actually most of them were academics so if your criticism is that they are linked to academic institution that secure government funding to carry out reseach and are as such inherintly biased then its worth noting that David Griffin's centre for process studies is a branch of the claremont school of theology which is...a private academic institution which secures government funding to carry out research as well as donations
not to mention that Griffin himself has connections to government institutions throughout his career just like all the researchers involved in conducting the research involved for the PM article
of course its easier for you to just say they're been gotten to by the big bad government without any proof of that whatsoever
here's a list of the people involved along with full biographies of their professional qualifications in dealing with the research into 9/11
infact here's pretty much everyone...please try and discredit their information on a point for point basis and show me how a theology expert is more of an authority on each issue than any of the following and their respective involvment in the 9/11 investigation
Air Crash Analysis
Cleveland Center regional air traffic control
Bill Crowley special agent, FBI
Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants
Richard Gazarik staff writer, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.
Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes
Ed Jacoby Jr. director,
New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Cindi Lash staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)
Wallace Miller coroner, Somerset County, PA
Robert Nagan meteorological technician, Climate Services Branch, National Climatic Data Center
Dave Newell director, aviation and travel, VF Corp.
James O’Toole politics editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pennsylvania State Police Public Information Office
Jeff Pillets senior writer,
The Record, Hackensack, NJ
Jeff Rienbold director, Flight 93 National Memorial, National Park Service
Dennis Roddy staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Master Sgt. David Somdahl public affairs officer,
119th Wing, North Dakota
Air National Guard
Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene
Air Defense
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander,
U.S. Air Force
Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer,
Tyndall Air Force Base
Boston Center regional air traffic control
Laura Brown spokeswoman,
Federal Aviation Administration
Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation
Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board
Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board
Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer,
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer,
Andrews AFB
Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command
John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org
Hank Price spokesman, Federal
Aviation Administration
Warren Robak RAND Corp.
Bill Shumann spokesman,
Federal Aviation Administration
Louis Walsh public affairs officer, Eglin AFB
Chris Yates aviation security editor, analyst, Jane’s Transport
Aviation
Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology
Robert Everdeen public affairs, Northrop Grumman
Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert
Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF) Rocky Mountain bureau chief, Aviation Week
Bill Uher News Media Office, NASA Langley Research Center
Col. Ed Walby (Ret. USAF)
director, business development, HALE Systems Enterprise, Unmanned Systems, Northrop Grumman
Image Analysis
William F. Baker member, FEMA Probe Team; partner, Skidmore, Owings, Merrill
W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. senior vice president, CTL Group; director,
FEMA Probe Team
Bill Daly senior vice president, Control Risks Group
Steve Douglass image analysis consultant, Aviation Week
Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D. founder, TREC; video forensics expert.
Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. professor of geology, Arizona State University
Rob Howard freelance photographer; WTC eyewitness
Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. professor of geophysics,
University of California, San Diego
Structural Engineering / Building Collapse
Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D. senior engineer, American Institute of Steel Construction
David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report
Robert Clarke structural engineer, Controlled Demolitions Group Ltd.
Glenn Corbett technical editor, Fire Engineering; member, NIST advisory committee
Vincent Dunn deputy fire chief (Ret.), FDNY; author, The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety
John Fisher, Ph.D. professor of civil engineering, Lehigh University; professor emeritus, Center for Advanced Technology; member, FEMA Probe Team
Ken Hays executive vice president, Masonry Arts
Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D. professor of computer science, Purdue University; project director, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University
Won-Young Kim, Ph.D. seismologist, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University
William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA
John Labriola freelance photographer, WTC survivor
Arthur Lerner-Lam, Ph.D. seismologist; director,
Earth Institute, Center for Hazards and Risk Research, Columbia University
James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee
Steve Riskus freelance photographer; eyewitness, Pentagon crash
Van Romero, Ph.D. vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology
Christine Shaffer spokesperson, Viracon
Mete Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering, Purdue University; member, Pentagon Building Performance Report; project conception, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University
Shyam Sunder, Sc.D.
acting deputy director, lead investigator, Building and Fire Research Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology
Mary Tobin science writer, media relations, Earth Institute, Columbia University
Air Crash Analysis
Cleveland Center regional air traffic control
Bill Crowley special agent, FBI
Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants
Richard Gazarik staff writer, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review
Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.
Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes
Ed Jacoby Jr. director,
New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Cindi Lash staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)
Wallace Miller coroner, Somerset County, PA
Robert Nagan meteorological technician, Climate Services Branch, National Climatic Data Center
Dave Newell director, aviation and travel, VF Corp.
