Gender: Female Location: WheRe JacK is I'M There By His Side
well said Willo! the writers and Gore all need to fesss up and admitt that they have plot holes in the movie!! Surely they must know that MOST OF THEIR AUDIENCE have serious questions!!
Now imagine us who are complete and total Pirate freaks who practically know everything there is to know because we all Literally have Master Degrees on the POTC movies and we still dont understand some things now i can only imagine those ppl who are not fans just watching the movie....they must really feel like "WHAT?" Til this day i still find myself explaining things about the movie to ppl!!!
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Here's another thing I don't get and it's along the lines of what Kate was talking about: what is considered faithful here? I know it's kind of null and void since it doesn't affect Will at all, but does something happen to Will if Elizabeth is unfaithful? Then what is considered unfaithful? Does it have to be sex? What if she falls in love with someone but doesn't act on it out of respect/love/commitment to Will?
If they're supposed to have a bittersweet relationship, why say their story isn't told? That means Elizabeth either finds a way to see Will or he finds a way to see her...or that she was unfaithful in some way but was still there to see Will for his one day.
Who knows anymore? Maybe it all just means that Will and Liz have what's called an "open marriage." Liz can pursue other pirates and Will can pursue strange immortal women who come his way?
hahaha crack me up. i vote for that option. though, it would make the marriage itself seem a bit pointless.
the end of awe feels a little too hades and persephone for me. i know Will didn't know he was going to die, but WHAT is the point of getting married in a situation like that? I am a sappy romantic and an impulsive person and all that, but the facts dont add up. Being married or not married wouldn't make any difference in the midst of that battle... they will both probably die before they can consummate said marriage, and if they don't die, they would have plenty of time to get married and actually enjoy it afterward. so saying a few trite vows seems a waste of time and focus that i just cant figure out.
i guess what this boils down to is, in my book, Elizabeth made her choice. what "faithful" means isn't very relevant to the question of Liz and Jack anymore... to me anyways. When Elizabeth married Will, she gave up any chance of Jack so long as Will was alive. (Possible Loophole-- according to the DVD explanation, Will and the crew aren't actually ALIVE at all). She agreed to keep his chest/heart thingy. So unless she turns into another Calypso, she's made her choice. Bad choice, stupid situation, awful ending, but it seems pretty final to me. Unless Will dies or frees her, she's locked in for life.
I don't want Jack to be the victim of unrequited love, becase I don't think he would allow himself to be. Unless there was a real possibility of winning Liz, I think Jack is the type who will move on. Yeah, he will be hurt, nostalgic, wish things could have been different, but I think he'll set off for the horizon, find some treasure, have some adventures, go on with his life. He doesn't strike me as the type who would wait around for 10 years to see whether things work out with Will and Liz.
The only scenerio i can make work for Jack and Liz to now end together is like Willo's fanfic... Will has died, Jack took Liz under his wing, a few years passed, and nature took its course. Either way, they don't settle down in a house in the hamptons. They are both still dangerous, unpredictable, but now bound to each other by a lot more than just attraction.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Lol, if you're talking about what we wrote on here, Kate, it's not MY fic. You and Surreal wrote substantial portions of it and Mina chimed in much to my pleasant surprise.
Yeah, it's just...in COTBP, everyone came out on top....except Norrington, but he didn't look as beat up about it as he could have and he stole all our hearts so it didn't matter. Will was able to come to terms with the fact he had piracy in his blood, his dad might be alive, and Elizabeth was now his. Elizabeth had an adventure filled with pirates and got her own "pirate" at the end. Jack, Jack got the Pearl, the ship he'd been searching for, obsessing over for years. Barbossa? Well, he was dead, but that was back in the POTC universe when dead was dead and at least it made sense. So they all won and life was great for all of them.
DMC was darker, we understood most second installments of trilogies are darker, but it was okay because we had such optimism. Norrington was back and was a freakin' sexy pirate! I think we all prefer him in DMC to the other two movies. Will was less of a nerd, more mature, and was trying to not make the same choices his dad had; he was going to marry the girl he loved and be there for her and their kids. He also looked better. Elizabeth was more mature too, shedding her dresses and styled hair for a life on the high seas. She hijacked a ship without firing a shot! She got to fight with a sword, sometimes two! She was sorting out her feelings for Will and the new ones she was feeling for Jack which gave us an angsty but gorgeous triangle sparking debate after debate. She grew up in DMC. Jack? We learned so much more about him, did we not? We got under his skin and got to see what it was like to be him for a while, saw new sides to him. Barbossa was back at the end and we were all ready for how the hell all this was going to be sorted out in AWE. Our heroes all had lost something, most notably Jack who possibly lost a relationship and lost his life, but we didn't get the sense they were losers. We felt they would come out on top again because we'd seen them do it before and as movie rules go, ragtag rescue teams ALWAYS accomplish their goals.
