No, no. I agree, there were a lot of reasons why she chained Jack to the mast. I was trying to explain a little of Terry's quote about why she did what she did.
I was trying to illustrate that her reasons had very little to do with Will, and more to do with herself. Did it cancel out the suspicion in her mind though? Her actions to me, seem to declare that she doesn't believe him to be trustworthy, otherwise she wouldn't have necessarily shackled him to the ship.
Which actually makes me wonder if she didn't doom both her relationship with Jack and Will in the same foul swoop. Her actions seem like a very firm statement to Jack, which essentially said that she didn't necessarily believe him to be a good man as she had been saying. That she didn't trust him, and that she had to shackle him to the mast for that very reason. Essentially, that message does put a very firm barrier between herself and Jack. So I'm starting to see the logic behind the idea that Jack's priorities shift in AWE....hmmm....
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Last edited by savvysparrow on Oct 26th, 2006 at 11:55 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Jack's battle was making someone an obligation in his life..he decided he wanted to and apparently this explains Liz's actions towards him in DMC..(from T&T)
He's asking to be with her, She's saying "no" for now anyway..thats not her final choice before movie 2 closes..despite how much W/E shippers wish it was.
See, that's the glories of ambiguity and good writing. You can interpret it in so many different ways. From what Terry said, it sounds more like her chaining him to the mast had more to do with his past behavior. It's the whole idea from the first movie.
"One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a life time of wickedness, though it seems enough to condemn him."
Sorry for playing devil's advocate. I'm not switching sides, but this interpretation just struck me.
I agree that her decision isn't cut and dry. There's more to it than every one thinks, but my question is, after what she's said and done, would either man be willing to take her back? She wounds Jack pretty terribly in AWE, Will is almost a different person. It makes me understand a little more why it is they were having her end up alone.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
I dont think she does it for that reason at all. What T&T say suggests he's basically said he wants to be with her and she says no and when you look back at DMC..when her feelings get called into question for him..she gets scared.
I think she's afraid to be with him at the moment.
His lfe hasnt been full of wikedness. She knows this. she knows he is a good man.
according to the novel for DMC "Jack desired elizabeth all the more knowing her heart was as dark as his own"
So I don't think Jack is gonna be hating her any time soon.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:06 AM
I know you don't agree with this, and I don't necessarily agree with it either. But my eyes are now opened to the argument of the other side of the triangle. We can't have good discussions if we don't see it from all the angles, right
Why would Elizabeth, a girl who seemingly is very comfortable in the pirate world be afraid of being with Jack, other than for the reason that he's proven that he's not always trustworthy?
Also, in terms of Elizabeth's development, you can see the stages of the transition from childhood, adolescence and adulthood, which I find really interesting! It gives strength to the argument that she may have out grown her relationship with Will. CotBP Elizabeth stands on the threshold between the child world and the adolescent world. In terms of the way that she views things at the beginning of the movie, and how that opinion changes towards the end. Jack is a dispicable man at the beginning of CotBP because he's a pirate. After their adventures together, in which she finally recognizes in her dealings with Norrington that the world is not Black and White (a primary indication in terms of child development, that the person has transitioned into the adolescent phase), she sees Jack as being a good man.
In Dead Man's Chest, Elizabeth is on the threshold of adulthood. She's discovered her sexuality, and is struggling to find her identity, is she a pirate or someone with a moral centre? She doesn't make that transition into adulthood until the kiss. Her decision to kiss Jack and to take his life was a very adult decision and it forced her across that threshold. In that way, she's very much out grown Will.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
I think there are 2 main things here
1. She has trust issues (although I think that disappeared when he came back for her)
2. She has a fear of her feelings for Jack..not the lust based ones(that is a very simplistic human instinct). I'm talking about ..true deeper feelings for him.
Elizabeth must realise that this man makes the exception for her in many circumstances.
but did she only realise this at the end? After she did what she did?
I also agree with you 100% on elizabeth transforming into a woman..and it was NOT with Will Turner.
Its very VERY interesting that you say "crossed that threshold" because by the end of movie 2? She's "crossed the first threshold" (step 5) and that threshold is actually Jack Sparrow and having him in her life..accepting to have him there. (although thats not love yet)
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:25 AM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
put both together..why does she fear her feelings for Jack? Becuase she doesnt know if she can trust him.
And I think you basically said that earlier but I didnt get it till now and this is my 4th post in a row..my bad.
This explains why she is so torn up in Tia's hut. she's obviously realising that she can trust Jack. Because everyone else starts to talk about his honest streak...and IMO she realised just how silent he was when she did that to him..(Jack's most honest emotion)..and I think she realises he would have stayed anyway. And so she then crosses the first threshold int the adventure..and this is where the story acrually starts for her IMO
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:48 AM
The act of kissing Jack and committing murder was a very adult one, but I think she'll struggle with what that decision will mean in her future. It means sacrifice, that the adult world is not necessarily the easy world. (In a way similar to Harry Potter: the choice between what is right, and what is easy).
