Have you read the critical reviews of these movies on websites like RottenTomatoes.com? Those movies are both pretty high rated movies I think Batman I scores in the 70%s and Batman Returns in the 80%. They were bad movies in many people's opinions? They got good critical reviews, strong box office performances, good DVD sales and high marks from critics. It sounds like overall most people did like the movies enough to buy them, pay to see them and enough for them to get mostly good marks from critics.
And like I said maybe you did not accept Keaton as Batman but the majority of people who saw the films did accept him because after Batman I the hatemail stopped coming in. And he was asked back by the studio to do Batman II and III even AFTER they got rid of Tim Burton. So clearly the studio was not getting pressure to get rid of him.
So again like I said that is the opinion of you and a group of Bat fans who have decided that the movies were shit but the general consensus of the public and critics seems to say otherwise and there are plenty of Batman fans who may have qualms with Batman I and Batman II but still love them and cherish them whether you like it or not.
And as far as the corny scripts I actually like the dialogue a bit more in Batman 1989 because it has so many memorable lines as compared to Batman Begins which was mostly Katie Holmes annoying character preaching. But that's just me I guess maybe I am the only one who loves to quote Batman 1989
__________________ Bruce: You've got, sort of a dark side, don't you?
Selina: No darker than yours, Bruce
Last edited by SelinaAndBruce on Jul 31st, 2007 at 06:51 PM
Nobody is saying to you or forcing you on not like those tim burton batman movies, its just your opinion, and this is mine. But please, dont try to behave like your opinion is the right one and the rest not.
Lets see, yes , batman and batman returns got great box office, but box offices doesnt mean quality. I could post a big list with great movies with poor box office and bad movies with a great box office. Its more an issue about marketing, good campaings and people interested in see those movies. The first batman movie was a record, and its logical, a lot of people wanted to see it because it was the first time with batman in big screen. The quality doesnt matter here.
But if you see the batman begins ratings in webs like rottentomatoes, metacritic or imdb, they are superior in all the cases. I can asure you that there a majority of people who liked batman begins better than the burton movies.
I have said it a lot ot fimes. Batman begins isnt perfect, it had its flaws. Katie holmes character was one of them. The character was weak and the actress wasnt at the same level of the other people. But she was a supporting character. Do you want to know about the supporting characters in batman and batman returns? Gordon, mayor, knox, bob the gun, that pair of nerds in the penguins campaing, the ice princess, chip srhek. Come on, dont be unfair here. Batman begins have a lot of memorable characters, and one flaw character. Batman and batman returns had a lot of flawed characters.
The script and the lines? It was way better in begins. The acting of ALL THE CAST was superb, and the lines were great. Compare the penguin stupid lines in batman returns with the ra's al goul lines in begins, for example. Or alfred dialogue with bruce. It was great. I woulnt say that it was one of the best script and lines ever, but for sure, they were great and not so campy as the ones in the burton movies.
What mr parker, myself and lot of people more want to say is just that in our opinion, the tim burton batman films were bad and failed in an artistic level. And that batman begins was far superior .And that is a matter of fact. I have never read coments against begins so hard as the ones against the burton films. And im talking about the reviews in several countries.
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Helen Mirren and Julie Christie , most lovely british actresses of all time.
And about keaton reprising his role. He repraised his role because tim burton did a sequel because the susscess of the first film in the box office, and he wanted keaton as batman.
So, keeping your theory, chris o'donnel was a great robin because he repraised his role as robin in batman and robin. And george Clooney was a great batman because shumacher wanted him to reprise his role in a possible batman 5. And pat hingle was the best gordon ever because he repraised his role in all the movies.
__________________ The beatles, best group ever.
John Lennon, Musical genius of all time
Helen Mirren and Julie Christie , most lovely british actresses of all time.
and to 'selinaandbruce' who said Batman Begins was just katie holmes preaching, rottentomatoes? i dont need a tomatometer to tell me what blows and what doesnt...how dare you, no memorable lines?
there were so many, Liam Neeson's speech to Bruce about becoming more than a man, but a symbol. Caine's quoting of Bruce's Father. Batman saying what really defines him. etc. again...appears as if you spit on Nolan's masterpiece, the only reason why batman 89 was accepted critically, was because it was the first of its kind, just like spider-man 1. Previous to those films, there was none other. I dont really care what critics say anyways because the only give good reviews to the types of movies like "Hotel Rwanda" & "Schindler's List".