And then AWE...the bastard child. I'll give T&T credit in the sense that they had a lot to close up and only 2-3 hours to do it while supplying us a lot of action and pirate humor. So it was a tough task. But they screwed it up:
Mistake 1: Do you really want to set the tone for an adventure movie by hanging a child? A child? Who sings? I know it shows Beckett's evil nature, but we already knew he was bad news and would get worse with power.
Mistake 2: How long were the pirates of the CARIBBEAN in SINGAPORE? Why focus so much time and action in a place that is virtually irrelevant to the overall story? Sao Feng is an interesting character, but he didn't get to do much and Chow Yun Fat/Yun Fat Chow's acting was essentially wasted. Yeah, we see Will starting to go pirate and Barbossa and Elizabeth fighting together is really cool, but this took up A LOT of time.
Mistake 3: Like 45 minutes in and they're just now getting to how awkward this rescue team is? You have a couple not talking, captained by a guy who tried to kill them, and a weird lady who won't bundle up in the cold saying vague stuff about how much Jack is suffering before they all go over a waterfall. Maybe a nice little battle at sea between this ship and another one would have been a nicer beginning and let us focus on our characters.
Mistake 4: Tia brings Barbossa back for his Piece of 8? Never once was this made clear. Yeah, we all figured it out but her motives should have been clearer and clearer as the movie went on.
Mistake 5: Swann gets 5 minutes of screen time and we're supposed to feel bad for Elizabeth? She hadn't seen her dad for months since she ditched him as he was BREAKING HER OUT OF JAIL. Jonathan Pryce didn't want to come back to do DMC unless Swann had "something to do" so I think he was misled into doing AWE.
Mistake 6: Norrington dies? What? He was the biggest loser in COTBP and the biggest winner in DMC and now he's just dead. These movies were huge for Jack Davenport and he's supposed to be the second best swordsman in the trilogy, so why not let him be a pirate and show it off? Oh, and it's a little tiring watching Elizabeth kiss every single guy on the seven seas.
Mistake 7: Davy Jones. He was a badass in DMC, maybe not as scary as Barbossa, but he was new and sadistic with a fun satanic/Faustian undertone to him, a great adversary for Jack. Now he's like a little puppy dog under Beckett's thumb, still pining away for a girl who left him. Was anyone afraid of him by the end, even when he killed Will?
Mistake 8: Jack/Elizabeth. No sparrabeth necessary, but some kind of sense to their relationship. They aren't speaking. He looked at her not with relief or love or amusement or even anger when he first saw her, but terror. Now they're friends again? We missed something and their relationship needed to be better defined leading up to the parlay scene. They spend a lot of time together in AWE and yet none of it seems to flow.
Mistake 9: As cool as it is, why do pirates have a court? Why do they have a king? Aren't they supposed to be "f*ck the establishment" kind of people, the rock stars and hippies of their time? Yet they have an established bureaucracy with a ruler who does little else besides play his guitar and give his son advice. I love Teague and think he's an intriguing character, but wasn't there some other way to show a bunch of pirates banding together? Liz was already a pirate captain. She's proved her competence and independence through that. She doesn't really have to be "king." All this was to me was a plot device to show Jack making a peace offering to her by making her dream come true and allowing the two of them and Barbossa to lead all these people.
Mistake 10: Like Kate said, marriage vows during a battle? It does nothing but add old-school Hollywood fluff. I think Elizabeth even raises up her leg like they used to. I'm all fine for them making up and deciding they want to get married again. But go back and read Kate's post on why this was stupid.