James O’Toole politics editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pennsylvania State Police Public Information Office
Jeff Pillets senior writer,
The Record, Hackensack, NJ
Jeff Rienbold director, Flight 93 National Memorial, National Park Service
Dennis Roddy staff writer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Master Sgt. David Somdahl public affairs officer,
119th Wing, North Dakota
Air National Guard
Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene
Air Defense
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander,
U.S. Air Force
Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer,
Tyndall Air Force Base
Boston Center regional air traffic control
Laura Brown spokeswoman,
Federal Aviation Administration
Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation
Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board
Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board
Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer,
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer,
Andrews AFB
Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command
John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org
Hank Price spokesman, Federal
Aviation Administration
Warren Robak RAND Corp.
Bill Shumann spokesman,
Federal Aviation Administration
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
Whose talking about the Sycamores/Tree's, Jaden?
That's a very weak point, I'm talking about the fact that the CNN vids do not match up with other eyewitness shots:
-The Towers are too big in Hezarkhani's video
-The impact hole is in the wrong spot
-Scafolding is missing from one of the buildings
-Lamp post are missing
ETC
You seem to be stuck with debating the Tree's, I wonder why.
I hope you know that Sycamores grow 2 feet per year, right?
so which one is it you're are claiming to be fake...given that all news ones shown above were being broadcast live....because the trajectories and plane wing tilt are the same from the hezarkani impact as the techmac and the other impacts in the other videos
as for the trees...if you did your own research you would realise that sycamore trees can actually grow up to 6ft a year...not 2...making a possible growth in 7 years of 42 ft...most websites list it as "fast growth rate" which is defined in botany as 25in or greater per year
as for me "stuck debating trees"...mmm...clearly my posts today show otherwise...besides i was merely using the video you posted...in which everything matched up besides the trees...which i explained
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
Yet, the plane flight path in the Tecmac and CBS are completely contradicting even though it's pretty much the same shot? One video show's the plane diving towards the south tower from above versus the other shows the plane climbing from the North tower. That's an impossible contradiction, Jaden.
Just like the Moussaiou and CBS replay show the plane coming from completely different sides despite having virtually similar angles.
You can't nit pick that point, either the video's show the plane coming from the same area in similar shots or the vids is inadmissible. Nevermind the plane melting into the building.
Like I said before, the Tree's are the weakest point which is why your stuck debating them. I never mentioned them or hezarkhani's vid as my main point. Why you seem to believe that was what I was reffering to specifically, God only know's. Yeah, you did a good job addressing parkers post, while dancing around mines.
Those Tree's have been around for 60 years, I think they would stop growing at some point mate.
Now tell what did it match up with Jaden?
You just showed a crappy image and claimed they match, and I showed you a video where the Hezarkhani videos completely contradict some amateur pictures.
Nevermind the anamolies like:
-Missing Scafolding from Hezarkhani
-Hezarkhani and amateur shots towers size don't match up
-Impact Zone does not match
ETC.
__________________
Last edited by Classic NES on Jan 6th, 2008 at 01:05 AM
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
As for the ones I'm claiming to be fake, I vote most of them as canidates.
But, that's not my job to pick the fakes, it's the media's job since they showed contradicting videos. Oh by the way, during 9/11 there were only five news outlets really broadcasting: CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox, and WB11. I find it odd that they were sharing vids and commentary.
once again if you did your research sycamore trees grow to full maturity at 100-120 years....
and the crappy image is a still shot from the video that YOU posted...so it cant be evidence for you and not for me can it
and if you're claiming a video to be fake...then post the evidence to an expert analysis of the original recordings...or simply just dont post
i repeatedly cite the actual independant researches who physically carried out the work on the actual evidence recovered from the attacks
again with the "melting into the building"...as i stated by the fact that your video isn't clear enough to show the windows of the building and infact the sides of the building look like solid grey blocks...then you can hardly use it to conduct a detailed examination of damage at particular instants of the footage...especially not at the frame rate a home video recorder takes footage at
also how is it you propose that footage was doctored live as the events happened...
