen enough of Mertesacker yet to make a call, nor has anyone really.
Again, I agree that Rio is the man. My favorite defender besides Kolo Toure.
Schweinsteiger not only tries to beat men, but he is successful and not greedy in doing so. This is why Germany are better, there's no "I" in team. Joe Cole is a greedy player who is always looking for personal glory more than team glory. I'm not impressed by a guy who steps over a lot and then runs himself in circles. Schweinsteiger is better.
Schneider is clearly better than Beckham, man. Come on, I know you love England, but this is getting silly. Lennon? Maybe. Beckham? No. The man is overrated, overplayed.
As far as you're concerned? Of course Gerrard will win as far as you are concerned, he's English. Ballack has much more of an explosive power when he's not injured, can be relied on for free kicks also, and penalties. He arguably has a better team spirit than Gerrard and has impacted more matches over his career. You can consider this Gerrard's, I don't.
You start off by saying he's better, then end up saying the Englishman is the better player. You're biased, Matt. All you judge is passport, not talent. Lampard has had a bad tournament, yet ironically, better than Gerrard, and he's still not doing any better than Frings. Crucial tackler, explosive shot, tricky player. Lampard has this, but right now it goes to Frings.
I didn't see that coming...
Wayne Rooney did f*ck all in this tourney, infact...he's done f*ck all for England in how long? Podolski has proven he can turn it on in big games in spite of hype, Rooney hasn't and decides that he'll stamp on people and strop off when he has a shit game. Podolski doesn't, he grits his teeth and gets into it, because it's a TEAM game. England have some better individual players as I've agreed, but it's not the case overall.
I agree there.
You made the claim of reputation, being favourites and being lucky. England have SOME individual better talent, just as Germany do. You never said that from the start, nor is that what you meant. You tried claiming England were the better team, everyone saw it and everyone saw me prove you wrong. Germany are the better team, and you keep saying it too.
you are having a ****ing bubble... Robbo not as good as James at pulling off saves? tell me right now, did you watch a single tottenham game last season? Robinson was tottenham's best player last season bar none, he pulled off world class saves almost every other game.
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Can I just say to AC aswell that I am not judging who has been better this world cup, I am judging overall, and the fact is Frings and Ballack haven't got the credentials or the ability that Lampard and Gerrard have
They're good players in their own right, but to compare them to Lamps and Gezza is insanity, Ballack has won quite a few titles though, and I do rate him as a player, but if he were English, I really couldn't see us dropping Lampard or Gerrard to accomodate him
Oh and I never said Germany were a team of poor players, I said they haven't got the individual brilliance of the England players, they are full of very good players, but not world class, with the exception of Ballack, Klose and maybe Podolski, given a year or so more
Bias has nothing to do with it, otherwise i'd blankly refuse to agree with you that Germany play better as a team
Oh and I guess it turns out, you're yet another person who doesn't rate Joe Cole, it's like alot of people have said to me "what does the man have to do to prove he belongs on the very highest stage??"
I agree with this guy, how many clangers or bloopers has Robbo given us?? I can't recall even one, but James has dropped so many on us, it's beyond a joke
Though I must say when he's not slipping up, David James is a very good shot stopper
He's like Inzaghi, scores goals sure, but not a lot else. I don't rate players like that highly. Podolski's pretty awful, no comparison to Wayne Rooney. And I don't think any team in the world would rather have Ballack in their team than the all-round dynamo that is Steven Gerrard, well, except maybe England.
Anyways, end of the day, Germany deserve to be were they are, because they have played good, (occasionally) attractive football and have proven themselves against the very best. Great team spirit which is far more important than individual talent (take note England and Holland), and they handle pressure better than any. I hope they rape Italy, and then I think they'll beat France in the final.
