Yet you ignore context each time, and instead choose to whine about how it's always ambiguous in regards to Palpatine.
Also, you do realise I'm still waiting for you to post the entire passage, right?
Ad Hominem at its best. Also, were you not buddies with Numan? That's how pathetic you are, you fake 15 year old.
He did block the blast, you dumbass.
"The greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" is ambiguous.
The movie quite clearly shows the upper limit of Sidious' power, and it's below other sith (such as Kun and Bane), so even if the quote worked your way, it contradicts the movies.
No matter what you say, Canderous made it clear to us that it was only because of Revan that Republic Forces won. His tactics and plans turned the tide of the war. It was Revan who lured and convinced many Jedi to join him in the war in the first place. Malak was the first one to join him and then many others followed him. You cannot deny this fact.
Revan reformed the Sith Order in to an Empire, which was in ruins after Great Sith War of Exar Kun.
A) He re-established a Sith Acadmey on Korriban Planet to openly gain fresh recruits.
B) He convinced all his loyal Republic officers and soldiers to turn to Dark Side and be part of his new Empire. So he got a properly trained and battle hardened Man-Power to run his massive fleets.
C) He corrupted many Jedi that became Sith Acolytes of his new Empire.
D) He discovered an ancient Super-Weapon and used it to enhance the power of his Empire.
Now tell me that did Kun discovered Star Forge or a Super weapon that could aid his cause?
Did Kun managed to establish a Sith Acadmey on Korriban to openly gain fresh recruits?
He had support of Mandalorians and also corrupted many Jedi but this does not makes his achievements on par with that of Revan.
And Mandalorians (despite becoming stronger after the GSW) were destroyed by Revan's Forces. So Revan's Forces were much stronger then that of Kun.
Sorry to tell you but Revan became a Sith after visiting the world of Malachor V.
He never even met Exar and I don't understand that how you say that it was due to Exar that Revan became a Sith?
An advice: Correct your knowledge.
It was only 50 years of gap between Kun and Revan. How much technological advancement can you expect to occur in such short time?
Revan managed to create a much technologically superior Sith Empire then that of Kun after just 50 years of time because he knew that in-order to beat the Republic, he needs advanced technology as well.
Do you now that why Kun failed? His stronghold world "Yavin IV" was bombed to shreds by the technologically superior Republic Forces from the space and Kun could not do jack shit about it.
So you blame Revan for this?
Even if we leave this feat out, it still does not makes Revan's case weak.
And also do mention the technology "Sadow's Flagship" that helped Sadow to achieve such a thing. Despite this power he could not win in the Hyperspace War.
On the contrary Revan's forces were crushing all opposition.
Nihilus's power was his big weakness as well. He could not survive without consuming others. Revan's powers were not his weaknesses.
Bane only nudged the moon and all this pulling moon out of the orbit crap has been refuted before. This same Bane was over-whelmed when he learned from Revan's holocron. Try a better arguement next time.
Because you don't know much about Revan's achievements, so I will not be surprised.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 30th, 2007 at 02:16 PM
And so? Proof is in the details. Kotor 2 makes it clear that the Exile and Bao Dur's mass shadow generator crushed the mando's. Flashpoint makes it clear that Karath was an exceptional military commander during this war. Malak was crude in tactics but he is clearly defined as a great hero of the Mando wars.
Canderous also said that Kavar was the first choice to lead the Jedi in the Mando wars but relented because of the council's reservations - what difference does it make who led the war? The important thing is that Revan alone didn't win the mando wars, it was a concerted effort of exceptional Jedi like Malak and the Exile and brilliant Republic officers like Karath.
Well for one Exar Kun had to instigate a war, whereas Revan used his hero status in the Mando wars and the time that war allowed him to have to start his own war. Kun had one war to succeed in, Revan had one war to establish his army and then a second to establish his small empire. The key difference here is that Revan used subterfuge to acquire his army while Kun used his allegience with the Mando's through Ulic to acquire his army.
And the Mando's weren't stronger after the GSW, or are you forgetting that they took huge losses after that war. The Mando were in fact weaker after the GSW. Whereas in the GSW they were able to contend with the full might of the Republic; in the Mando Wars they got beaten by only a third of the Republic army (after it had already been weakened by the said GSW) and only a small contingent of the Jedi (most of whom were padawans and young Jedi Knights).