no 2 cameras were placed at the exact same location so it would be fae easier to doctor a video over lapping 2 blank areas of sky onto a single background...which given that the consenus is not of the same plane yet the 2 pieces of footage show then to be different sizes and of different resolutions...would indicate that's exactly what has been done
its called "perspective"
if you wish for an example of how elevation and perspective effect perception of planes i suggest you look up something simple..the red arrows....they fly toward each other and to the observer on the ground appear at the same height on the same trajectory...yet when viewed from the same height as the planes shows them to be of different heights on different trajectories....all a matter of when the footage was taken from and what elevation in relation to the observed object
regardless...how even if your claims were true
how do you propose that 2 pieces of footage were simaltanously doctored and broadcast by 2 different news agency with no delay?
and which do you propose shows the true events
or is it far more likely that they have been poorly doctored in the years after 9/11 by conspiracy theorists such as yourself?
one of your videos also happens to be completely wrong as to where they said the hezarkani footage was shot from....it implies it was shot from the trees to the right of the building when looking down from the WTC...which isn't correct...it was shot from the left of that building not the right as the video would suggest...
i've just realised that its 3:30 am here and i have work soon so i better get some sleep but i'll post more tomorrow
and yes...i did a more thourough job on parkers posts because he's coming to the table with a bit more than "i say the videos are fake but i dont have anyone to prove it"
go find some expert testimony to back up your case cause God knows i have....repeatedly
not to mention the best argument of all...the counter to the claims the CIA did it....so they attacked themselves at the pentagon did they?
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
You mind telling me what's admissible towards evidence in general?
Because it seems you can ignore or claim something is not evidence, when it is. What does "It's not evidence to me" is supposed to mean?
Appeal to Authority Fallacy. You don't need an expert to tell you that the planes have contradicting flight path's and that real planes do not melt into buildings.
These are anamolies that anyone with common sense and eye's can point out. Are you saying you have neither?
No amount of bad resolution can make a plane melt into a building, Jaden. As for the windows, why don't you ask the people who filmed or endorse the video why it has no windows. I'm not defending the video, So, if you ask me why it has no windows, I'm simply gonna tell you that it's fake.
New's stations have a delay time before they air a broadcast. Made a thread about it way back when, I'll bump it.
Or it would be easier to insert 2-D planes right before the broadcats and crop the same shots over and over. Making them look different, when they are the same.
How it's possible to have similar shots of the buildings, but the planes come from complete different sides and approach behavior?
If the buildings have similiar perspectives in "different" than so should the planes. They don't, they have completely different behavior and completely opposite approach directions.
Case and point Tec Mac and CBS.
Furthermore, that example is flawed because they are two different planes in your pic. There was only one plane that hit the South Tower, Jaden. So, no dice.
Which they are.
News stations have a delay before they broadcast. If you had satelite, you could catch some of the feeds. I made a thread about it before, I can bump it.
LOL
Just go to the archives themselves and you'll see the vids.
Still doesn't explain how hezarkhani's vid:
Has missing lamp post, Missing Scafolding, and does not match up with the personal stills during 9/11.
__________________
Last edited by Classic NES on Jan 6th, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
I don't need expert testomony to show something that requires common sense. The video's are fake and your in denial. Bad resolution cannot explain how planes melt into buildings and furthermore how can huge media conglomerates not afford good camera's? I can understand the home video's, but not this:
That's from PBS, Jaden.
So, that bad resolution argument fails.
As for who did it, who know's?
I suspect: PNAC members, Mainstream Media, Larry Silverstien, Rudolph Gulliani, and the Head of the CIA [Not the CIA it's self]
I have more, but these are just suspects. I can't say with certainty who did and how. But, I can say that it was an inside job, just base on the fact that they aired fake videos.
__________________
Last edited by Classic NES on Jan 6th, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
Also, different perspectives cannot radically effect plane behavior, Jaden. A plane cannot ascend in one shot while descending in another shot [ignoring the fact that the shots are the same] and claim to be the same plane.
Your example featuring two planes is dubious, because there was only one plane that struck the south tower.
As for which video's I think are real, I feel that until these video's are recognized for what they are. . .fakes. All of them are fakes, and the fact that your asking this question means your aware that they are fake.
you posted a video and used it as evidence...i took a still from that video that you posted and you said it was "crappy"
it also happens to be the same vid you used to prove your melting into the building point
well its either crappy or its valid...so i think it is you who needs to decide which
you need an expert if detecting forged video footage to validate that the footage is genuine...i mentioned nothing about the flight paths...
in science you cant merely say "these findings are correct" and expect to be taken seriously...if you're implying something as serious as a massive cover up of an act of genocide then i think the least you can do is provide expert testimony to prove your case...otherwise it would be laughed out of court...so to speak
so you slate the videos quality yet forward it as a piece of evidence to show damage
let me ask you this...if you cant see the windows...how can you expect to see damage to the windows?...