Mistake 11: I LOVE Will's death scene. The drama, the look on everyone's faces, the suspense it leaves us in. It's shot beautifully and emphasizes how much the trio has come to love each other. But if you're going to show something like this, you need to have a way to 1.) just let it happen and it can be a beautiful tragedy or 2.) fix it. I don't like the idea of Jack saving Will the way he did if he knew it meant that Will would never ever be free of the curse. The curse doesn't make sense and it is probably the biggest mistake in the whole movie. It's a bold choice, but no one is satisfied with it. It's never explained and don't you think it should show Will at least upset over what's happened to him? He seems to take it awfully well.
Mistake 12: The hidden scene. Some of us think Elizabeth stayed on that rock for ten years becoming a little homemaker raising a kid by herself. Others think she's on Shipwreck Cove and still a pirate king, just managing to do it all-- being a working single mom. Others think she's a piss-poor mom since she is prone to make impulsive choices. But this scene reveals nothing except that she and Will have a child, and there are STILL people out there insisting someone else is the father and Will is in for a nasty surprise. If they really wanted to tie this movie back to COTBP, then end it with Jack. He became the central character, the main hero, and he needed more than once more being a shipless loser.
Okay, enough. Who agree here? Don't you think these are a lot of major mistakes for one film?
The problem is, most of these mistakes START as very good, very intriguing ideas. They just didn't fit together, didn't fit the intention of the film, and don't make sense.
I completely agree, Willo - you've made some excellent points.
My question is - is Elizabeth even technically "married" anymore? Excluding the whole "Is Barbossa a captain?" thing, Will died therefore the marriage isn't valid anymore, correct? "Till death do us part?"
Last edited by savvysparrowluv on Nov 26th, 2007 at 04:23 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
That is a good point. As romantic as weddings and marriage usually are, you can treat it as a covenant or a contract. Since Will and Elizabeth were married by a captain of a ship, there's is technically a contractual marriage and "till death do us part" is the factor that makes the marriage null and void. Good legal thinking, savvy!
I do think the honeymoon scene of doom might imply Will and Elizabeth regard the marriage as still valid.
but then, marriage seems to be a euphemism for sex in all three films anyways.
I just can't make it work that Elizabeth plays around with another guy after Will leaves. I mean, I don't know if I am just too traditional or what. Some people suggest the kid is Jack's... in that case, Elizabeth would be looking far more nervous about seeing Will again.
Thanks, girls Just as one of you said a while back, Will has no heart - he is for all purposes, actually dead. If we accept that to be true, then Elizabeth is actually a widow and the marriage void during the consummation - I think Kate is right - 'marriage' is just the euphemism for sex in the trilogy (bloody writers).
I don't know, she might not be nervous - what if she doesn't know whose child it is? Jack comes to her a few weeks later, finds her desolate, crying, confuse...he comforts her...it leads to *ahem* ...more... If she didn't know who the father was, she'd still be nervous, but she could've made herself forget that night with Jack to (in her mind) still be faithful to Will (again, pure speculation)...has this already been written in a fic? It sounds awful familiar...
haha... a lively debate, lots of questions, and no answers. why does that seem to be the theme of my love for POTC?
I think Jack is too good to take Will's cast off widow/wife after she so clearly chose not to pursue what could have been between them. I don't think Jack would confront her in a vulnerable position... or cowardly wait until Will was gone to attempt to get more from Lizzie. If he didn't pursue her during AWE, when she was for the most part still single/available, i dont think he would do it later on, when she was married AND/OR pregnant.
I can see what you mean, Kate (about taking the cast off woman, so to speak)
Oh, I didn't mean he'd take advantage of her in any way, just be there as a friend at first. She needs comfort, she asks him to just hold her - she misses the physical comfort of Will and other humans, she finally stops crying as he's rocking her back and forth, they look into each other's eyes, you can feel the UST crackling in the air. Elizabeth saying something (albiet not so cheesy as) "I'm so lonely, Jack."
"I know love, 's all right, Lizzie. It'll be alright". ( he holds her)
She could whisper her infamous apology into his ear, confessing her guilt, how worried she is about Will, etc...just letting it all out...
I can't see Jack taking advantage of her in a state like that unless she was completely willing, even pursuing...I can even see him turning her away to let her emotions calm before she makes a decision like that, then her feeling all cheap and crummy, (that would be a whole different plot line of course)...hm...I need to think about this for a while and then try to write it down, its all working out up in my head, just not here on paper, lol
yeah, I got inspired to write a little short scene of a fanfic when I was trying to make sense of the AWE ending and what might happen afterword. Savvy, write that out and then we can all post them and read them and enjoy ourselves.