So the Mando army in the New Mandalorian Crusade were significantly weaker (although perhaps more desperate) than the Mando army of the GSW.
What does the SF have to with anything? In fact it's a testament to Kun's Mandalorians that they almost took Coruscant without any aid from a super factory. By contrast Malak and Revan never came close to threatening the core worlds in the JCW.
That's what you don't get. When Exar Kun resurrected the Sith they had been dead for centuries not since over a millenium earlier had the Sith surfaced with any real significance outside of Nadd and his little adventures in Onderon. Ragnos' himself (in spirit) declared that the Sith would live on for millenia thanks to Kun. So again, if Kun hadn't re-introduced the Sith teachings to the galaxy Revan and co might never have become Sith.
Huh?! Their technology wasn't that far apart and even if it appears so, that has little to do with Revan's decision to make his side more technologically advanced and more to do with Bioware's design decisions. In fact many fans complained at how the technology in Kotor looked too similar (considering the almost 4000 year gap in time) to the technology of the OT in contrast to the comics representation of technology in this period.
So your point here is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It's often painful to argue with fanboy's but when they willfully abandon reason and sense in their arguments it's doubly more painful. Who ever brings up technology in a discussion like this? By your logic every Sith after Revan has him trumped because of the greater technology available to them.
Revan's forces were having problems like little Bastilla Shan and her all powerful BM (I hope you didn't miss the sarcasm dribbling in that sentence).
So? Are we talking about weaknesses? Revan's powers were not his weakness but they certainly didn't help him with Big bad Malak's treachery.
Who said anything about pulling Moon's out of orbit? I said he moved a moon out of orbit, which implies the same thing as 'nudged'. Try arguments that don't rely on weak attempts to de value a characters feats.
You don't know a thing about Sith outside of Revan it seems. Beyond Sidious there are several Sith that have achieved higher feats of power or that have had a larger impact on the SW mythos than Revan. Just because I don't rate Revan has highly as you do, doesn't mean I don't know about Revan.
__________________
Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
Last edited by Allankles on Jan 30th, 2007 at 07:11 PM
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: eating babies like it's 1904
u know in kotor 2 kreia did say that the anchent jedi were better fighters then even revan.
and your forgeting master Ooroo(he was in the hyper space war.
Pardon, Allenkles, but - unfortunately - Revan ranks among the best of them. If we measure "greatness", it could be argued that he's second only to Sidious himself (given that he got pretty damn close to conquering the galaxy just by force and his teachings were what directly inspired Bane to institute the Rule of Two).
Power? I'd say he knew a hell of a lot for a guy who spent only a few years (?) in the dark side's thrall. Especially when his knowledge exceeded Bane's own and "the entire Korriban library". And with all the hype about him? He's definately top 10, likely top 5, and an argument could be made for top 3.
Who ordered the construction of that MSG? It was Revan and under his orders, Bao Dar built that device.
Who put Exile in-charge of that Secret Weapon "MSG"? It was Revan and the entire battle of Malachor was master-minded by Revan.
Exile and Bao Dar were just following Revan's orders.
Kavar was a famous Jedi Master but he did not had the balls to defy the Jedi Council. Thus his story is nullified.
And leadership makes hell of a difference in a war. You should know this if you really are an expert in judging wars and conflicts. Shall I tell you some real world examples to prove my point?
Revan's ideas and tactics were the major reason for victory in Republic-Mandalorian Conflict. Canderous made this clear.
Malak, Exile and other brilliant officers were following orders of Revan.
Revan also had one chance to built his Empire and that was during Mandalorian-Republic Conflict. He gained so much popularity and loyality that many people joined his cause and were ready to follow him blindly. This was because of Revan's incredibly inspirational personality, ability to form bonds, strong will and power.
And that so called "small" Empire of Revan became so powerful that it was crushing all opposition easily. In contrast to this: Kun's Mandalorians were failing against the Republic actually. So Revan built a more effective Sith Empire then that of Kun.
What are smoking?
Mandalore The Ultimate was the one who made Mandalorians in to a "Major Fighting Force" that was powerful enough to defeat the same enemy that defeated them before. The same Mandalorians who lost under Kun's leadership were re-built and reformed by him in much better way and Mandalorians emerged stronger then ever before. MTU's Mandalorian forces were giving crushing defeat to Republic Forces in every battle before Revan joined in to save the Republic from an immediate disaster.
