His powers arn't as advanced he can't just create stuff per se. Magic is draining upon him and its not as all powerful as most Wizards are seen. In Tolkeins world magic isnt as overt as we see it in Harry Potter with spells to protect or kill, its subtle its manipulation of the weather or the elements to totally shield himself doesn't happen, much like he didn't do this when he fought the Balrog.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Well actually, Vader is very proficiant when it comes to pushing people, he pushed a person like 30m in a comic, and he died when he crashed into the wall. He can force crush people, which destroyes all your internal organs, like your lungs and destroys all your bones. Oh, and his suit is fire resistant.
__________________
Necessity is the mother of inventions.
(Don't be a pig, get an Icejaw sig.)
I am presuming for purposes of this thread that the restraints that Eru and the Valar put on Gandalf are lifted.
Vader cannot win this. Gandalf cannot be killed. If you destroy his body he will just reincarnate, so there may be a delay between rounds but Gandalf can just keep coming back.
Second, Gandalf is almost as powerful as Sauron and about as powerful as a Balrog. Gandalf made a shield that blocked a downward swipe from a being who can punch through granite...if Gandalf puts that shield up, Vader is not going to be able to hit him.
__________________ Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures.
J.R.R. Tolkien, "Of Beren and Luthien" from the Silmarilion
Why would you assume that the restrictions ar lifted. That would imply that Gandalf was no longer in the form of Gandalf it would in fact be Olorin Vs Vader and then that may be different. Plus it was Eru that sent Gandalf back, he didn't chose to come back himself. He was sent back. I don't think every time he would be sent back ad infinitanium. Gandalf even as Olorin was afraid of Sauron, he thought of himself as weaker than him. And whilst he is strong, the only one capable of taking up the one ring and becoming a new lord of the rings.
In the books it is hotly contested that Balrogs do not look like the film portrayal they are said to be about the same height as a man but more fearsome. I think it mentions that they are surrounded by shadow. They are not massive, massive fire breathing demons with wings.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Because to work out logically this fight must take place in a neutral battleground where all their powers work as described.
The only place where no return is allowed to from the Undying Lands is Arda. This is by act of Eru when he destroyed Numenor, made Arda round and allowed the Straight Path only one way and only openable by Elves fleeing Middle Earth.
Personally I think Manwe at Eru's allowance and orders sent Gandalf back, rather than Eru himself. But that is quibbling over semantics.
Also, since there are no midicholorians on Arda, Vaders powers would not work there.
As to the Balrogs, when they were still Maia they could change shape like every other maiar, you know grow a new body.
The confusion over the form of the Balrogs comes from the fact that Tolkien invented the idea for another non-LotR work. In that work they were basically a really powerful demonic cavalry who looked more or less like men but were bigger.
When he pulled the idea into the LotR, he changed it quite a bit. The Balrogs described in the Silmarilan seem to resemble somewhat the creatures seen in Jackson's movies.
And IIRC Gothmog has wings and one or two other instances describe Balrogs as having wings... but I don't have the quotes off hand.
There are tons of essays and articles fighting that fight one way or another.
__________________ Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures.
J.R.R. Tolkien, "Of Beren and Luthien" from the Silmarilion
But Gandalf did not just grow a new body (like Seamonkies) instead he was sent back to his old body, he awoke naked reborn. He did not reform in the undying lands and think "Oh bugger". He says himself he passed beyond the circles of the world. The only two things that lie out there are Eru and the Void. To further the point, the Valar cannot make or restore life they can form the body's but cannot instill in it a soul, this has to be done by Eru.
If both use their full powers then Ganda;f is still tied to his mortal body. If he unleashed the power of the true Maiar spirit then it ceases to be Gandalf v Vader and becomes Olorin V Vader in which case I think Olorin would win.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Last edited by Rogal Dorn on Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:15 PM
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It doesn't matter.
You win a fight by making the opponent unable to fight back, which means you can knock them out, kill them, cut off a limb ect.
If Vader kills gandalfs mortal body then he wins automatically.
The match isn't going to wait a day or two for Ganndfalf to come back to life, and he certainly isn't just going to come back instantaneously. So yes, if gandalf dies, Vader wins the match because their is no "rounds".
Besides, who says vader will kill him? Force crushing his legs and arms will suffice as Gandalf won't die, just lose all his limbs.
Or vader could just force choke him until Gandalf is unconscious, he will win then to.
The Undying Lands are no longer on Arda. They were removed by Eru when he made the Arda spherical after he destroyed Numenor.
They are somewhere else. Gandalf cannot, as per the Silmarilion leave the universe. All the Ainur who entered are bound until the end of time not to leave it, unless they are ejected ala Morgoth.
Gandalf's spirit was sent to the Halls of Mandos or somewhere else in the Undying Lands, where he would have reincarnated in a new body, but he was sent back to his old body and he was able to reanimate it.
__________________ Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures.
J.R.R. Tolkien, "Of Beren and Luthien" from the Silmarilion
Movie Gandalf was capable of making a shield that resisted an over hand blow from a Balrog, a begin who was pounding through solid granite walls.
I'd like to see Vader generate even half that much for.
Ok, and as to the force being used to crush Gandalf, his body in the movies resisted falling thousands of feet. He did not die from the impact and was mostly unharmed. Let's see Vader generate that much force.
__________________ Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures.
J.R.R. Tolkien, "Of Beren and Luthien" from the Silmarilion
Gender: Male Location: The epitome of my evolution.
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A) The movies aren't even considered cannon, the books are.
B) It took Gandalf at least five seconds to make that shield, more then enough time for Vader to simply slice his arms off or just force choke him.
The movies just showed the two falling toward a lake, and it's never described what actually happened after that other then the fight at the top of Durin's tower. (It is Durin's tower right?) For all we know, The Baelrog might have just flown away, with Gandalf riding on top of him. It's not like Gandalf just impacted against the ground, then got up and walked away.
Gandalf is almost as powerful as Sauron who is as or more powerful than a standard Balrog.
__________________ Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures.
J.R.R. Tolkien, "Of Beren and Luthien" from the Silmarilion
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Nov 14th, 2006 12:14 AM
