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The Mark of the Beast (666)
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Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do you believe that there is a case when a cat is not a cat? If you don't then that belief is absolute.

Where is the absolute cat?
A cat is matter that was made in stars.
A cat is also a chat in france.
After a cat dies, it is no longer a cat; it is now a dead cat.
Where is the absolute cat?

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:21 AM

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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Could someone explain to me what exactly an absolute is in this context?

It's a very mushy (vaguely defined) word.

As in "absolute truth". Certain and not dependent on perspective.

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:22 AM

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JesusIsAlive
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Could someone explain to me what exactly an absolute is in this context?

It's a very mushy (vaguely defined) word.

https://school.carm.org/amember/fil...ogic/3logic.htm

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:22 AM

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Symmetric Chaos
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Gender: Male
Location: Ko-ro-ba

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Where is the absolute cat?
A cat is matter that was made in stars.
A cat is also a chat in france.
After a cat dies, it is no longer a cat; it is now a dead cat.
Where is the absolute cat?

Your argument is not convincing, oh wait... you don't have an argument.

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Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.

Nov 26th, 2009 02:23 AM

Zamp
The Blind Critic

Gender: Male
Location: Haven

quote:
This is particularly important in a society where relativism is promoted and truth statements are denied.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
As in "absolute truth". Certain and not dependent on perspective.

"Certain and not dependent on perspective" in matters of fact? Questions about the state of the natural world are examples of independent truth. Questions about how the natural world should be [link to Hume's guillotine] are not. Shaky, are you denying the objective nature of reality?

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:29 AM

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Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Your argument is not convincing, oh wait... you don't have an argument.

Plagiarist. stick out tongue

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:29 AM

Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis

"Certain and not dependent on perspective" in matters of fact? Questions about the state of the natural world are examples of independent truth. Questions about how the natural world should be [link to Hume's guillotine] are not. Shaky, are you denying the objective nature of reality?

No.

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:31 AM

Zamp
The Blind Critic

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Location: Haven

So then your statement "there are no absolutes" and "a cat is a cat" are not contradictory. One asserts the non-existence of moral certainty (or at least the inability of humans to attain such) and the other acknowledges the concrete nature of reality.

Am I getting closer?

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:36 AM

Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
So then your statement "there are no absolutes" and "a cat is a cat" are not contradictory. One asserts the non-existence of moral certainty (or at least the inability of humans to attain such) and the other acknowledges the concrete nature of reality.

Am I getting closer?

In a way. Things are not as they seem. Just because we call an animal a cat doesn't mean anything in an absolute way. There are absolutes in the way humans think because we are limited. We project that limitation onto the world around us, and get confused by it.

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Nov 26th, 2009 02:58 AM

tsilamini
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In a way. Things are not as they seem. Just because we call an animal a cat doesn't mean anything in an absolute way. There are absolutes in the way humans think because we are limited. We project that limitation onto the world around us, and get confused by it.

so then there could be cases of an "absolute cat" which is not called a "cat", making it a cat that is not a cat?

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Nov 26th, 2009 03:03 AM

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Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
so then there could be cases of an "absolute cat" which is not called a "cat", making it a cat that is not a cat?

I wouldn't know.

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Nov 26th, 2009 03:05 AM

tsilamini
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but it is hypothetically possible?

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yes, a million times yes

Nov 26th, 2009 03:06 AM

Zamp
The Blind Critic

Gender: Male
Location: Haven

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In a way. Things are not as they seem. Just because we call an animal a cat doesn't mean anything in an absolute way. There are absolutes in the way humans think because we are limited. We project that limitation onto the world around us, and get confused by it.

This sounds like you're playing off of the symbolic nature of language:
Our symbols are imperfect, so any meaning they are used to convey might also be imperfect.

This sounds dangerously like solipsism.

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Nov 26th, 2009 03:09 AM

tsilamini
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solipsism isn't wrong, its just that what appear to be other people all seem to agree about certain things.

there is no real argument against that being true, other than to say the 100% inter-rater reliability on objective reality is informative.

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yes, a million times yes

Nov 26th, 2009 03:13 AM

JesusIsAlive
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2 Timothy 3:7
always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

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Life After Death? || Bill Wiese

Proof of Hell? || Dr. Donald Whitaker, Research-Scientist/Chemist

Nov 26th, 2009 03:17 AM

Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
solipsism isn't wrong, its just that what appear to be other people all seem to agree about certain things.

there is no real argument against that being true, other than to say the 100% inter-rater reliability on objective reality is informative.

But istn't that also just another product of our limited mind?

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Nov 26th, 2009 03:20 AM

tsilamini
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But istn't that also just another product of our limited mind?

yup, the argument is more about how limited rather than whether we can know absolute reality or not

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yes, a million times yes

Nov 26th, 2009 03:32 AM

Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
yup, the argument is more about how limited rather than whether we can know absolute reality or not

But that is not the argument that I am having with JIA. He believes that there is an absolute and that he has been given information that is hidden from us. This is a pervasive tactic used by religious fundamentalists.

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Nov 26th, 2009 04:03 AM

JesusIsAlive
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But that is not the argument that I am having with JIA. He believes that there is an absolute and that he has been given information that is hidden from us. This is a pervasive tactic used by religious fundamentalists.

The origin of the universe is not hidden from you.

It has been recorded in the pages of Scripture i.e. the holy Bible.

__________________
Life After Death? || Bill Wiese

Proof of Hell? || Dr. Donald Whitaker, Research-Scientist/Chemist

Nov 26th, 2009 04:37 AM

Shakyamunison
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

Gender: Male
Location: Southern Oregon, Looking at you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The origin of the universe is not hidden from you.

It has been recorded in the pages of Scripture i.e. the holy Bible.

That is a lie that was told to you. The universe is far older then 6,000 years. The bible is just stories told by humans about things that are important to humans. The bible has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe.

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Nov 26th, 2009 05:57 AM

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