If Revan had not joined this war, then it would be too late for Republic and Coruscant would be captured without much effort. So Revan decided to defy the will of the Jedi Council and lead the Jedi to battle.
Dead Wrong. Mandalorians in Revan's time were stronger then ever.
SF played a very vital role in expanding the power of Revan's Empire. It was churning out unlimited number of Ships and Droids to serve under the command of DLOTS Revan.
Kun's Mandalorians failed to capture Coruscant and Ulic had to give-up.
Revan's Forces had conquered many worlds including Telos and were heading for the Core worlds but a brilliantly planned Jedi Trap nuetralized Revan before he could conquer the Coruscant and few other core worlds. Thanks to Malak's betrayal, things went in to the favour of the Jedi.
Revan's Forces were unstoppable and Revan was doing more then just conquering the Republic. His assassins had already sabotaged the Core Worlds of the Republic and were doing their best to weaken the Republic from within.
Revan pioneered new Sith tactics relying on secrecy rather than brute force. His Sith Assassins quietly flooded into the Republic from their base on Malachor V to kill and abduct Jedi throughout known space. Revan reestablished strongholds and academies upon worlds of ancient power such as Lehon, Dxun, and Korriban. On these particular planets, his most faithful servants broke captured Jedi and converted them to the dark side. Revan also utilized assassin droids—such as HK-47, whom Revan created himself—to eliminate threats to the stability of his fledgling Sith Empire. - The Chronicles | Wookieepedia
You think that Revan was an idiot or something?
I agree that Kun awakened the destiny of Sith but Revan took them to a whole new level of power and dominance.
It was due to re-emergence of Mandalorians that led to corruption of many Jedi and not due to Kun's actions. Revan's corruption is linked to Malachor and not Kun.
Yavin IV (where Kun's spirit remained) does not plays any role in events of KOTOR so don't make baseless theories.
The Sith were greatly weakened due to rebellion of Revan and Exile (just in-case you forgot). It was after arrival of Bane that Sith had a bright future and Revan's legacy played a vital role in it. And only Sidious surpassed Revan's achievements 4000 years later, which was a long time. Sidious's tactics were similar to that of Revan and he succeeded.
No! my points are relevant.
Only Sidious surpassed Revan's achievements and that was 4000 years later. The real technological advancements happened during the time of Sidious.
Bastilla Shan was posing no threat to Revan's Forces. She could not do shit by herself. Remember the opening scene of KOTOR when Endar Spire was crushed by Sith Forces? Her BM could not stop Sith from invading that ship.
Revan was occupied against the Jedi Strike Team. What would you expect from him in that kind of situation?
When Sidious was occupied against Luke, was he expecting Vader to betray him?
Your point is moot.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jan 31st, 2007 at 12:22 PM
"Nudge a moon" is little less then "pulling it out of Orbit" in terms of a feat. Don't you think?
No! I know a lot about Sith outside Revan but you don't know a thing about Revan actually. Only Sidious surpassed Revan's achievements.
Revan's legacy played a vital role in formation of Rule of Two and it is canon now. Sorry! Revan played a bigger role in reformation of Sith then you think.
It wasn't the rule of two that got victory for the Sith. It was Sidious' genius. Look at Darth Krayt and the rule of one. Seems to have had at least as good of an effect. Revan is far from the greatest Sith and don't try to say that you no more about Revan than I do. He was the top dog around here years ago and since then most of us have seen the light. He's really not that impressive in the Grand Scheme.
__________________ http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
Again what does leadership have to do with anything? Ulic was Kun's apprentice yet it was he that earned the Mando's allegiance. Yoda was the leader of the Republic army yet it was Anakin who became the clone wars greatest hero along with Obi Wan. Position's and titles have nothing to do with the fact that it was the Exile who destroyed the Mando's on Malachor.
Telling someone to do something is entirely different from doing it, but outside of that Revan was a competent strategist without doubt. But what so exceptional about this?
What did Revan do in the war beyond heresay? You're making light of the tactical competence the Exile, Karath and co. would have required to have to pull off any succesful offensive regardeless of who had the highest rank. You're talking about rank, I'm talking about the details, and the details clearly point out that Revan wasn't the only one making huge decisions and making an impact.
How ridiculous. You're repeating to me unimportant little bits of the story I'm very familiar with. Every big time war hero, you'd expect would be popular considering the circumstances (the council's refusal to join the war) so this is all largely irrelevant.
