He understood how using the Jews was a keen political move which is one of his admirable qualities; a very sharp mind. His understanding of politics and how people think was astounding. Sadly many of his speeches are too long to quote but here's just a simple article I found quite amusing:
It is the Dream....the hope...that makes the reality worth living In the early 1940s, I made a personal pledge to uphold the Dream and as long as the Dream remains even partially unfulfilled, I cannot abandon it!
An admirable quality when used for evil purposes ceases to be an admirable thing. Goebbals used his mind for Genocide. He personally approved of the needless slaughter of 3 million+ people. Thus, he was scum. Nothing more that human effluence*. To say anything else is to have a warped view of reality.
* Poo
Also, everything Goebbels says above is nothing more than common sense. I could have told you all that.
Once more, STFU.
Edit: I suggest you read this thread, becuase you are probably one of the sick shits the guy talks about-
True to a point. However, the kind of genius that Goebbels possessed was the kind to manipulate people, which isn't an admirable kind of genius. A twisted quality isn't admirable or good. For example if you are the type of person who works hard on your physique, that is an admirable quality. But if you only work hard on it so you can kill, maim and rape, that quality has become twisted and is no longer a positive force.
Not to mention, the thing that Luminatus apparently admired in Goebbels was his willingness to scapegoat the Jews, citing it as sound politics, which clearly it wasn't judging by how the Nazi regime turned out.
Uh, first, Nazi Germany fell because it engaged in a war it could not win. On its own front it was pretty stable. There was a Resistance but it never amounted to much until after World War II started and Hitler's followers began to lose confidence.
Second, I admire Goebbel's mind for politics. Does that mind for politics include a shrewd strategy to use the Jews? Yes. But like SC said, that doesn't mean he wasn't talented.
Finally, his political beliefs are not only "Hate Jews!!!!" For instance, his view of communism is agreeable for me.
He was working towards what he thought was the best interests of his own country (syntax?) and did not consider himself evil.
It took one of the most powerful minds of civilized human history to elucidate that things will fall to the ground if unsupported. Genius is often the ability to say simple things correctly, rather than confusingly.
So, the guy might be a 'Hitler worshiper' so he is therefore wrong? There is nothing to indicate emotional bias outside so this qualifies as an ad hominem, rather than a simple insult. You don't want to win that way.
Why not? It takes just as much (if not more) skill than being good at chess. There's nothing to suggest that it is any less difficult, and it is certainly more useful.
Twisted by your definition. Would you care to share your criteria for what is and is not 'twisted'?
Why is working on physique admirable? It seems like you're extending your own values past your personal life and into others. While working to kill and rape is not good for society (rape is a particularly socially disruptive crime) if 'good for society' is your only concern, then why not use eugenics and forced sterilization and gas chambers? Why not tell the populace what to think?
This has been dealt with; noting political skill does not mean approval of the specifics. Also dealt with was the assertion that Nazi policies were actually disruptive.
Go ahead and prove that Hitler was objectively evil. Knowing those criteria will be useful later. What's that? Morality is not an objective phenomena? You cannot detect morality in the universe independent of human opinion? What's that? A law of morality would be fundamentally different from any other law of the natural world you've ever found?
Maybe he was immoral because so many people don't like him. Good to know morality is a popularity contest. The concept of good/evil is simply absurd. There are actions that benefit society, actions that do not; actions that benefit the doer and those that do not. Determining which ones are 'good' or not, let alone evil depends upon the lens with which we examine them.
Gender: Male Location: Living my life, fighting my war.
Re: Was Hitler Evil?
First you would have to decide what you believe evil is. For instance, I have a friend who doesn't believe in an actual "Good" and an actual "Evil", as for me I believe that there is Good and Evil, but I don't think a person in and of himself is Good or Evil, but, instead is influenced by either Good or Evil.
The reason I see it that way is because as humans, I believe that we have the capacity for both, and can choose what path to follow. Though I don't believe that a person that chooes an evil path is evil in and of himself, because he still has the ability and chance to turn from that path, whereas if he wer evil in and of himself then he would have no ability to leave an evil path.
It makes my stomach lurch every time I read one of Goebbel's speeches or articles and hear him hate on the Jews. Why? Because one of my favorite teachers was openly Jewish. I respect and like her and still talk to her even after graduating. It makes me feel horrible and ashamed of my admiration for the man. I fear if she knew of my interest in the man that she'd hate me for it.
I do not worship Hitler or Nazism. I do not parade around giving a Hitler salute (which predates Hitler and should not be exclusively linked with Nazism) . I simply find some policies agreeable and even with the policies I don't agree with, there's no denying their effectiveness.