I agree with you, Deco is an awesome player, but the way we were defending in the game against Portugal, rendering Pauleta and Figo useless, I really don't see what difference he would've made
The arguement could also be made that had we used a out and out striker in the 4-5-1 formation, we would've had much more success, the 4-5-1 only serves to frustrate a player like Rooney who wants the ball alot, and can run with it, had Michael Owen been fit, or had we picked Jermaine Defoe or Darren Bent, the system might've worked better
We caught them on the counter attack (Portugal) so many times, but were unable to capitalise, it's a case of lesson learned to Sven for not taking more than 4 strikers, one of which isn't proven (Walcott), one of which isn't a striker per say (Rooney), and one that always passes backwards when in possesion upfield (Crouch)
Last edited by Mattomic on Jul 4th, 2006 at 04:47 PM
The all-round dynamo that is Gerrard, Deathblow? Lampard had more shots on goal than Gerrard did, more chances.
Did I say Robinson wasn't good? I said I don't think he's as good as James, neither does Gordon Banks. James has a couple of bloopers and gets branded for life. Robinson is just more consistent.
Make up your mind, please. First you're not discussing the past, then you are, then you aren't, then you are.
It doesn't matter if we're judging overall or not, Germany are the better team now, they have always been. Have England got some better players? Yes. Was that your original point? No. It's your point now because everything else you say has been proven wrong.
If that's what you believe, then go for it. Gerrard has had a shit tournament if you want to compare him to Lampard, who has also had a bad one.
You said Germany aren't better than England, you used reputation, rating and ranking as attempts to prove this, 'til I countered. Now it's "Oh I meant individually". England have some better players, so do Germany. To say Ashley Cole is better than Lahm is pathetic.
You clearly are being biased though. Beckham isn't better than anyone Germany have, as a player.
I don't rate him, though he plays better for Chelsea. He's greedy and thoughtless.
Rape him? Coming from the man who claimed Rooney was better than Messi, at the peak of Rooneymania. Lahm's a great player anyway. He does everything Ashley Cole does, maybe with slightly less pace, and is able to beat men.
It's inconsequential as to who's putting in bids for him. That's like saying Beckham's the man because Real wanted him. Real are only interested in fame, Chelsea want everyone, it's hardly like Barca are knocking at Arsenal's door.
What does that have to do with anything? I said Lahm is better than Cole.
You never proved me wrong AC, not on anything, if you scale back a while, I said we have better individuals back then aswell
And all the proof I need to see which team has obviously been more consistent is the rankings, and whether you consider them questionable or not, they're still the official rankings, so deal with them
And how is saying Ashley Cole is better than Lahm pathetic??
What I find pathetic is your obvious hatred for everything and everyone English, we have a great crop of players, who are all world class
And i'm sorry David Beckham is a better player than Schneider will ever be
I have proven you wrong on countless cases, what's the big problem in admitting it? "England would do better on home soil!!! That's why Germany do so good!!!" "They knocked England out of Euro 96, in England." Your reply? "Bahahaha! Stop! My stomach!!!". Yeah, enough said. That's just one example and everyone has seen it.
You also said Germany weren't a better team, whilst also saying they are. That was your main point, "Germany are not better than England, they're just a better team". Nonsense.
Serbia are better than Ghana? Finland? All those other teams? No. The rankings are poorly constructed, though I can see why you wish to cling to them. They're all you have, since everything else you've come up with, I've countered.
Because I don't think he's as good, is that ok with you? Because you realise how hypocritical it'd be of you to not accept my opinion, don't you boy?
All? Beckham is shit, Owen is overrated, Crouch is barely premiership class, I could go on.
I have continually said I like some England players, I just hate how stupid English patriots like yourself blindly lead yourself into believing they are the best at everything, even when presented with factual evidence to the contrary. I provided fact, undeniable fact, and you just kept replying "In your opinion, I'm wrong...".
No, not in my opinion, by fact. That's when debates are won and lost, when fact refutes the opposite claims, as I have done to you.
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Jul 4th, 2006 12:14 PM
