Would Batman be cosmic then, having fought and either defeated or faired well against the likes of Grundy, Metallo, Mongul, Amazo, Hulk, Grodd, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Superman etc etc?
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If so, shouldn't we use the same excuse for the other top tiers? Cap has his super soldier serum, wolverine has his healing factor to prevent fatigue, DD can fight with 360 vision from his radar and IF can amp his natural abilities by using his chi. They should all be second tier then. Why only hold BP back because of enchanments from thier powers? Cause he's black?
Top tier for Bane Rahs al ghul and Red Skull. Im not sure about Cyclops but apprently hes not bad H2H.
I think third tier for the hand eventhough their supposed to be ninjas Spiderman can beat hand ninjas up.
Chi defintely comes into play beacuse that is part of MA skill. Chi is utlised in alot of Chinese and Japnese MAs.
I think you can use people powers to an extent and I dont think you can seperate their physical stats entirely from skill since part of MA is training is increasing your speed and power.
Part of what makes Wolverine good is his mutant abilities but alot of it is skill so we can ignore that, the same could be said about DD's radar sense because he combines it very well with his MA, but of course Spiderman is bottom beacuse we know alot of his fighting skill is just his superhuman stats.
So I think powers can come into play if their powers are closely linked to their MA skill and they have had extensive MA training.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Apr 9th, 2007 at 11:44 AM
You probably need to clarify exactly how much powers can come into play, and how much the hierarchy you're making is based on skill. And apply that comparably to everyone in the list. Additionally whether weapons and tools are taken into account, in which case characters like the Green Arrows, with an abundance of trick arrows, would probably need to be listed higher than weaponless people.
Take the example of Deathstroke. He's listed as above the likes of Captain America, Shiva and Batman, but that's largely due to his physical enhancement. While someone like Spider-Man or Beast is listed in the bottom group despite their physical superiority.
That being the case does someone like Thing, who's considered moderately skilled in fighting get listed very high due to his superhuman durability and strength which supplement his skill or does he get listed in, for example, third tier solely on skill.
If you're allowing Radar Sense then not Spider-Sense? If Captain America has his shield and Elektra gets her sai, does Batman's utility belt come into play? Etc.
Basically I suggest you standardize the criteria under which you're ranking and apply it uniformly.
Yeah im going to change that for the reasons you gave.
Well like I said im going to move DS to second tier because he obvoulsy has MA skill but his enhancements enable him to beat people like Batman.
Things goes at the bottom.
Well yeah. We all know that Spiderman can beat Cap and DD but even with all his powers H2H, I know Cap will give him problems defintely
Well I will have to think about that.
On second thoughts I think I will just leave out weapons and powers. Otherwise it will get too complicated. Anyway I will think about it. As it stand it seems I have done that already mostly.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Apr 9th, 2007 at 03:07 PM
List based on H2H skill. Imagine if characters were all human and then you gave them their MA skill, training and experience. Chi is defintely taken into account because that is MA technique that is taught even in the real world ie Tai Chi, Chi Kung.
Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate Kid
Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon, Midnighter, Karnak (mmmmmmaybe he jobs a bit).
Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world.")
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Taskmaster, Elecktra, Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Batgirl, Conner Hawke, Killmonger, Bane (not sure), Ra Al ghul (not sure), Red Skull.
Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight, Sabretooth, Night Thrasher (is very good but he does use a hyrdraulic suit...so thats cheating a bit), Deathstroke (helped alot by enhancements but still has MA skill), Robin.
Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of Shield, Hand ninjas
Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast, Thing, Green Arrow
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Apr 9th, 2007 at 03:21 PM
Bane is definitely moved down. As is Midnighter, if you aren't taking into account his enhancements. Nick Fury should be top-tier.
Also, I think we either need a better definition of third Tier, or to eliminate it entirely. I'd say that we could introduce a third tier, and move some of top to second, and second to third, and not worry about things like hand ninja's and Shield agents.
I mean, in second tier, there are some people that are clearly superior than to the rest there, but not as good as top tier. In top tier, same thing, some are inferior, but not quite 'second tier.'
If you get my meaning, anyways.