Well, here's a little bit of a fanfic. I was just trying to decide how to make sense of AWE's ending without confining Elizabeth to a life of drudgery.
Elizabeth pushed open the door of her room and let out a deep sigh of weariness. Another night of dancing, of polite flirtation and not-so-polite insinuations from her aunt that it was time to accept one of the many proposals awaiting her. Another night of stilted formality and grace, of saying anything but what you meant, of pretending. Elizabeth sank onto the floor and laid her head on her knees. I ought to check on William, she thought briefly, but made no move to rise. He was sure to be asleep in his nursery just yards away; peacefully asleep, perhaps dreaming of the wild tales she sometimes told him. It was unwise to do so, unwise to dwell on a life that was no longer hers, but aching for it became so sharp sometimes she couldn't help herself. William looked so much like his father.
She remembered first learning of her pregnancy, a few months after
Will had left. She was living back in Port Royal at the time, walking
a dangerous line between respectable citizen and Pirate King while the
Royal Navy continued their sometimes-brutal crackdown on criminals and
the less-than-savoury of society. Engaged in almost-weekly break-ins
to the jail in an attempt to free various friends and acquaintences,
and periodically hired as an assasin or crew-mate, Elizabeth's life
had taken a sudden lurch back into reality with the realization that she was with child. Alone, with no family and
no husband, she became frantic. She couldn't raise a child on the run,
and she didn't want to bring one into the mess she was living in.
In those dark days, her one idea was to find Jack. She hated to admit
it, but she needed him. Desperately. In her worst moments he had been
there (and more than usually with a plan). She began searching every
town and port in the Caribbean, chasing every rumour of him, but
always the trail remained cold. He had gone--- gone to find the
fountain of youth, some said, but no one had seen or heard from him
since. Not a trace of him was left anywhere. And eventually, Elizabeth
herself came to accept that he was gone for good-- dead, perhaps, or
sailed away past the ends of the earth. And those were the bleakest
moments Elizabeth had known. She was truly alone. Thinking of Will's
curse, and the near widow-hood she found herself in, she thought of
ending the pregnancy. Will would never know. She had been strong
through too much tragedy already. Elizabeth smiled wryly, for fate had
intervened again, cutting her off from making that dreadful choice.
Gibbs had found her, somewhere in the Pacific, and had persuaded her to
return to England to whatever family she had left there. England
hardly seemed real to Elizabeth at the time-- a faraway memory,
nothing more. At first she had flatly refused, declaring she would
rather be dead than return to that awful place, to a family she didn't
know and a society she hated. But Gibbs was clever, much more clever
than most gave him credit for, and he could rouse her loyalty to Will,
the promises she had made him, and her duty to carry on her father's
name. In the end, she had consented. But something had died in her
heart on that lonely journey back across the Atlantic, and the
Elizabeth that arrived penniless, ragged, heavy with child and
apparantly husband-less on the doorstep of her Aunt and Uncle in
London was a broken woman, certainly not the proud Pirate King who had
parried swords and words with the most feared legends of the seven seas. Her child was born in a dim room less than a month later, and she overheard her aunt wondering aloud who's bastard it was. Never mind, she would tell the sleeping infant. You're heir to the pirate throne.
Strangly, Will was the person Elizabeth thought least about. Whether this was part of the curse or her own mind's affectation, she didn't know. She had feverishly watched his heart at the beginning; now, it remained neatly stored in a cupboard, gathering dust perhaps. How many years had it been? Five? Five years. No wonder that brief day with Will felt like a dream, some story made up to amuse herself as she tossed and turned at night. The dream of a pale, restrained English virgin.
Movement by the window snapped her out of her reverie. Instantly, she was on her feet, her hand flexing for a weapon. She couldn't help the still-sharp reflex to danger as a painful surge of adrenaline whipped through her body. Forcing her breathing to remain steady, she inched towards the window. She had stolen a sword at some point and hidden it in her room in a foolish fit of anger at English society, and now she snatched the hilt with trembling fingers, almost gleeful at the chance she might get to use it. There was definite movement behind the curtains.
