Gender: Male Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Okay: [SPOILER - highlight to read]: They moved the goddamn island.
Lost is a good show. Pretty well-made, nice tension, nice atmosphere. Plots are a bit stupid and weird at times, but... whaddaya gonna do?
I hate to sound like everybody else criticizing the movies, but I hate the 'religious' themes in both Narnia movies. I can appreciate it for the action and fantasy, but religion- unfortunately- plays an all-too large part. It wasn't quite as bad in the first flick (although that whole "sometimes you have to believe what you cannot see" thing was irritating), but in the second one? The whole idea was "If you don't have faith (in Aslan, who represents Jesus), you'll lose. If you believe, things will work out okay." This message left a sour taste.
Gender: Male Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Yeah. The Golden Compass trilogy (His Dark Materials) is one of my favorite books. The movie's pretty decent, but is has absolutely nothing on the book's quality.
I didn't have so much problem with the idea of faith/hope so much as the fact that the faith was directly directed at Aslan, clearly a figure representing Jesus. The moral of the story is that you'll win if you accept Jesus. When the kids act with lost faith in Aslan, they lose- this is like blatantly saying that atheism is bad. Humanity itself is not strong enough; only God can help. I have strong beliefs on this subjects, so I cannot enjoy a story that represents an idea that goes drastically against what I feel. And as for 'believing in the known'? Well, it's not so much that as the fact that the first Narnia teaches that one should believe in concepts which have no solid proof. In the story, Narnia did indeed exist, so the kids should have believed it. Is this an analogy to faith in god and the current status of education/atheism? Yeah. I can't buy it, though.
You've basically said that it's okay to have movies and books that drip with blatant support for atheism, but you take umbridge with movies that support faith or Christianity or other religions?
First, I liked the Golden Compass and I want to get around to reading His Dark Materials. When the Southern Baptists down here bitched and complained, I gave them the same speech I'm going to give you. It's not brainwashing kids into rejecting the idea of Jesus Christ, it's a remarkably written story that happens to have atheist undertones. Not a big deal.
That said, C.S. Lewis's Narnia saga is about a billion times more important to the world of literature than His Dark Materials and will be forever remembered. Pullman? Not so much. Likewise, in a practical sense, this world and its events have been dictated indirectly and otherwise by Christianity and religion since time immemorial. Not saying that it's right or wrong, but you need to get the hell over movies, books, and media with Christian themes, because odds are that they'll be here long after similar media outlets for atheism.
Seriously, what Gideon said. CS Lewis was a devout christian and wrote an allegory for children. The christian undertones are NOT STRONG ENOUGH compared to the book.
I just saw prince Caspian for the first time, what a piece of shit movie. In the books Caspian was not an idiot who couldn't follow the plan, peter did not have domestic issues, and there was actually dialouge. It was only an hour and a half long, another half an hour, and ironically, they wouldn't have me waiting for it to be over.
The older kids (caspian included) behaved like children, the dialogue was weak and could have been done way better, the story was askew when compared to the book, and the final fight scene was like a VERY weak sauce Helm's deep. remember the sea of orcs that attacked? not so here, you have 4 blocks of troops and a couple catapults attacking a force nearly the same size. And in the end, the trees save them... its a weak helm's deep. (btw, i loved the helms deep scene. it was so well excecuted)
I have no problem with the allegory in the Chronicles of Narnia books. It is one of the factors that make them great. The first movie followed the book exactly and was a great movie. The second one did not (or so I'm told- I haven't seen it yet) and everyone @ my school who saw it hated it.
@MC: You don't have to agree with a work's message to enjoy it. A friend who is enormously Right-Wing Christian in ideology loves (loved?) Boston Legal, despite its blatant liberal bias. Some of the greatest works of art in history have been inspired by religion or religious messages. I don't have to believe in God to marvel at the beauty of the Sistine Chapel or the Mosques crafted by religious hands, nor do I have to be "Saved" to appreciate excellent literature or art by those devoted to their god.
If you were starving, would you refuse help because those offering aid were motivated to do so because of religion? I don't think so. Great art feeds the soul, and I don't think the source matters- only the result.
