You have no point. You interpretate it wrong. Anakin had potential and proved it by overpowering Dooku. This actually happened. Dooku didn't forsee his limbs being torn off by the blade, he could've died immediately, this doesn't sound like toying with Anakin to me. This sounds like losing to me. Also, Rampant Ox, shut the hell up with your "awww.. But Dooku thought the tied up Sidious would come to his rescue!"
It's a lightsaber fight, it can be over in one second.
@Darth Glentract: Wow, the old 'Obi Wan made Anakin slip up, that means Anakin is weaker than Dooku as well' theory. It's flawed. And I can't picture Dooku being better than Mace as well.
Overlord has a point. You can't just expect someone to disarm, literally as well. If an opponent gets an oppertunity to strike at the head he probably will, and then you will be dead.....
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I'm not whining and complaining you stupid dumbf*ck. I have already stated facts and opinions it's your fault if your to much of a stupid a$$ to understand. Your one to be calling out fanboy, when you got DE Luke practically up your a$$. Don't point fingers, you sorry f*ck. . .
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The above image is not of Cyrax doing the "Charleston". It is of Deadpool disguised as Cyrax and mocking him by doing the "Charleston". That's just what he does...
Wasn't Dooku ordered to not kill Anakin, so he wasn't at his best really. Then in the chance he would be killed, Sidious would have stepped in. Course I read this on Wikipedia, so not saying I'm an expert
No, what I do is offer proof from an irrefutable source that negates your beliefs. Yours are opinions. Nothing more.
What's your point? Weren't you the one arguing that Kenobi was almost a non-factor in this entire argument?
Yes, Dooku was under the impression that Palpatine would save his ass if he got handed to him. But that wasn't an excuse for Dooku to go easy on Anakin. In the supposed "unlikely event" (as Sidious himself says) that Anakin gets the better of Dooku, he would interfere. But he didn't.
Point being? Perhaps he thought that he could best him simply with his lightsaber prowess. I don't argue that Dooku had more Force control than Anakin. Hell, Dooku has 75+ years of using the Force where Anakin has about 11. But, Anakin's raw power far exceeds Dooku's. This is about the duel.
Anakin > Dooku in lightsaber combat.
Dooku thought that Anakin would be a general, if he proved himself to Sidious.
Yup. Because, like Anakin and Palpatine, Dooku is very arrogant. It's these taunts that end up causing his downfall, anyway. His "hate" and "rage" are the things that give Anakin the power to defeat Dooku.
Dead wrong.
Sidious's quote means a hell of a lot. Aside from Yoda, Sidious is the one who knows more about Dooku as a Force-user and a warrior. Hell, he is the Count's master. To top it off, he's also been closely monitoring Anakin. He is perhaps the only person who can safely judge Dooku's powers in comparison to Anakin's.
Once again - Dooku's arrogance. He assumed. How was Palpatine's statement regarding Anakin and Dooku arrogant? He has no reason to delude himself - especially when he is the one who is obsessed with having the most powerful apprentice.
Once again - Yoda was arrogant to assume that he'd wipe Palpatine off the face of Coruscant. He was wrong because he, like Dooku, underestimated his opponent's strength and cunning.
About themselves, I totally agree.
An opinion supported by over a decade's worth of monitoring both Dooku and Anakin.
Simple. Obi-Wan knew Anakin. Far better than Dooku, and perhaps even better than Palpatine. He's spent years sparring with Anakin and fighting alongside him. He knows how he fights, his weaknesses, his aggression, and Kenobi had the psychological edge as well. Anakin was reckless. Go watch the commentary of RotS. I believe that Lucas credits Kenobi's victory to his patience and experience - though I may be mistaken.
It's not really about intellect. Anakin's not an idiot. He's a gifted pilot, a gifted tactition, and is a genius with anything mechanical. But he is reckless, impatient, and has a very weak will.
Anakin was never 'retarded' in either case.
Sidious didn't say "raw power". The script, commentary, Lucas, and Palpatine's own words make me believe that Anakin was simply more powerful than Dooku - at the time of RotS.
[QUOTE=6730560]Originally posted by Escape81 No, what I do is offer proof from an irrefutable source that negates your beliefs. Yours are opinions. Nothing more.
Everything i posted was fact. You just need to accept it.
What's your point? Weren't you the one arguing that Kenobi was almost a non-factor in this entire argument?
I did but I now realise I was wrong. Kenobi did far better than I gave him credit for.
Yes, Dooku was under the impression that Palpatine would save his ass if he got handed to him. But that wasn't an excuse for Dooku to go easy on Anakin. In the supposed "unlikely event" (as Sidious himself says) that Anakin gets the better of Dooku, he would interfere. But he didn't.