A muffled voice caused sweat to break out on her forehead. “Good evening, Miss Elizabeth.” The voice was deep and calm, and a hooded figure emerged to match it. Inexplicably, Elizabeth felt herself relax. She forced herself to raise the sword to the concealed visitor’s neck. “I trust you won’t scream if I defend myself,” the voice chuckled.
“Not at all. I’ve no wish to alarm the household.”
“Ah, yes. Ever considerate, I see.”
Irked by the sarcasm, Elizabeth dealt the first blow. Mocking laughter met her further attempts as the figure easily blocked her attacks and casually moved to block the door. Undaunted, Elizabeth carried the duel into her parlour next door. Neither she nor the intruder were battling in earnest; both seemed intent on testing out their partner’s skills rather than drawing blood. “You’re better than I remember,” the man remarked. “Not quite as impulsive, perhaps.”
“Who are you?” Elizabeth finally demanded, breathless and smiling in spite of herself. It had been a long time since she had enjoyed the swift mental exercise of a good swordfight. The man attacked again, and Elizabeth forgot her question as she tried to outwit his cunning play. Her days as Pirate King were coming back to her, the thrill of the fight, the danger, the risk. He was very good, perhaps as good as Will had been. Except Will had always let her win.
They were back in her bedroom now, backed up against the window, when Elizabeth snatched a chance to knock against the wall with her foot. The intruder, responding to what sounded like a knock at the door, lost his focus for a moment, but a moment was all Elizabeth needed. Before he could stop her, she had his weapon in her other hand.
“You cheated!” The figure cried in astonishment.
“Pirate,” Elizabeth acknowledged before she could stop herself. She bit her lip and sighed. “Remove your hood. I’ll at least have a look at you before I decide whether or not to deal a death blow.”
With a bow, the figure did remove his hood, and it was Jack. The infamous Jack Sparrow, standing in her bedroom, years after she had thought never to see him again, years after she had hardened her heart to his death or banishment. I shouldn’t be surprised, she thought to herself, though she was shaking and speechless.
“I’ll give a moment to recover yourself,” he said dryly, with a look that infuriated her.
She moistened her lips. Part of her nearly settled to kill him and have done with it—throw the body out the window, forget him and the life he represented to her.
“If you’re going to kill me, please be my guest. I have no plans to fight. I’ve been killed by you before, and I suppose I could stand it again.”
He was so different. That was why she couldn’t speak. If it weren’t for the voice, she wouldn’t have recognized him. He seemed ancient, aged greatly in worldly wisdom, and weary of everything. His garments were exceedingly rich, his skin darker than she remembered, his hair in a single braid. Rings gleamed from his fingers, a diamond encrusted brooch adorned his cloak. And his eyes were dim, sardonic, almost dead. She set down both swords and stepped closer.
“Jack… Where have you been?”
“Does it matter?”
“Mother of God, Jack” she exploded, “I searched to the ends of the earth for you! People swore you were dead! I needed you, and where were you? Where have you been?”
“Everywhere,” he said tiredly, as if it had been quite troublesome.
“And what’s happened to you?”
“Everything.” His smile was haunted.
“Jack, you mustn’t play games with me, I’ll simply die. I’ve been pretending for five wretched miserable years and if you insist on parrying I’ll kill you!”
“Your impulsive side is coming back, I see,” he remarked casually.
“How did you find me?”
“An old friend of yours. Gibbs.”
“He brought me here,” Elizabeth stammered, “years ago.”
“So he did.”
“You knew?”
“Perhaps.”
Instead of rage, she felt nothing but the sharp sting of abandonment. She swallowed and tried not to burst into tears. “Why didn’t you come for me?”
“Come and rescue the Pirate King? The wife of the Captain of the Flying Dutchman? The proud Governor’s daughter who tricked me and plagued me and killed me? Why indeed?”
“You knew I needed you. I searched for you everywhere. I had messages sent.” Her gaze was sharp with accusations.
“Let’s not fight now,” he said, surprising her yet again. He seemed suddenly overcome with exhaustion, and he stumbled to the bed and sat. Tentatively, she joined him. “I’m not the man I was then.”
“I never knew you that well anyway,” she grinned. “You never let me.”
“You knew more than most,” he said, matching her smile. He studied her face, and reached with a gloved hand to trace its lines. “It would seem you had found the fountain of youth, and not me.”
“Have you found it, Jack?” Her eyes sparkled with excitement and envy.