Also, did you know it was Goebbels who first pronounced that there'd be an iron curtain between the Soviet Union and the rest of the world? Funny how Mr. Churchill is credited for it in most texts I've read and the texts I remember most are my school history textbooks.
Propaganda is as much a part of life now as it was back in Nazi Germany. Because politics cannot exist in any form without it.
Not sure if I'm getting you. Are you just saying it's normal to read something like that and feel repulsed?
I would hope so. I was just defending myself against accusations of Hitler worship.
No I'm saying that your justification is weak. You should dislike Hitler and the Nazis because you know someone who's Jewish, you should dislike them because of the genocide no matter who you know or don't know.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
A personal reason is always a stronger justification.
It's all well and good to say "I hate HItler killed Jewish people" but what if you personally knew a Holocaust survivor? You will have a stronger dislike for the man than if you just knew he killed some people you didn't know.
I got nothing against Jewish people or any ethnicity or religion. I just happen to feel bad about admiring a man who caused so much suffering to a group someone I know belongs to.
sigh I knew using that word would bite me in the ass. I only used it because I could think of no other. As it is, I believe there is no such thing as evil. However, certain things can be proven to be illogical, harmful and hateful and it is these which should fall under the term 'evil'. If a person uses their genius to try to prove the earth is hollow, their genius ceases to be admirable (admirable being a term used for something inspirational and for something people can aspire too). If a person uses their genius to murder people, their genius ceases to be admirable. etc etc
And I don't care a fig for what Goebbels thought about himself. I only know I consider him a moron and thats all I care about. Just becuase He thought he was right doesn't make him anything less than a raving loony.
Nah, common sense is common sense. The theory of gravity wasn't common sense at the time and thus is a poor example.
Where did I say that made him wrong. Don't put words in my mouth.
Manipulation can be proven to be harmful to people and thus shouldn't be deemed as a quality people should aspire to have, else we would promote anarchy and wide-spread harm. If we promoted the concept of people taking what they wanted by guile then we would see a negative impact upon society. For that reason, manipulation and deceit shouldn't be held as admirable and good.
Something that harm other or yourself/both.
First, I'm skinny as a rake and have never willingly worked out in my life. Second, why wouldn't you think improving the body is admirable? By itself it's only positive. Personally I think you are now just being argumentative for the hell of it, because that first bit was frankly stupid and beneath you.
Because such things take away freedom, the very bedrock of society and mankind. Not only that, but they are demonstrably illogical and in no way helpful to society. You can't 'cure' mental defects and disease via eugenics. Where do you think that these things came from in the first place, because they can't always have been passed on. You are merely hurting people in search of an apparent good,.
Becuase killing the Jews isnt good for society.
Absolutely agree and am stumpted as to why you thought any differently.
@ Luminatus
A war which was partially caused by the Goebbles approved policy of mass genocide.
Only if you term members of its own populace being carted off to be executed. And if you ignore the perpetual fear of being reported as an enemy of the state to the Nazi's. Or if you term 'stability' as forced stability.
So you admire him becuase he thought that genocide was acceptable as long as he gained power. How high-minded of you.
Policies which drove Germay to the point of ruin for the second time in 30 years. Which caused the murder of other 3 million people and the incalculable cost of war. Yeah, they're really effective. Or maybe you admire the policy of punching a nation into submission and denying it basic human rights, becuase that's a really 'effective' policy isn't it.
hitler was probably evil if he wasnt mentally ill to the point that his actions were not his responsibility. he had no empathy for parts of the human race, he found PLEASURE in torturing and belittling others, actively going out of his way to inflict as much of it on the jews in as painful ways, as he cud fathom{sadism and narcissism on that level, unjustified by serious mental illness are a good marker for objective EVIL}, he did not feel guilty about sending his self proclaimed comrades to their deaths in the battlefield or outside it{hypocrisy/betrayel, also a good indicater of evil}. he did to other what he would never have allowed, done unto him, and had no justified inherent superiority to base it on. he loved almost no1 and hated others liberally, and had horrendous effects on the world which were based on his premeditated intentions.
all of this combined makes him EVIL. but, that also makes pat robertson evil.
None of those things can be proved to equal evil though. There is no giant rulebook in the sky with a definition of absolute morality. You can say that from your point of view, he was evil, but you can't state that as fact.
i can say that from HUMANITY's point of view, he was evil. i can also say that if he or others as individuals DENY this point of view, they are being hypocritical in the same sense that a person who claims that he is inherently superior to other humans beings based on birth or skin colour is beign hypocritical because he or she isnt basing that claim in any facts.
KMC Community Forums
May 22nd, 2009 08:19 PM
/sarcasm
