Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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most idiotic list ever, You really hate darth vader do you? Sorry but even MJ could impress vader and escape execution, im sad to say vader is gonna get you sodomised
War of the star forge? Show's how much you know. There was no war of the star forge, that was a single battle at the end of the JCW in Kotor 1. I'm not blaming Revan for failing I'm just pointing out that as a Sith he started a war and didn't come close to finishing it.
I don't under rate Revan, I'd like to think I rate just right, not overrate him as you seem to do.
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
What made you think I doubted the significance of leaders? And you should also be aware that the Exile, Malak and Karath were also leaders. For the Mando wars to be won it needed a concerted effort for all the participants, leaders especially of which Revan was the most celebrated.
And this has significance, because...? Everyone especially the leaders had a role to play in the war. Revan played his role, as did the other generals and officers.
We know that Revan did this, but he didn't order the activation of the MSG nor was he directly responsible for the carnage that weapon caused. At the end of the day, the decision to activate the MSG was not Revan's and if the right decision aren't made by the people overseeing war from the front lines, the best laid plans come to naught.
You seem to think that ordering the construction of an msg is impressive, it's not a feat it's not an achievment except to those engineers involved with it's construction like Bao Dur.
I know what happened, why don't you shorten your posts by sticking to the relevant arguments. Again it's not a unique achievment, in that it doesn't involve any exceptional strategy to execute. Luring the warlike Mandalorians to a planet to do battle is easy, as long as you've arrayed your forces before them.
Your point being? The proof is in the details, where are the details. Kotor 2 establishes that it wasn't just Revan and Malak, there were a host of other war heroes some well covered others only mentioned in passing. What Revan did in that war has no major significance without the details of his exploits in that war. Everything therby becomes nothing but backstory to establish the character firmly in your story (that being Kotor 1).
If you don't get my meaning then there's no point in continuing this discussion.
Who's blaming anyone? Revan is a fictional character by Kaspynn (sp), why would I blame him for what is only his backstory? And Revan didn't have anything resembling an empire in the Mando wars, he was a general in charge of a thrid of the Republic forces. He only began having an 'empire' when the military divisions under him defected from the Republic.
I didn't say they were weak I said they were weaker than what they had been before the GSW. And Kotor 2 clearly confirms that the Republic was still recovering from the Kun war when the Mando wars began. So both forces were weaker - not weak.
Which picture? It doesn't say anything about them becoming more powerful than before. It only says that they had lost a great deal of their forces after the GSW and had to recruit from alien species, nowhere does it claim they were more powerful.
You're also conveniently forgetting that (unlike in the GSW) the Mando's were contending with only a third of the Republic army and a small percentage of the Jedi (most of whom were young Knights and padawans). All this after the Republic was still recovering from the GSW (Mical, Kotor 2)
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
Last edited by Allankles on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:18 PM
Mandalorians didn't get to the coreworlds because the were halted? Obviously. But you forget that they were outnumbered by a thrid of the Republic army and had already suffered huge losses after the GSW. The point being they were weaker than before.
Revan-the-Sith failed to carry out his plans but worse still, he had a second chance to carry out his plans but failed to take advantage, further tarnishing his legacy as a Sith. Only Sidious and Krayt have overcome the Republic. Bane unlike Revan established a Sith legacy (that went on to claim the galaxy).
Sadow failed (as did Revan the Sith) but he showed an ability with the dark side that has been rivaled by few (Revan not among them). He also ruled over more than a half of one of only three Sith empires in Star Wars - the others being Sidious' and Krayt's galactic empires.
Vader administered (meaning oversaw I didn't say he was the emperor) over a galctic empire far greater than Malak and Revan's military machine and his impact on the Star Wars mythos is greater than any other characters.
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
And I said that - a single battle at the end of the JCW. And it was hardly the Sith's greatest defeat, especially when you consider that it was Malak at the head and not only that, but the Sith resurfaced and all but wiped out the Jedi five years later in the first Jedi purge.
Sadow's and Kressh's (sp) defeats were a lot more damaging to the Sith than Malak's (pre Bane).
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
Last edited by Allankles on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:26 PM
No offense, Allankles, it wasn't Krayt's empire. Technically it is simply Palpatine's Empire returned to dominance. He didn't do anything but just kill the dude in charge and declare himself Emperor.
I do think that you seriously underestimate Revan's achievements, and I hate the character.
I didn't say he crafted his own empire, I said he ruled over a galactic empire like Palpatine before him. I know that his empire was a legacy of Palp's Imperial regime. I don't underrate Revan I just have about 6 or 7 names ahead of him in this list. My reasoning prevents him from taking second behind palpy in the Sith rankings, I'd put Vader and guys like Krayt (who actually ruled over a galactic empire) in front of him.
And I understand why you'd say that, Revan is one of those characters whose accomplishments are overrated. In a nutshell he was a war hero in the mando wars, finds a Rakata artifact, then defeats Malak at the end of the JCW and suddenly he's second to Sidious in the Sith rankings? And a top 5 force user in SW?
Let's not get started on how people talk up his military strategies when we've never gotten a single detail on one of them. People want to confuse simple, cheaply designed and overdone back story for actual character relevance. The whole Mando war was simply a Revan back story to start with so why all the hype?
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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.