For example, Deadpool is skilled, but I wouldn't say he's on the level of Batman, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Shiva, and Cass. Similar for Nightwing, Black Panther, Red Hood, and Taskmaster. They're all skilled, but they couldn't really keep up with the aforementioned.
However, all the people I named are a bit better than the likes of the Punisher and US Agent, so they don't really fit in tier two, either. You're basically breaking ALL the martial artists into two tiers (since you've put no one in tier three). That hardly 'ranks' them very well.
I suggest expanding the bracket into at LEAST three, perhaps four, and putting everyone in order like that. It'd make things much cleaner, and much less polarized.
Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun
Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick
Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world.")
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Panther, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Conner Hawke, Daredevil, Deadpool, Elektra, Iron Fist, Killmonger, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Azrael, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Midnighter, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher, Punisher, Robin, Sabretooth, US Agent
Third tier: (Has MA training and experience)
Hand Ninjas, Shield Agents
Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.)
Beast, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, Thing
Comments:
-I've added Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon to the Top Tier.
-Green Arrow should still be second tier, so I've moved him there. -Thing should probably be higher too.
-Moved Midnighter into Second Tier, (but without any of his enhancements I'm not sure I'd put him that high even...)
-You have far too many people in Top Tier - off the top of my head imo the following should be lowered: Bane, Black Panther (without his powers with regard to sheer skill imo he isn't on the level of Shiva, Batman, Captain America, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi) Deadpool, Ra's al Ghul, Nightwing, Red Hood. Possibly the likes of Elektra and Daredevil too (see comment about Black Panther)
-You probably shouldn't include Hand and Shield. If you're going to have a Third Tier, you should find some third tier MAs e.g. Psylocke is probably Third Tier, and some of the Second Tier's too (once the top tier is cleaned out a bit). Thing would probably be Third Tier too. Likewise Luke Cage.
-You should really just eliminate the bottom group, if you intend to rank Martial Arts Skill there's no point in having a group where you're basically saying they don't really have any.
Argh thats the thing Midnighters powers are directly given to thim to increase his MA ability...but then again so is super strength. Damn it forgot about Nick. This is the thing im starting to want to cinlude powers; Ah this gives me an idea powers are only allowed if it is a result of MA training. For example Wolverines heightened sense are not included because thats just his mutant ability but Chi is beacuse thats part of MA training. Bane has good whosings against Batman wiithout venom.
I'll see what everbody else thinks.
Well lets put it this way BP is staying in top tier because evidence has been given to me that he is.
Hasnt Dp beaten Wolverine on a couple of occasions and beaten Taskmaster in cuffs....ok that was PIS I think.
Punisher is staying in tier two beacuse he has good showings aaginst DD and Bullseye. US agent seems to be better than I thought because I have seen some scans of him fighting but I might change my mind about US agent.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Are you sure? I have a comic where GA gets completely pawned by an MA on bats level. Basically the guy just presure pointed GA and he went down. People say GA is a good fighter but he seems a brawler i dunno maybe it was just a low showing. Anyway im not DC expert.
mmmmmm. Yeah I think you're right not second tier though.
Ok.
MM doesnt BP have good showings agisnt Wolverine without enhancements. I think you might be right about Bane, but I thought Bane had a good fight against....oh nevermind I was thinking the same thing actually.
OK but I have a feeling you will be far more useful on the DC side of thing. Concerning DC I will probably assume you are correct.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Latest version, some small changes. Thing in third tier. Bane in second tier.
Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun
Uber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Gorgon, Stick
Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world.")
Batgirl, Batman, Black Panther, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Conner Hawke, Daredevil, Deadpool, Elektra, Iron Fist, Killmonger, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Red Hood, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine, Nick Fury
Second tier: (Close behind the best)
Azrael, Black Widow, Bullseye, Deathstroke, Green Arrow, Midnighter, Moon Knight, Night Thrasher, Punisher, Robin, Sabretooth, US Agent, Bane, Invisible Woman
Third tier: (Has MA training and experience)
Thing, Psylocke, Cyclops
Accomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.)
Beast, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, Nightcrawler
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Apr 9th, 2007 at 04:08 PM
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