Of course it was an excuse for Dooku not to go hard!!!!! He didnt think there was any risk of being killed. This meant he could be arrogant without having to worry.
Point being? Perhaps he thought that he could best him simply with his lightsaber prowess. I don't argue that Dooku had more Force control than Anakin. Hell, Dooku has 75+ years of using the Force where Anakin has about 11. But, Anakin's raw power far exceeds Dooku's. This is about the duel.
Anakin > Dooku in lightsaber combat.
Im not arguing that Ankakin has far more raw power/potential. But he didnt know how to use it at that point. He bet the Count by sheer physical strength - Dooku got tired.
Dooku thought that Anakin would be a general, if he proved himself to Sidious.
Again THOUGHT. Dooku was being fooled by Sids. And this proves Dooku wasnt meant to kill him. However Anakin was going hard to kill the Count. This is hardly fair for Dooku.
Yup. Because, like Anakin and Palpatine, Dooku is very arrogant. It's these taunts that end up causing his downfall, anyway. His "hate" and "rage" are the things that give Anakin the power to defeat Dooku.
I agree. Dookus taunts are what angered Anakin. If Dooku had spent more time fighting and less time taunting Anakin probably wouldnt have won.
Dead wrong.
Sidious's quote means a hell of a lot. Aside from Yoda, Sidious is the one who knows more about Dooku as a Force-user and a warrior. Hell, he is the Count's master. To top it off, he's also been closely monitoring Anakin. He is perhaps the only person who can safely judge Dooku's powers in comparison to Anakin's.
No. You cant pass off quotes as facts. I posted examples before. They are usually blown completely out of proportion. We cant trust Sids quote either. He is a politician. You never know when they are lieing.
About themselves, I totally agree.
Thanks.
Basically, if the fight was fair Dooku would have won. However it was so much in Anakins favor its not funny.
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Half of that i agree with. But I read the novel today, and for some reason I kept thinking about your love of Dooku Rampant, wierd...
So anyway because of that, I went straight to were Dooku was deuling with Anakin and Obi-Wan. It said that at first Dooku was barely even using any effort he had at all, easily blocking Obi-Wan and Anakins Ataru, than Obi-Wan and Anakin switched to their REAL forms, and Dooku not only had to fight his cplete hardest JUST to keep up with Anakin and Obi-Wan, but he made several clumsy and rather embarrasing mistakes, jumpign on a table, than falling when the table buckled under his wieght...funyn crap like that.
So it seems that most of the duel, Dooku WAS going his hardest.
Anyway, Dooku was at a disadvantage right from the get go. He was outnumbered. Unfortunately he did get tired and because of this he lost. He wasnt a match physically for Skywalker. However in terms of skill he issuperior and in a fair fight Dooku would have won.
Oh,sorry,I don't speak ignorance. Your the ones getting owned in the debate.We're actually using proof,your just providing us with your own overbiased opinions.George Lucas(commentary),The ROTS Novel,and the Script, ALL three state that Dooku was going at his hardest.The only facts you have stated is how incredibly stupid you fanboys really are.And my name is my own,the fact that actually had to resort to making fun of my username proves that your an egotistical brat who thinks his opinion is higher than plain fact itself.Sorry,doesn't work that way in a debate.And the fact that you're arguing with YOUR opinion over Lucas' own words,when he CLEARLY stated in that commentary that Dooku was going at his hardest, is about as dumb as you fanboys can get.The novel,sketchy it may be,is still a higher canon than YOUR opinions.And it also clearly states Dooku ,stupidly,underestimating both Anakin and Obi-Wan,in the beginning and then getting seriously OWNed by them both in the middle of the duel.It also states, in the novel,that Dooku had to get Obi-Wan out of the fight otherwise he would be overwelmed and killed early on in the duel.And even after,he still got majorly OWNed by Anakin when going at his hardest(Yes,his HARDEST.Again,from Lucas' Commentary,the ROTS Novel,and the Script.).And where's your proof that can actually contradict Lucas' word(Who is the ULTIMATE source of canon),huh?Oh,thats right.You don't have any.I think you just about OWNed yourself right there,moron.
@Rampant Ox:Oh ,now you use that excuse?Where was it when we were talking about Anakin and Obi-Wan and Dooku in AOTC,huh?Don't try that petty excuse,old man Dooku knew exactly what he was getting into.It's not Anakin's and Obi-Wan's fault that Dooku wasn't as skilled as YOU claim.If he was,then HE wouldve walked away from that fight,not Anakin.
"All too easy..."