“Oh yes, years ago. I’ve found everything there is to find, my dear. Every treasure, every mystery discovered. Every enemy cowed—for good. Every lust satisfied.”
Except one, Elizabeth was tempted to say. But she held her tongue. No use talking of lusts satisfied when she sweated and writhed through the nights, unsatisfied. His voice was so cultured, his movements so calculated. How old he seemed! She remembered the springy walk that had once amused her, the rough words, the tangle of dark braids, the smell of salt and sweat that used to travel with him. Now he smelled of cigar smoke and cologne. She wondered, were she to look beneath his embroidered jacket, whether the tell-tale scars would still be there or whether the years had removed them as well. “And you?” He asked softly. “What strange adventures have you had since last I saw you?”
“Only one adventure. My son…” She stammered. “I have a son.”
“William,” Jack said brusquely. “I know. Asleep in the next room.” They both looked at the floor. “I would never have pictured you as a mother.”
“I would never have pictured you as the wealthy, cultured man you seem to have become.”
He looked at her sideways out of his long dark eyes. “A perfect English lady you are now. Quite proper in every way. You were so ready to be married, but I fear this isn’t quite what you had in mind.”
Elizabeth bit her lip and did not give him the satisfaction of replying.
“It’s a pity. You have beauty and passion. You might have made some man exceedingly happy. But your bed is empty, isn’t it?”
Elizabeth blushed. Could Jack read her frustration and loneliness so easily? Would he exploit them, would he tempt her as he once had? Another glance at him assured Elizabeth he wouldn’t. He seemed leagues away from her. Of course, he still thought her beautiful. But from his implications, Elizabeth assumed he wouldn’t be taken in by a pretty face so easily anymore. It seemed he had had his fill of women, some perhaps much more beautiful than she.
A moment passed. Jack seemed to choose his words carefully when he said, “Are you disappointed with life?”
Yes, beyond all else, yes, Elizabeth thought. “I don’t regret the choices I have made,” she said steadily. “But every day I wake up and wish I was dead.”
He smiled briefly. “I thought as much.” He pulled out a pocket watch and studied it. “Time presses. The ship is in the harbour, ready to sail. We leave tonight. Are you coming along?”
Her heart surged with disappointment when Jack said he was leaving, and then swooped back up at the question he posed. She tried to force herself to think clearly. “What do you mean?”
“There’s one last adventure to be had,” he said, and spark of life came into his eyes. That spark was seductive beyond belief— he knew the word adventure was her greatest weakness. “I’ve obtained a map to the counterpart to my old compass. If found, it will not only show you your heart’s desire, but bring it to you instantly, make you the sole possessor of it forever. Whatever your heart desires, yours.”
She drew a sharp breath. He knew too well how to maneuver and manipulate her. She could hardly breath. “I can’t Jack… my son is here, my family.”
“Yes, your family,” he sneered. “Listen to me, Elizabeth Turner. You’ll never see me again if you don’t come now. I’ll never come back to this country. You must decide now what you want. Leave the boy; he’ll be well taken care of, given a good education. In five years you can come back for him, take him to meet his father, take him to hell if you like. I’ll not waste another minute here. Take off that ridiculous corset, put on a cloak and follow me out this window or you’ll spend the rest of your life clinking tea cups with the dukes of all boredom. Savvy?”
His words were proud and harsher than steel. Elizabeth stopped thinking. There was nothing else to be done. She met his eyes for a moment, and that was all she needed. With a quick movement, she unbuttoned the bodice of the heavy gown she wore, stepping out of it to reveal the too-tightly laced corset. Jack tilted his head to admire her body, and then pulled out a jeweled dagger. He stepped closer. Elizabeth’s heart pounded. With a smooth motion, he reached out and slit the strings of her corset from top to bottom, dropping it on the floor beside her.
“Much better,” he said, replacing the dagger. He stepped onto the window ledge, swung it open, and then held out his hand to her. “My lady,” was his dark invitation. Elizabeth glanced back towards the hallway, towards the room where her son slept. And then she turned back, her face set, and took his hand.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 25th, 2007 09:28 PM
Just as one of you said a while back, Will has no heart - he is for all purposes, actually dead. If we accept that to be true, then Elizabeth is actually a widow and the marriage void during the consummation - I think Kate is right - 'marriage' is just the euphemism for sex in the trilogy (bloody writers).