In the AWE script, there's a moment where I think she's accepted that she is in fact a pirate towards the middle when Norrington believes that she's "lost her way". It's not so much that she's lost it, but that she's finally found it. In a way, Elizabeth was imprisoned by her Governor's daughter persona.
She chooses to be held captive and to go to her death as a pirate with her crew. I think that scene shows that she's officially become an adult. She's found her identity, she's willing to die to defend it and the pirate way of life. Also, part of becoming an adult is recognizing and questioning the other adults who are in power. She very soundly rebukes and questions Norrington, who actually is the person who's lost his way. Norrington has become alienated from the good man he once was.
Also, I think part of what helps her to reach this place in her life is when Will reveals that the only reason he came with her to rescue Jack was to rescue the Pearl. Not for their love, or loyalty for her. It's the first time when she's essentially alone. There's no one there to guide or protect her anymore. She faces squarely the consequences of her actions. In a way, that's similar to Jack's decision to return to the Pearl, is it not? For the first time in his life, he faces the consequences of the decisions he'd been making for years.
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Last edited by savvysparrow on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:45 AM
Mmmmm, ok. I agree to disagree. I don't think she's quite to that threshold yet at the end of DMC. She's absolutely getting there, but the fact that she's clinging to Will as a way, in my opinion, to find redemption at the beginning of AWE tells me that she's not crossed the threshold quite yet. I don't think she actually crosses it until Jack trades her to Sao Fen. And I know that it will be different in the actual movie, but she seems to be a different person after she's taken aboard the Dutcman.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
I'm not sure if its him facing consequences for his actions.. Its deciding to make Elizabeth an obligation in his life.(although I suppose you can call that accepting the consequences for his actions) This is why he went back to the pearl.IMO
Here:
Box Office Mojo: What is the meaning of the series?
Ted Elliott: It's a study of what is a pirate. How free can you really be? What are those trade-offs? Jack kind of represents the ultimate free man? he really has no obligations to anybody, and, obviously, if you make an obligation to somebody, you're limiting your own freedom. But, if you're not willing to limit your own freedom, you can't have those relationships. If you look at Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest from that point of view,you kind of see what really leads to Jack's ultimate fate and why Elizabeth does what she does.
-from boxofficemojo.com
^^^ I see that as Jack comes back for Elizabeth, Liz refuses him because of this.
I think she is there on that threshold to adventure..only because I'm placing her development over Voglers and Campbells famous "12 steps"
her character needed to be closed on a significant step in DMC..and she's ended on the single most important one for a character in a story..step 5 where they accept the call to adventure, the call to adventure is the very thing they refused 2 steps earlier.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 01:02 AM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
1. Ordinary World (thrust into special world like a fish out of water)
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor/supernatural helper
5. Crossing the First Threshold
------------------I think she's here when movie 2 ends because she makes that decision to go after Jack.
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 01:13 AM
Ok, actually I see your point. But only because it makes sense in terms of the next step; enemies, allies and tests. Her old allies are no longer the ones she can count on, and indeed they've become her enemies. Her father has died, Norrington is an enemy, Jack has traded her to Sao Fen and Will's heart is not entirely with hers.
But at the same time, I almost feel like her decision to rescue Jack has more to do with her conscience. In AWE, she has this naiive belief that once he's rescued, everything will go back to normal.
What exactly is number seven about? The rest are easy to surmise. The surpreme ordeal will have to do with Will.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Like wise Jack crossed the threashold which was allowing Liz into his life after meeting Tia..but at the same time he still felt he could go back to normal and be the selfish coward he "always was"..he was lying to her..but he had at leat accepted her on board because earlier he was actually running away from her in "refusal of the call"
It takes a while for them to fully accept that person
Liz's battle is shown to us with the compass saving Will vs feelings for Jack.
She's feeling guilty yes..but a person only really feels guilty like we see her in movie 2 when they have hurt someone they love or care very much for.
she screwed Jack over in movie 1 and she showed no real remorse for it because she didnt really have feelings for him..she killed lots of men but she still had no remorse because she doesnt know them, she toyed with norries emotions..again no remorse..she's very much a pirate..
but this time it hurts her(before she even decides to get Jack back)...why?
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 01:37 AM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
7) THE HERO REACHES THE INNERMOST CAVE(approach)
The hero comes at last to a dangerous place, often deep underground,
where the object of his quest is hidden. In the Arthurian stories
the Chapel Perilous is the dangerous chamber where the seeker finds
the Grail. In many myths the hero has to descend into hell to
retrieve a loved one,or into a cave to fight a dragon and gain a
treasure. It's Theseus going into the Labyrinth to face the
Minotaur. In STAR WARS it's Luke and company being sucked into the
Death Star where they will rescue Princess Leia. Sometimes it's the
hero entering the headquarters of his nemesis; and sometimes it's
just the hero going into his or her own dream world to confront his
or hers worst fears... and overcome them.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 27th, 2006 at 01:41 AM
She betrayed and hurt a friend. Someone who trusted her. Also, part of becoming an adult is stepping out of the box of selfishness and recognizing the ramifications of your actions. So she's stepped into the realm of consciousness.
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Oct 26th, 2006 11:51 PM