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Last edited by D-FENS on Jun 20th, 2006 at 09:38 AM
It was all a ruse: Palpatine was in fact Darth Sidious, and Dooku was his apprentice. But Dooku was unaware of Palpatine's master plan. The kidnapping was a test of a prospective new Sith apprentice. Blazing onto General Grievous' flagship -- the vehicle of escape for Dooku and his "captive" -- were the Jedi heroes Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. Once again Dooku dueled with the Jedi pair. He bested Kenobi, knocking the Jedi unconscious with a brutal Force push, but was unable to overpower Skywalker. Goading the fiery-tempered young man throughout the duel, Dooku thought he had the upper hand until Anakin outmaneuvered him.
Skywalker severed both of Dooku's hands and snatched the Sith Lord's red-bladed weapon. Dooku fell to his knees before Skywalker, who was now holding two lightsabers at his throat. "Kill him," advised Palpatine -- and Dooku fully realized that treachery was the way of the Sith. He was expendable, Dooku realized. Skywalker was the true prize, the gifted apprentice, the new Sith
That last line tells me that he thought Palpatine would save him. Also I think if Dooku had been told to kill Anakin he would have used force lightning and stuff to take out Anakin earlier on. Also Dooku obviously was not fighting seriously until the end of the duel which by that point it was to late for him to win. He was already worn out at that point. As for Palpatine's line about Anakin being younger and more power. Did you ever think that maybe he was saying that to make the Separatists feel safer. They just lost Dooku who they thought could protect them. So Palpatine needed to say something that would make them feel safe. Sidious is well known for his ability to lie. Also to the guy who was quoting stuff from the scripts. Please tell me where you got these scripts. I realy doubt you have real copies of the actual script. Also I am not a fanboy. I do not care much for Dooku and Anakin myself. The only PT character i could realy even be called a fanboy of is R2D2.
Keyword in your post is "I think.".And did you ever think that Sidious was right about Anakin being more powerful, considering because he was?Again,now everyone's using the "Well,Dooku was tired out so thats how Anakin won.",so what about in AOTC when Obi-Wan was done fighting Dooku,huh?What about when Anakin fought Dooku in that same exact scene?Dooku didn't look really tired to me after beating them both,and that was just about the same as the ROTS but with lower time and a different ending.Again,read my other post.All sources of canon state Dooku going at his hardest and still that not being enough to stop Skywalker.Remember,these are proof and canon,not your opinions(and I mean that to both Rampant Ox and Pyro Tyranus).
He was dueling his hardest at the end. By then it was too late. But he was just toying with them in the beginning. Also you should not even look at AOTC for reference. Unless you mean Dooku's arrogent attitude. Which we know in AOTC he was just playing around with Obi-Wan and Anakin. Also it is obvious he was doing this at the beginning of the ROTS fight. If he had been told to kill Anakin he would have killed him. He had plenty of openings to do so in that fight. There were several times that he could have blasted Anakin with force lightning but did not do so. In the commentary, Lucas may have said that Dooku was trying his hardest, but did you ever think that he ment there at the end of the fight. As for these so called scripts. I have yet so see proof that you have any, or even where you got them.
Did Lucas say "At the end of the fight he was going at his hardest"?No,he didn't,and if he did he wouldve specified it.And again,the keyword in your post is 'could',I can say: "Anakin could have beaten Obi-Wan.",it doesn't matter,it didn't happen.Check the TheForce.net,thats where I found the scripts that,again,state that Dooku was going all out in the duel,which overrites anyone else' opinions in this thread.Even the novel,which again,is higher canon than your opinion says that Dooku was going all out.Until you find me something that contradicts Lucas' word(which,again,is the ultimate source of canon),this discussion is done.
Well,if you do somehow manage to refute Lucas'(he IS the man who made the movies) words with your own,let me know,until then,I'm going to bed.
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Last edited by D-FENS on Jun 20th, 2006 at 10:39 AM
despite theforce.net being a great site. It is still techinquely unofficial. We know that Dooku thought Palpatine would not betray him. Just look at the count Dooku page on starwars.com which is official. http://www.starwars.com/databank/ch...ooku/index.html
Skywalker severed both of Dooku's hands and snatched the Sith Lord's red-bladed weapon. Dooku fell to his knees before Skywalker, who was now holding two lightsabers at his throat. "Kill him," advised Palpatine -- and Dooku fully realized that treachery was the way of the Sith. He was expendable, Dooku realized. Skywalker was the true prize, the gifted apprentice, the new Sith
that is a paragraph from that page. This is how we know Dooku thought Palpatine would save him. How is he fighting his hardest when he we know the he did not use every opportunity to hurt Anakin to his advantage. We know Dooku was trying to get Anakin to turn to the darkside from the words he said to Anakin. Also if someone thinks they will be safe reguardless of the outcome they tend not to fight as hard. If they know their life is on the line they tend to take advantage of every opening they can get just so they can survive. An example is the end of fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Obi-Wan saw an opening to win the fight and come out alive so he took it.
Jun 19th, 2006 09:31 AM