Er excuse me when Mr Parker stops telling us that anybody who like Burton isnt a true Batman fan them maybe some of us will stop ranting. And nobody is saying you dont have a right to your opinion were just getting pissed off with the Batman facism.
Yeah whatever thats your opinion, we just dont like it getting shoved down our throat.
Really, what suprise and could you please tell us what Burton fan doesnt like Nolan? So whats the point of making that point?
Again your making a case that you shouldnt be. No Burton fan here doesnt like Nolan and doesnt think that BB was better, the only reason why were are exposing flaws in BB is to high-light the hypocrisy. It seems the flaws in BB people dont seem to mind but the flaws in Burton people makes a song and dance about.
Whatever.
At the end of the day if you dont like Burton thats up to you, but Mr Parker is an idiot. I would please like you to expalin to me what sort of idiot tells you that you cant use DKR as reference because it was made in the late 80s, then failing to realise that the film he loves BB was based on Batman Year One which was made in the late 80s, this is pure and utter hypocrisy.
What we also find irritating is some of the reasons other people give for hating Burton for example you will say things like Batman killed lots of people in a chemical factory and failing to notice that Batman killed a load of ninjas at the beginning of BB. Basically alot of Burton haters just come off as a bunch of whiners who are just looking for something to b*tch about. If you were at least consistent we wouldnt mind.
Duhhhhhh you are taking what she said out of context. What wrong with you? Selina didnt say there were no memorable lines this was in reference to what somebody else saying that Burton Batman had a corny script. If you take what shes saying into context all she is saying is that she liked BB but prefered Burtons script.
Good god, grow up nobody is spitting on Nolans work, if you could actually understand that for starters that would help.
Furthermore the whole point why Selaina mentioned the critics is because were fed up of the Burton haters acting like only their opinion counts. Also from what I can remember is that Selina pointed out was that it wasnt just the critics that loved it but the public in general.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
If any of you ever saw the Evening with Kevin Smith movies, I believe in the second one, he mentions a back and forth media thing between the two over Kevin Smith's "Chasing Dogma" comic, and Tim Burton was quoted as saying "I would never read a comic book, especially one from Kevin Smith".
Kevin said the first thing he thought of was Batman.
lol.
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Just like you did when you just said point blank they were bad movies. The point of my post was not to discredit Batman Begins. Here's a shocker, I happen to really like Batman Begins and it restored my faith in Batman movies and I think it is a really great film that told the Batman story better than it has been told on screen before and I pretty much liked almost everything about it.
The point of my post was your claiming that Batman and Batman Returns were bad movies. They weren't. They received mostly favorable critical reviews as well as strong box office success indicating that overall they were considered worth while movies. You may not like them and have problems with them but that does not automatically make them poor pieces of cinema.
That's all I was saying. You want to quote Rottentomatoes when it comes to the ratings of Begins my point was not that Batman and Batman Returns area better than Begins. Begins is clearly an overall more polished product than the latter two and deserves the high rating that it got.
And the other point of my post was that Keaton was asked to reprise the role for Batman in the THIRD Batman installment AFTER they got rid of Tim Burton for Joel Schumacher. You are the one who claims only Tim Burton wanted Michael Keaton but that statement is in fact in correct most people had accepted Michael Keaton as Batman otherwise why would Warner Bros get rid of Tim Burton and not scrap Michael Keaton if most people thought he was such a terrible choice? C'mon....you may not like Michael Keaton but after Batman I he was accepted in the role by the general population whether you want to admit it or not.
__________________ Bruce: You've got, sort of a dark side, don't you?
that other post of yours was great bakerboy but this one you REALLY took her to school on about keaton.well done.you werent kidding about the script and lines.The ones in Batman Begins were a hundred times better.thats so obvious.
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Last edited by Mr Parker on Aug 1st, 2007 at 07:19 PM
yeah i remember hearing about that before.Yeah thats hilaroius that the first thing he thought of was Burtons Batman as someone who never read a comic.
He didn't take me anywhere Warner Bros asked for Keaton back after they took Burton off the project. Keaton left because he did not like the direction the franchise was going in.