Revan's empire was no more effective than Kun's, as they didn't achieve what they set out to accomplish. Both only weakened the Republic one more so than the other (Revan's) because it weakened an already weakened Republic and gave rise to a more insidious threat (Sion and Nihilus).
The Mandalorians in the Mando wars initially met no resistance from the Jedi and were handily smacking the Republic before the Jedi's intervention.
To put this into perspective ponder this. The Mando were outnumbered by only a third of the Republic army in the Mando Wars and this is after the Republic was weakened by the great Sith war. When you put it together, the Mandalorians in the Mando war were weaker. The Mando in the GSW hadn't taken losses from a previous war, they engaged the full might of the Republic and their Jedi and still almost took Coruscant.
By contrast the Mandalorians in the Mando Wars never came close to taking a single planet in the core and this after only engaging a small fraction of the Jedi (mostly young Knights and padawans) and a third of the Republic army. The Mando in Revan's time were a weakened version of Kun and Ulic's Mandalorians.
Ponder this Vader administered over an empire far greater than Revan's regime. Darth Krayt actually ruled over an empire spanning the entire galaxy. Darth Bane established the rule of two and would go on to achieve feats such as moving a moon out of orbit. Sadow caused Nova's and held sway over half of the Ancient Sith empire.
What did Revan as a Sith really achieve? He was a war hero - so were a lot of people in the star wars mythos. He turned against Malak and ended his and Malak's 3 year war against the Republic. The only war Revan ever started he couldn't follow through with and that's in stark contrast to every other Sith who's started a war - who either finished what they started or died trying to accomplish their ambitions.
As I said, just because I don't rate Revan as highly as you, doesn't mean I don't know what he accomplished.
__________________
Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
Last edited by Allankles on Feb 1st, 2007 at 04:31 AM
Actually no, it was Bane's rule of two, his ideology, that even made it possible for Sidious to use his cunning to take over the galaxy. Guess where he got his cunning, could it be from Bane's teachings? Gee whiz.
Oh and Krayt's order of one? You must have forgotten how they aligned themselves with the Imperials and let the Imperials fight their battles, then came and took over at the end. His rule of one is a joke.
And yes, Revan is one of the greatest, only behind Sidious.
No! leadership does not have to do with anything? right?
Decisions made by Leaders can change the outcome of wars! dude. This has happened in real life as well. Here is an example: Hitler's decision to invade Russia was a disaster and Europe was left vulnerable to Allied Invasion. You have to understand that Leadership plays a crucial role in wars.
Under Revan's leadership: Republic won against the Mandalorian invaders. This is simple canonical reality.
Revan and Malak were the two greatest heroes of the Mandalorian-Republic Wars and not the Exile.
Exile's story shows us that it was a disastrous decision to activate the MSG device. Exile was so shocked that she disconnected from the Force and left everything.
Revan masterminded the plans and he was observing the progress of his Forces as well. He had many loyal persons doing his bidding in the conflict. An example: Exile was put in-charge of MSG to activate that device if Mandalorians were winning on the Malachor V because Revan's Forces were already engaged against the Mandalore's Forces outside Malachor in a separate clash. And Exile did what Revan expected from her. This event shows that even if Revan was not present to monitor a conflict, his loyal comrades would do his bidding.
Here is an eye-opener: Revan ordered the construction of MSG. He then ordered MSG to be deployed in Malachor V. Thus Revan set a trap for Mandalorians by luring them to Malachor V and then he sent his least loyal Forces to engage the Mandalorians on Malachor V. But Revan put his loyal general "Exile" in-charge of MSG device and instructed her that if things go bad then she would activate the device. She did exactly as she was told and Mandalorians were destroyed. The other Mandalorian fleet that engaged Revan's loyal Forces were also destroyed earlier. Thus Revan's plans worked and Republic won.
Excerpt from wookieepedia: The Mass Shadow Generator (MSG) was a superweapon used in the Battle of Malachor V. It was created by the Zabrak tech specialist Bao-Dur, under orders from the Jedi Knight Revan, in the year 3,960 BBY. The weapon was the centerpiece of a trap with which Revan hoped to bring about a conclusive end to the Mandalorian Wars. Overseeing the device's use was a Jedi General (later known as the Jedi Exile). Revan lured the Mandalorians to Malachor and a massive fleet battle ensued in orbit. During the fighting, his loyal general commanded Bao-Dur to activate the secret weapon. Moments later, a significant portion of both fleets were suddenly drawn from orbit into a vast gravity vortex that was powerful enough to crush the countless ships into the planet's crust and fracture Malachor V to its very core.
