Hm, although I don't know enough about Darkness, first I would like to ask if that fight he had with Superman canon? If so, shit-stomp in favor of Jackie.
Just in reply to the FTL question- no matter what speed they're travelling, light will appear to be travelling at the speed of light relative to the observer.
Also, I'd say that DBZ fighters as a whole are OP'd compared to most other series, but i'm not sure how strong Iron Man is.
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Well I know when Nappa lifts up his index and middle finger. He destroyed an entire city.
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Yeah and then he died by a little ki blast. IM will over power him, Nappa can destroy cities all he wants, it really wouldn't help in a fight against an opponent that doesn't stand still and is more powerful than him.
Iron Man isn't more powerful, Nappa without exerting himself obliterated multiple cities by raising two fingers. Stark can't do anything on that level and he can't take an attack like that and keep going. Vegeta's blast that killed Nappa was charged, Nappa didn't even charge his that destroyed cities, which he and Vegeta stood right in the middle of. Stark isn't faster than him either especially in combat. How many times has Stark gotten his ass handed to him by brutes like Hulk, Red Hulk just did it, Thor just did it, even Bucky was just slapping him around.
IM is more powerful. Just because Nappa destroyed a city doesn't make him more powerful since he was offed by a ki blast. He can't take what he can dish out, and I doubt IM will stand in front of his ki blast or even give him the chance to throw a blast.
Tony doesn't have to do anything on that level since Nappa was killed by less. Tony can off him by beating him physically or blasting him away (and this isn't ki blasts). And Tony's armor can survive nuke level attacks and has taken blasts and hits from Thor, Sentry, and Surfer; Nappa is way less of a threat.
It doesn't matter if it was charged or not, the effects of the blast prove that it wasn't city nuking.
They were in between the surrounding blast and wasn't directly inside the blasts. And Tony doesn't use ki, so Nappa won't be standing in front of any of Tony's attacks.
Tony is way faster and fight with characters superspeed often. Nappa's fast, but Tony's armor is fast enough to adjust to and surpass Nappa in speed.
Tony has went toe to toe with Hulk, Surfer, Sentry and Thor before, all who will make short work of Nappa. He may not be as powerful as them, but he's strong enough to hold his own and he's beaten them before. Tony doesn't have to worry about Nappa being much a physical treat since his armor has taken hit from characters way above Nappa in strength. Nappa's only choice is to fly and shoot ki blasts, but Tony will just Dodge the blasts, close the distance between the two of them with his superior speed, or just counter with blasts of his own.
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you do know invisable woman can do way more then just go invisable she can make force feilds inside peoles heads and either sqeezes there brains or bust open there skulls ans she can just trap any kind of energy blast
__________________ "This must be the power my master spoke of"
I'm not sure there's any definitive answer to whether Nappa is or isn't faster than IM.
However, you can't use Vegeta's final attack on Nappa as proof of his weakness- he was already beaten then, Vegeta just executed him. Secondly, as long as a Z fighter can output more energy than an attack contains, he can cancel it out (e.g Raditz, at 1200 power, could block Goku's ~1000 power Kamehameha, but not Piccolo's 1400 power Special Beam Cannon- so for Ki blasts, Nappa could take exactly as much as he could dish out, unless he doesn't have time to react/is taken by surprise. I think the same applies to physical projectiles as well- Raditz was able to catch the shell that the farmer fired- presumably protecting himself by creating a ki shield at the level of his skin- whereas Vegeta's tail was cut off when Yajirobe ambushed him. So if Iron Man can get the jump on Nappa, then he can certainly damage him.
Also Trunks' sword cut straight through Frieza- either he was so fast Frieza couldn't defend himself, or the strength of the blow was greater than Frieza could block. So if IM is actually stronger than Nappa (including Nappa's ki) then he would win.
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I know all about Hulk and his homing, but Stark has never blitz him or anyone for that matter who has any decent speed. So this talk of Stark downing Nappa before he can raise two fingers is bull.
Nappa didn't destroy A city he destroyed multiple cities by lifting his fingers. and he did it effortlessly, if he puts effort into it he can pull a Roshi or Piccolo and take out at least a moon. Busting single cities wasn't a big deal before dragonball ended. Also the finger move wasn't a beam, he won't be dodging it and he won't be tanking it. It affected a good portion of Earth simultaneously. Tony is put down by far below these level of attacks regularly.