Gender: Male Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
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And Gideon, Nemesis... well, I'll put it this way- when a work is not well executed enough, all it has left is its premise and ideas. In case of a movie like Prince Caspian, it's idea- that humans are unable to win via their own power, and instead must rely on pure 'faith'- flat out sickens me. That's because I believe in the power of humanity- I believe that humanity does things on its own, via its own ability, for better or for worse. I don't like it when somebody tells me I can't do something on my own, but must rely on the help of a 'higher entity'- be it God, Jesus, or Aslan.
Though, I can certainly admit I love religious art and Churches- thanks to its beauty, architecture, and history. It's well-made, you understand.
It's hard to describe, but art is created simply for beauty's sake. I look at a Church the same way, too. A movie- or a book- is vastly different, because when a movie relies on themes and ideas, I would prefer it if they are interesting, thought-provoking, or at least themes I can identify with. Caspian's premise is taking away from the ability of humanity, and I don't like that.
And, by the way, His Dark Materials is no where near the classic that the Chronicles are because of several reasons: it's a far more provocative, daring, dark, and mature work. It's not afraid to show the dark side of humanity and attack norms and ideas we- as a society- accept, most notably religion and the concept of God. When a huge amount of the U.S is composed of practicing Christians, and an even more huge amount of people believe in God, it's difficult to get a work that is most decidedly anti-religion and atheistic to be universally accepted and loved. The efforts of organizations like the Catholic League certainly help, too.
When it comes to actual literary quality, His Dark Materials is a far superior work to Narnia.
I'm not willing to talk about the execution of the film, because I haven't seen it yet. I won't argue with you about beliefs because from what you've said I can't find anything to disagree with you on. The only place that our opinions differ (thus far) is on the value of Christian themes in popular culture. It is possible for me to enjoy and value something inspired by Christian values, even though I disagree with the worldview it represents.
So if a contemporary work is well-made then you should have no problem with it. The Chronicles of Narnia (in book form) is a well made work of literature.
That is a valid point of view, but I would disagree that the purpose of a painting or sculpture is any different from a finely crafted book.
HDM has not faced the test of time. While it is a good read, I would not put Pullman on the same level as Lewis. Pullman suffers from pacing issues and his prose is not nearly as smooth as Lewis's. Pullman is near the top of today's pack of writers, but can't hope to compete (yet) with Lewis or Tolkien.
I cringed at this. While in practice I follow Pullman's creed, Lewis did a far better job of communicating and presenting his. As a humanist, the message of His Dark Materials is superior, but as a bibliophile I have to stand with the Chronicles.
Gender: Male Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
O-kay.
I haven't delved too deeply into these books, so I'm speaking from the POV of a regular reader and a dude who watches these movies.
The idea of a painting or a sculpture is to provoke the more superficial senses of beauty; it's rarely supposed to actually convey a message or have an 'idea'. Certainly not to the same degree as literature.
I look his prose much better than Lewis'. And please don't put Tolkien here; the man's writing style is outdated and overly 'artsy', using medieval language-styles.
Pullman's books don't excel because of their actual prose or writing; they do so because of the powerful characters and the incredibly thoughtful ideas.
Nah. The Chronicles is infinitely more simplistic than His Dark Materials- it's more optimistic and represents a more lightly-drawn version of humanity and war.
His Dark Materials contains themes and ideas far deeper and more intelligent. It also has a dark, pessimistic view of humanity's actions.
HMS was a rare experience for me; the sort of experience that left me with a big fat "WOW" on my face. The Chronicles are hardly on the same scale.
The bottom line is that C.S. Lewis and his works aren't just popular. If we were comparing this to music, your syllogism is that Lewis and his works are akin to Britney Spears and her albums -- highly popular but devoid of any real talent or ability. The cold truth to the matter is that they are more like Led Zeppelin -- not only obscenely popular but well regarded for quality. Pullman's works will likely be totally forgotten in another decade. Lewis's? Never.
This is basically an indirect admission on your part that you're a gigantic emo kid.
Seriously, when the hell is "dark pessimism" a sign of greatness or high quality? You, sir, are in need of serious emotherapy.
The fact that you're an atheist has nothing to do with that? Seriously, I'm all for realism and opposition to blind religious doctrines and zealots, but you've made yourself look like an atheist emo kid who has issues with the very concept of religion. With respect, MC, we have as many nutjob, retarded atheists in this world as we do nutjob, retarded Christians.
KMC Community Forums
Dec 6th, 2008 01:42 AM
FER TEA!!