I have presented a detail of how Revan planned destruction of Mandalorians and his plans worked. Check the above two paragraphs.
He has done lot more then this even.
Here is what Canderous said: "It was not your ships or your men or your vaunted 'fight for freedom' that won this, the final battle of the war. It was by the actions of one person–the Jedi Revan–that you prevailed. Revan's strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity, the tenacity, and the subtlety of Revan's Plans. Revan fought us to a standstill and then began pushing us back. We didn't really have a chance." - KOTOR Script
Now you were saying?
An excuse to back-off from the discussion. You surely can't understand what I am trying to telling you or do you?
LOL!
Revan's Empire crushed the Mandalorians and then went on to crush the Republic and was succeeding but a betrayal put a halt to his plans. Now you are trying to blame Revan for this halt? right?
Nihilus was possibly the product of Revan's dirty plan on Malachor. Sion's history is not yet fully known but Traya also played a part in birth of Sion and Nihilus.
Another BS!
Mandalorians were meeting good resistance from Republic Forces as soon as they entered the Republic controlled regions. But Mandalorian tactics were better and thus they prevailed. "The siege of Taris" is one big example of this.
Mandalorians were not weak and neither was the Republic, as both of these powers had 50 years to heal themselves before they would clash again.
Mandalorians were reformed in to a much more stronger Force by "Mandalore - The Ultimate".
Here is a description: Building a great, sprawling complex amongst its forests, Mandalore the Ultimate thus established the inhospitable moon as the clans' new forward base of operations and from there recalled the disparate clans. Though few remained to heed his summons, Mandalore was undeterred, instead choosing to increase the recruiting of other species into the fold, thereby forming a new generation of Mandalorian warriors known as the Neo-Crusaders. In time, the Mandalorian ranks swelled with warriors from countless worlds. Humans soon made up the majority, but species as diverse as Twi'leks, Togorians, Kerestians, and Mandallian Giants were well represented. Under Mandalore the Ultimate's direction, the term "Mandalorian" began to signify more than just a species; it referred to a sect of warriors who defined themselves by their devotion to the Mandalorian ideal of earning honor and glory through combat. - Wookieepedia | History of the Mandalorians | TNEC
Now you get the picture? Mandalorians reemerged as far bigger power then before.
LOL! another load of crap!
Mandalorians never got the chance to reach the Core Worlds because of Jedi Revan's brilliant tactics and plans that halted their invasion.
Mandalorians in Revan's time were far more powerful then before. The above huge paragraph is from canon sources and proves my point.
Vader was not the leader of that Empire that we see in the movies. It was Sidious and Vader was just doing Sidious's bidding. You surely don't get the bigger picture of events that you see in Star Wars.
Darth Krayt's case has been explained by Darth Sexy above.
Darth Bane got the idea of Rule of Two from Revan and refashioned it in a different way. He nudged a moon and did not pulled it out of its orbit.
Sadow's power did not helped him in Hyperspace War, so all the hype about him is gone. He failed and had to retreat.
Revan, Nihilus and Sidious did not failed as long a they were alive. They were succeeding but betrayals ended their plans. So their cases are different from that of others.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Feb 1st, 2007 at 09:42 AM
Back to round one again and asking me that what did Revan achieved as a Sith? Looks like I am wasting my time on you. May be you should ask Drew about Revan and he might have better answers for you.
And Revan fought in three major wars:
- Mandalorian-Republic War (as a Jedi but became a Sith in the process)
- The Jedi Civil War (as a DLOTS)
- The War of Star Forge (as a reformed Sith)
And don't blame Revan for failing because of a betrayal. Sidious and Nihilus also fell when their apprentices turned against them. When the best of the Sith can go down due to betrayal then Revan was no exception.
Then stop under-rating him. If you don't like him then its fine but you don't tell others that how bad he really was.
Jan 28th, 2007 09:11 PM
Their technology wasn't that far apart and even if it appears so, that has little to do with Revan's decision to make his side more technologically advanced and more to do with Bioware's design decisions. In fact many fans complained at how the technology in Kotor looked too similar (considering the almost 4000 year gap in time) to the technology of the OT in contrast to the comics representation of technology in this period. 
http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