my final point on the topic of the "fake videos" is...where exactly would these fake videos fit in the grand scheme...what would be there purpose...its not like they would make them to have it look like a plane flew into them when it really didn't....just so they could blow it up
given the thousands....possibly 10's or even 100's of thousands of eye witnesses and amatuer footage that has never been shown by one of the evil news corporations...show that it did happen
if you're not going to bother posting links to your arguments then why bother posting at all?
so post evidence for the claim....the only news network i know of that considered a delay in live broadcasting was the bbc and even then only in the wake of beslan
ever look up at a plane and cant tell whether its flying level...ascending or descending?...yes....point dismissed
my point isn't dubious...my point is its all about the vantage point as to how a plane altitude and trajectory are percieved to the viewer
so every piece of footage taken of the world trade centre massacre is fake...so i guess you're implying that it didn't happen...or at least that a plane didn't crash into the towers?
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
I said it was crappy because it is fake, and no matter how crappy it is it cannot make planes meld into buildings or erase windows.
Nah, I posted more then one vid showing the melting E.G. Spegiel TV & PBS shot.
And, I chose fake, because crappy video doesn't make planes meld into building and if it is crappy why would rich media conglemerates use crap videos for the shot of the century. Your explanation is just plane bad.
You don't need an expert to point out missing objects and contradicting flight path's, jaden. I don't care if you didn't mention it, because it's major evidence of video fraud.
If your claiming that "Melting into buildings" is a video based pheonomenon
Then your gonna have to show what kind and how does it happen in several video's?
We are not in court Jaden, so, no dice. What major testimony should I show to prove that the plane path's contradict, Hezarkhani's vid doesn't match up with any personal stills, and that all of the above is impossible?
That requires simple common sense, which your forfeiting right now.
Wha?
Jaden, the windows are not needed to show damage. The fact that a hole appears much later into the video when there should be one on impact and the fact that the building heals up is impossible.
Your attention only needs to be on the walls. Furthermore, how does lack of windows make it hard to see damage? Windows were not the only thing damaged, jaden.
Beats me, they are still fake, though.
Don't have too, The anamolies in the video's are impossible. So, what other possibility besides a fake can be mentioned?
Gender: Male Location: The sewers of the Big City!
Except that we are not looking up at the plane, Jaden. The vid was not taken on ground level. We are litterally looking at the plane, Jaden. Furthermore are seriously telling me that you cannot tell that the CBS shot is not diving in the video.
If you can't then your lying or insane, your choice.
i have no motive other than to point out the flaws in peoples conspiracy theories to be honest...i'm not here to defend official version...if it's not true then i may even be helping to uncover that fact by attacking the conspiracy theories it may make their originators take stock and look for stronger evidence to support their claims or it may make them look at another alternate set of events
i think one thing all conspiracy theorists agree on is that there is already a long list of theories about 9/11 that were completely and utterly blown out the water and have subsequently been conveniently forgotten about by those who initially proposed them...and who have since went on to propose different and even entirely conflicting theories from the original
my main point is this though
if you go by the immediate position that anyone who worked on the investigation...regardless of their credentials and professionalism...was hired by the government and as such is lieing and spreading disinformation and concealling the truth then you're immediatly invalidating your own arguments....especially if those arguments then consist of "yeah but they're gonna stay quiest cause the government threatened their families"...i mean...seriously...
not only that you also cast doubt on every piece of work that these people have ever carried out and you do so without any shred of evidence whatsoever
another point is that there is criticism that it was the US government who sanctioned the investigation into the event...well who else has the resources to mount a thorough investigation....clearly you can have private companies forward the capitol for it cause apparently they're involved in cover ups and evil world controlling endevours as well
my problem with your arguments is that you've watched a video on youtube and believed it wholeheartedly without checking its veracity (and going back to the trees...cause its a perfect example...you believed they grew at 2ft a year because the video told you this...not because you bothered to check whether it was true or not)
i only ask that double standards not be used...people accuse those who dont agree with the conspiracy theories as "blind" "ignorant" "sheep" who "swallow everything the mainstream evil media tells them"
well clearly most conspiracy theorists do exactly that
actually to be fair many of them aren't really conspiracy theorists at all...they simply believe wholeheartedly someone elses version of what happened....and dont even attempt to check how qualified that person is to speak on the subject with authority
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Jan 6th, 2008 12:03 AM