Last edited by Allankles on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:52 PM
No no, it was stated in POD that the battle of the Star Forge was the greatest defeat of the sith. Considering there were tens of thousands of sith that were all wiped out, including Malak, and the star forge, I tend to agree. And I think your mental timeline is incorrect. After the Jedi Civil War, there were 100 jedi or less remaining, and that's when the 3 sith tried to finish the job, so it WAS the greatest defeat for the sith, and the biggest war up until the Vong War.
I disagree, completely, and like I said, I can't stand Revan's character due to the fanboyism and bias he's spawned. People who fellate him border on homosexuality, given that his character has been poorly defined (as in traits, attributes, and crap) and gameplay mechanic tries to set him up to be some sort of perfect guy - so I love it when I put down all those theories, and silently curse the KotoR staff for being so gay - and I could go on.
But, I debate fairly, and I think that you're a bit biased. Vader isn't as "great" as Revan in terms of accomplishments. He didn't do anything except execute Palpatine's commands - so the credit ultimately lies with Palpatine and Palpatine alone. In fact, if we are to get technical, Count Dooku did more than Vader did in terms of sheer "accomplishments". But both of them were just pawns, and I wouldn't rank either of them as Top 5 or probably not even Top 10 "greatest Sith ever".
So, firstly, I think it does nothing for your argument to try to cheapen Revan's military genius. He was an outrageously superb tactition (not average and not just "above average"). People who speak of his talents were also people who fought along side and against him, so you can't just refute their statements about him. So, please accept it that it is a fact: Revan is an outstanding tactition.
Secondly, Revan got pretty damn close to doing what Sidious did through subterfuge - except he did it during warfare. True, it lacks the subtlety or greatness (it'd be harder to conquer a galaxy through manipulation, in my opinion, than warfare) - but he got damn well close nonetheless, and there's no telling what might have happened had Malak not betrayed him.
Thirdly, like it or not (and believe me, I don't), Revan is Bane's direct inspiration for the Rule of Two, which is what allowed the Sith to survive. Had that not happened, it is likely that the Sith would have been wiped out - and Sidious would never have achieved the things he did. We can give a quiet round of applause to Revan for that.
Fourthly, Revan managed to do some outstanding things - though part of the dark side for a small amount of time - and his knowledge base surpassed Bane's own as well as the entire library on Korriban. That is very, very impressive, considering most Sith masters couldn't even begin to attempt to use some of the things Revan learned.
So, nah. I'm sorry. I hate Revan. I really, really hate Revan and I'm not ashamed to admit it - and if you look at any of my threads involving him, the hate is there. But what you're doing is, in my opinion, ridiculous. There's no reason to downplay a character we don't like. Perhaps we won't defend him or her as much, but still.
Revan is definately one of the very greatest Sith of all time, and he's likely one of the most powerful.
Vader is not on par with people like Palpatine and Revan in achievements. He didn't really accomplish much, but rather - helped to execute some of Palpatine's plans. But, the credit doesn't go to him. It goes to the Emperor. Just because he was his right hand man doesn't mean much.
I will say though, you could argue that Vader had a major accomplishment in hunting down the Jedi after the declaration of the Empire.
You know, I just read some LotF, and I'm starting to think that Jacen's damn strong with the force, in some ways beyond Luke, but his strengths don't really lie in combat.
Sidious is - by far - the greatest Sith Lord ever. His accomplishments WTFpwn all of his predecessors, and he succeeded where they failed. However, Revan is definately up there. He managed to conquer a considerable portion of the galaxy via amazing tactics and military force - as well as the knowledge he managed to obtain in such a small amount of time. He also served as the direct inspiration for Bane's teachings (though I hate it), so if there wasn't Revan - Bane wouldn't have managed to institute the Rule of Two. Bane is also up there, for executing and perfecting the doctrine that allowed the Sith to survive for so long under the Jedi's radar. And, I suppose, Ragnos could also be considered a candidate for one of the best given that he managed to lead a Sith-based regime for a century (which is outstanding), though he didn't achieve anything militaristic or in the name of total dominance.
As for Krayt... people give so much hype about him, simply that he rules the galaxy. That is a considerable feat, but it is in no credit to him. He simply killed off the "true" Emperor and declared himself the head honcho, and the Empire he's leading can be credited to Sidious. But I will grant him that he deserves credit for "ruling the galaxy" given that only one other Sith Lord has done that.
Edit: Jacen's strength lies more in his broad knowledge. But he's a killer in combat, too.
Krayt's not even a proper sith; he's a fake, and could never be considered a great sith. Hell, Bane and Andeddu (and I'm guessing Nihilus too) didn't even recognise him as a sith.
Revan probably would be #2, if not for his turning back to the lightside. I'd honestly say it goes:
1. Darth Sidious - defeating the jedi order, and taking over the galaxy.
2. Marka Ragnos - ruling over the sith's golden age for centuries with an iron fist.
3. Darth Bane - Implimented the Rule of Two, and may well be the sith's chosen one.
4. Exar Kun - Destroyed the Library at Ossus, and kicked the jedi order's butt badman style.
Sidious is #1. This is clear
As much as I love Ragnos, Revan is definitely deserving of #2 because of his accomplishments, that trump everyone elses except Sidious.
Ragnos WOULD go in 3 due in part to him passing down ancient knowledge over the centuries, crowning the new DLOTS, helping future sith lords with ancient sith knowledge, etc. Not to mention he was the strongest and greatest of the ancietn sith. Bane and Kun would be 4 and 5, respectively.
Feb 1st, 2007 10:43 AM