Tony is not blasting him away, Nappa is plenty fast enough to not be hit and he stood right in the center of his own mulitple city obliterating blast unharmed. and yes he and Vegeta stood directly in the center it didn't blow around them it blew on top of them. The ground right below their feet is scorched clean like everywhere else. Also Stark is not some physical beast, by this point in dragonball they are at least on par with him physically. As far as taking blasts from Sentry,Thor and Surfer. I already know without needing to see it that Surfer held back, Thor held back and we saw how well Stark's armor held out against a serious Thor the last time they fought, he was annihilated. Sentry is so up and down its ridiculous and the farthest we've seen him cut loose was against WWH and compare a few blocks they destroyed to the multiple cities Nappa one shotted on a whim by raising his fingers.
Stark is not that fast, not on Earth. Its arguable if he's faster than Nappa, if he is its not enough to make much different, and he definitely isn't faster combat wise which he's proven his whole career. In between Bucky embarrassing him and dodging his beams Bucky fired a submachine gun at Stark and all he could do was raise his hands to try and fail to block the bullets, Master Roshi was grabbing submachine gun bullets with his bare hands in dragonball.
Vegeta's blast was charged and Nappa had already been beaten broken and paralyzed by Goku when Vegeta killed him. Dbzers use their ki to amp their stats, Nappa was broken with barely enough to move his arm at this point. Also Vegeta's blast was shot far into the air so saying it was weaker than Nappa's because it didn't blow cities is incorrect. The much stronger Vegeta took a good amount of time charging it and Nappa did his on a whim, Vegeta's was obviously more powerful.
Stark can not compare to a serious Hulk or Thor and he can't hang with them especially lately. Thor mopped the floor with him, he needed his "hulkbuster" armor for Hulk and was still demolished. Stark has taken beatdowns regularly from people far below Nappa since he started.
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Really there is NO notable change in background in that fight that supports the premise they were moving faster than light. How do u know that the stars in one arent the same as the stars in another panel. They are all simply dots with not much definition or emphasis placed on their drawing. We know they are fighting in space therefore we expect to see stars in the background. But there is nothing there that indicates any form of FTL movement ( save as i said the last scan on SS board but they werent really doing any manoevres at that point)
Also the reason i say that is because guys like Hulk and thor who basically are bricks and it is widely known have little to no form of punching speed have been able to send guys hurtling at high speeds into orbit. Would we say that they were able to do this because of their speed and therefore begin to use such speed arguements in debates? I highly doubt it. This is becauase despite their low punching speed, their strength enabled them to send a person hurtling beyond escape velocity. IMO this is how most comics are written with speed having much less to do with punching power than strength.
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I never thought Raditz used and kind of ki shield to block the bullet, he just caught it - Goku took a bullet to the head in the first chapter and it just gave him a bruise.
Yajirobe has super strength, also, and a saiya-jin tail seems to be weaker than the rest of their body.
Did I say Tony would blitz him that fast?
So is practically every DBZ character, since most of the attacks that hurt them or kill them are way below citybusting....
Yet they have taken those higher attacks too.
I doubt that, considering he has partially lifted things weighing millions of tons.
With the Extremis armor he is
Pointing out low - ends and ignoring the rest is dishonest.
The scene from space was exaggerated since a few pages later it showed a TV reporter thinking it was an earthquake that had left a few cities without communication
Because they are in different positions and formations?
Look up in the sky at night, you can pick out the constellations, to see different constellations you'd have to go out of the solar system. Yet the patterns in those panels show no consistent constellations - maybe some of the same stars, but the patterns are changing - meaning they are moving FTL
I already explained it to you - and why is it so impossible for it to be FTL? We know Surfer and Runner can both go FTL, and the stars in the panels show they were. Why is that so hard to accept?
What do you mean, "no punching speed"? Thor has been able to swing Mjolnir at FTL speeds (stated many times) and has there ever been any evidence that Hulk's punches are particularly slow, or any limit ever shown for his punching speed? You're just grasping at straws here.
Just because Hulk, for example, can move his fists that fast doesn't mean he can run that fast
No matter how strong you are, you can't punch someone faster than light unless your fist is moving faster than light. There is nothing in the comic suggesting anything else. Honestly, they were able to react on the way to the sun and back, and Superman is able to evade obstacles at FTL speed - what do you need for him to throw punches at FTL speed? Some kind of direct narration stating it? Because that kind of thing rarely if ever happens even when it's obvious, so you need to learn to just connect the dots and not try to make excuses for it.