__________________ Bruce: You've got, sort of a dark side, don't you?
Hahaha. yes, great sentence by Kevin Smith. In fact, Burton and Keaton had admited that they didnt read any comic of batman.
Thanks for your support, mr parker. But im tired of this bunch of lies and i want to finish it. Lets see, selina, you are saying that the fact that warner bros wanted keaton to reprise his role in the third means that he was a great batman? This is the true story. After the record at the box office of the first batman, burton wanted to do the sequel with keaton again because he was confortable working with him. That was the fact on casting him in the first part, because keaton was a good friend of him and he was confortable working with him in beetlejuice.
Now, lets go with the third one. At first, burton wanted to do the movie, but warner not because the second one was too dark. He left the proyect and then, warner got Joel Schumacher to do the movie. Schumacher at first DIDNT want keaton to reprise his role because he wanted his own vision of the character, but acepted to reunite with keaton because warner wanted do deal with him because HE WAS BATMAN IN THE FIRST TWO MOVIES. But he passed because he didnt like the scritp and the direction of the franchise and he left. But Schumacher didnt want him to play the role, he talked with him because he was the previous batman.
Now lets go with another issue. Bruce wayne , as we saw in batman begins( and not in the tim burton movies) trained his body, his spirit and his mind over 15 years of his life. He was a perfect human, trained in all the martial arts and kind of fights, one of the best detectives in the world with a brillant mind and with a muscular body after years of training.
And i have to believe that michael keaton, the everyman , with not muscle in his body, was that man? Please, that casting choice was pretty ridiculous. I could believe that chistian bale was that man, but not michael keaton.
__________________ The beatles, best group ever.
John Lennon, Musical genius of all time
Helen Mirren and Julie Christie , most lovely british actresses of all time.
Well, technically, Keaton's Batman displayed more detective skills than Bale's Batman... In Begins, Bale's Bruce didn't even study detective skills, let alone show any skills at being a detective, while in Batman 89, Keaton's Batman was able to decipher what was in the Joker toxin...
Well, technically, everyone has muscles, so technically, Keaton does have muscle in his body... Just saying
He displayed some detective work in the first batman movie. Its true. But bale too, helping rachel and the city against the scarecrow's toxin.
About the muscle, yes, even alfred had muscule in his body. But not the muscular body of somebody who has been trained for 15 years to be the most perfect human ever.
__________________ The beatles, best group ever.
John Lennon, Musical genius of all time
Helen Mirren and Julie Christie , most lovely british actresses of all time.
Yeah trust me,the keaton apologists cant be reasoned with.you and Nixom took them to school on it and gave them an education on how Keaton sucked so bad as i did earlier so really no need to stick around anymore.it just goes through one ear and out the other with them how horribly miscast keaton was in that role.Like you said,the ONLY reason that idiot Burton cast him in the first place was because Burton had worked with him before and Burton felt comfortable working with him.He never cared about making the best casting choice possible or about pissing on the true batman fans such as us who would never accept such a horrible casting choice as keaton.as Nixom said so well earlier,thank god Burton at least was allowed to do superman returns like he was initially suppose to,he would have gone and made mockery out of THAT film as well just as he did with batman 89 because the proof in the pudding that Burton knows nothing about comicbook movies like batman is he was actually going to cast Nicholas cage as Superman. can you imiagine THAT? he was going to cast Cage as superman and have him dress in some black outfit. you and Nixom tried to reason with them on things like that but you found out like i did,that it just goes through one ear and out the other with the apologists,so yeah,its best to just walk away at this point.you took them to school,you dont need to educate them anymore.
__________________
Last edited by Mr Parker on Aug 2nd, 2007 at 07:18 PM
Well maybe Burton hadnt read a comic but somebody obvoulsy had read DKR
Which he does but your obvoulsy to thick to get it and again the REASON why we brought it up anyway was to highlight the hypocrisy....for the love of god you still havent addressed the point of why you still like BB when its based on a Batman series created in the late 80s.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
True enough but if that was how he felt Forever would have been his best shot because that had more time at home with Bruce and Dick and Bruce and Chase than the other films did but he still left.
__________________ Bruce: You've got, sort of a dark side, don't you?
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Jul 31st, 2007 06:41 PM