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Different positions and formations? Are u kidding me? Surfer has had numerous fights in space where in evry single damn panel the positions of the stars are different from the last one. His fight against midnight son, his fight against champion,his fight against Firelord, his fight against legacy. The stars in between panels were drawn in different positions in practically all of those fights. It CERTAINLY DOES NOT mean that all those fights were going on faster light. There is practically no emphasis or defintion in the drawings of the stars in such fights and certainly not enough to make the assumption that they are moving faster than light. Not even close.
We know that surfer and runner can move faster than light yes but the stars in the panels do not at all indicate that they were fighting faster than light. Not at all.
Further mjolnir itself has the ability to move FTL, its not because of thors personal speed that it occurs. And no neither thor nor hulk can punch faster than light. Hulk gets his punches dodged by the likes of wolverine and spiderman. If we use this ur logic we would have the hulk punching guys like spidy hundreds of times before they can react. Thanos has punched captain marvel from the moon to the earth in seconds. It doesnt mean that he can suddenly execute thousands of punches before his opponents can react. Things like that simply DO NOT happen in comics because when superstrong guys like thanos,thor and hulk are able to send people hurtling at such speeds, it is attributed to their strength. If it had anything to do with their punching speed we would would see some manifestation of this "punching speed" in other instances in their history.
There is a big difference between science that is applicable in the real world and science that is applicable in comics. Using things like the positions and patterns of stars to assume speed when little or no emphasis is ever placed on them as they seem to change in nearly evry panel is just way off. Similarly saying that anybody who can punch another being to the moon or the sun must be punching at superspeed, when superstrong( and not superfast) bricks are known for doing this regularly is way way off as well. IT should be very obvious that comics dont regularly apply actual real world physics in the explanation of the feats that most heroes perform.
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It took a charged attack from a much stronger Vegeta, after Goku amped by Kaio Ken paralyzed Nappa.
With Extremis its still debatable and he is definitely not faster in actual combat. Its dishonest to yell low showing when his whole career, Tony has shown skilled street levelers can do him like that. I wonder if you'd yell low showing if Batman was in Bucky's place, popping off Tony's mask like a sardine can and putting a gun in his face. Was it just a low showing when Parker popped off his mask and had him strung up and bleeding?
As far as the scene from space being "exaggerated"...comments like this that just blatantly go against what we see and craziness like Hulk punching at light speed make me not even want to bother responding. Its just outlandish reaching to try and back an argument, I don't think you even believe it. The next few pages clarify it even further that the blast was that size, you have some weird interpretations of panels.
--Vegeta worries about the worth of the planet and the dragonballs possibly being destroyed because Nappa's blast was so huge.
--Newscaster saying their hasn't been any contact with ALL cities near the "incredible earthquakes" origin. Nappa didn't just take down the damn power lines, which we see with the scene showing Earth from space. We even see Roshi go on about how he can't comprehend how powerful they are. He wouldn't freak about some small blast that took out one city, when he had already seen Piccolo do that in Dragonball.
I really don't think that final attack from Vegeta can be used to guage Nappa's strength. It's not a particularly charged attack either- sure, it's not absolutely instantaneous, but it's not charged like his Galick Gun is either. Also there's nothing left of Nappa afterwards- so it's considerably stronger than he is in that near-dead state. We know that Nappa is weaker than Vegeta anyway, but considering that a) the blast is overkill, and b) Nappa was already defenceless, I don't think it yields any useful information about a fit Nappa's capacity against Tony Stark.
True, I guess there's enough evidence that Saiyan's are just naturally bulletproof, but isn't this partly ki-based? For example, I don't think a fit Vegeta could be killed by Krillin with the sabre even if he hit him, whereas obviously he expected to die when Krillin was about to stab him at the end of the first Vegeta vs Goku fight.
And even if that applies for Saiyans, humans like Roshi and Krillin- both bulletproof- differ mainly from Mr Satan in terms of ki and strength.
Lastly, most of the attacks that take down DBZ characters are intended not to destroy cities- when they're trying to destroy stuff, or just not being careful not to cause collateral damage, they inflict a lot of damage on the landscape. If the fight ends with a major attack, it's either not aimed at the planet surface- Kamehameha against Cell, for example- or it's very precisely controlled to only damage its target- Final Flash against Cell by Vegeta, for example.
__________________ "Tell me, is it slavery when you get what you want?"
Did I say he could? You only specified him punching people fast enough to reach escape velocity, which is around 11 km/s. The fastest I've ever heard of Hulk moving his arms was when he swung his arm at 1/8th of the speed of light (but I haven't actually read that comic so it might be hearsay)
Punching someone really fast is not the same as throwing lots of punches in a short amount of time.
That's a strawman - since I never claimed he could. Simply that he can throw one punch that fast.
You mean like Superman doing complex tasks at super speed (which happens all the time)? Or Thanos blocking Fallen One's bumrush from behind with one hand?
You're simply selectively ignoring evidence. Also, it should be mentioned again that no matter how strong you are, you can't hit someone faster than light unless you're punching faster than light.
So, in other words, you can ignore physics whenever they don't suit your arguments, but use them when they do?
"Oh look, Hulk lifted a mountain - that must weigh millions of tons! How do I know this? Because science tells us how much mountains weight. But Hulk just threw someone into space - he couldn't possibly be throwing them at escape velocity - even though science says he is. Why not? Because I just don't think he was"
Not a very convincing argument.
Please post the scan where he was "paralyzed"
Please show me "skilled street levelers" beating Tony "throughout his whole career"
Oh and here's a scan of Iron Man's fighting speed:
Not exactly as big as the first scan would indicate
And? What is this supposed to prove? Obviously he could have destroyed the dragonballs if they were nearby - and Vegeta obviously wasn't talking about only that attack when he bothered Nappa about ruining the planet.
With attacks that can cover multiple cities it would only take a few hours to blast the surface of the entire planet.
And where was Roshi watching the explosion? All he knew about it was what was on the news. He was talking about how powerful they were because he felt their ki.
If the explosion was really as big as depicted in the view from space, it would do a lot more than just damage a few cities - it would be able to take out an entire country, cause earthquakes all over the world (not just in one area), and the flash would be bright enough to be seen halfway across the planet (which it obviously was not, since they were describing it as an earthquake)
I suppose. That's also probably why Tao was injured so badly by that grenade.
Vegeta redirected his attack into space in order to not hit the earth
The word paralyzed isn't used, but Goku does hit Nappa in the spine, after which Nappa requests Vegeta's assistance because he can't get up.
Vegeta may or may not have known, but the Dragonballs are supposed to be indestructible- however if they'd been in the city they would have been buried under tonnes of rubble and they weren't aware of the Dragon Radar.
Exactly- hence degree of control is important. Vegeta fires the Final Flash from above Cell, but is able to focus and direct it so it hits Cell but not the Earth. Goku on the other hand can't do that with the Kamehameha, and has to fire it from ground level to avoid hitting the planet.
__________________ "Tell me, is it slavery when you get what you want?"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Really are u telling me that the stars changing position is ur best argument? Thats just so UNBELIEVABLY weak. IF surfer or the runner had been been moving from galaxy to galaxy or solar system to solar system it would have almost definitely been mentioned. It woudnt have been left to something as insignificant as the drawing of the stars in the background.
In denial? Lulz, im one of the biggest surfer fans on this forum. I simply wont resort to straight up laughable arguments in order to prove he has an ability.
Also thanos did not block fallen ones bullrush from behind. Fallen one was heading straight for him and he threw up a forcefield. Further that is not even close to being evidence of the type of hand speed that u wud attribute to thanos due to his being able to punch captain marvel from the moon to earth. Thanos even found it hard to land punches on gamora who is certainly not fast enough to dodge a person who can strike at close to light speed. The same goes for hulk who though to u can strike at faster than escape velocity finds it hard to hit street levelers and peak humans.
Im not selectively ignoring evidence at all. No form of useful evidence of anything has been provided. Ur simply taking concepts that apply in the real world and putting them in the context of comics where they dont apply. Ur analogy is so way off its just laughable. Its common knowledge that some very basic concepts of real world science are reproduced in comics. Hence a mountain is heavy in the real world just as it is heavy in a comic. However, being able pick up and to throw that same mountain without it collapsing under its own weight is something that though very possible in a comic is impossible in the real world. Its due to differences like this that in comics people are able to have conversations in space, move objects the size of planets etc.
Guys like hulk,thor and thanos being able to hit people into space while having absolutely no previous history of having the striking speed needed to do that by real world standards but rather being renowned for there brute strength shows that speed plays little part in it.
Saying "oh but scientifically that is the only way it could have happened" and ignoring the fact that comics are full of scientific impossibilities is just a terribly weak argument.
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Dec 1st, 2008 01:02 AM
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