hehehe... i made a much more bitter summary at one point... yours was awfully nice.
for betrayal 1, i believe the deal is actually that Will bargains to turn Jack over to Sao as soon as he has retrieved him from DJL, with provision for Will to take possession of the pearl. So it's a bargain based on Sao wanting personal revenge on Jack, and being willing to help Will bring him back in order to have it. Plus, Sao is already plotting to keep the pearl at this point, once it's back. Sao's charts are necessary for getting both things back. what doesn't come across in the film, but was hinted at in the script, is that Will and Sao made their bargain much earlier, when Will was caught by Sao.
It's hinted at in the film too. Sao says something about how the only way pirates can make a profit is by betraying other pirates...then he looks at Will, who sort of responds to that statement. Just thought I'd point that out.
I could do the plot summary if you want.
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Lol, I didn't think I left that much out, did I? Sao and Jack...that could have been another fun backstory to go into. Just what did Jack do to piss Sao off so much? I mean, besides being Jack. Sao's an interesting guy. Shame he got blown away after all of his 15 minutes onscreen.
Terry: (enters room) Hello, what's this? (Sits down at desk, reads what Ted has written) Oh my! (continues reading) Oh dear God! This is DISNEY, Ted! One more line and we would have a rape case on our hands... (quickly scribbles a new line, then reads what he's written) "Suddenly, a canonball comes through the wall and kills Sao outright." (smiles) Phew! Catastrophe averted.
Later that night... a heated argument is afoot in the office.
Ted: She could take him!
Terry: You are never going to convince me that Elizabeth could take a 200 pound Chinese man who is armed and trained to fight. You're pushing credibility here.
Ted: (mumbling angrily) And you weren't pushing it with the magically-growing Calypso crab-cake fiasco?
Terry: What was that?
Ted: Nothing.
Terry: I'm sorry Ted. You have to let Sao go.
Ted: But it screws up the whole plot! It ruins his character's arc!
Terry: Arc, schmark. There was no other way to save Elizabeth. You wrote yourself into a corner, now you need to deal with the consequences. (Ted pouts). I'm sure the fans will understand.
hehehe... only if you join me! we can explain all the problems in AWE as problems between the writers, directors, and actors. maybe it will make us feel better.
Ted is sitting happily in the office, writing. Terry calls in from the other room.
Terry: Ted! Your mother is on the phone. She wants to know why Orlando keeps calling her.
Ted: Oh bother. (leaves room.)
Terry enters, spies the manuscript on Ted's desk. Snickers. Sits down, flips on the TV to a telenovella, in which someone is dying dramatically. Watches entranced for a few minutes.
Terry: I'm inspired! (begins writing furiously. Ted re-enters and surveys the scene.)
Ted: Hey! I thought we agreed I would write the scene where James and Elizabeth run away together!
Terry: I just had this brilliant idea... (Ted snatches up the page and reads.)
Ted: What?! YOU JUST KILLED JAMES!
Terry: I know! Isn't it tragically beautiful?
Ted: You CANNOT keep killing all the best characters, Terry! We have contracts with these actors. We have fans that are looking forward to a triumphant film 3.
Terry: This is our chance, Ted, to have a real tear-jerk moment!
Ted: Have you been watching telenovellas again?
Terry: Okay, listen, I'll make you a deal. You let me kill off James, and I'll let you write in a love-scene for Elizabeth and a character of your choice.
Ted: (tempted) Ooooo... I'm intrigued. Any character?
Terry: Yes. Except because it's disney, it has to be the young male lead, and she has to be married to him. Deal?
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Tee hee. I feel naughty doing this. Why start at AWE? Let's explore the writer's ideas about DMC.
Is there one who is crazier than the other?
(Ted is sitting alone in the writing room, biting his pencil. He seems frustrated. Suddenly, Terry bursts through the door.)
Terry: The movie's saved!
Ted: I didn't know it was ever in danger.
Terry: That's okay. I didn't expect you to. See, I was walking down the street, and this lady just all of a sudden starts chasing me.
Ted: Sounds like a normal day for you.
Terry: Yeah, well, she had an empty bottle with her.
Ted: Like a baby bottle?
Terry: Like a rum bottle. She asked how we could have possibly passed up writing Shrek 2 and she chased me around and hit me on the head with it.
Ted: That explains that. (he points to a nice trail of blood down the side of Terry's head) You may want to get that checked out.
Terry: No, it's nothing. But I've decided: Elizabeth is going to hit Norrington over the head with a bottle.
Ted: But aren't they on the same side?
Terry: Yeah, but we discussed Elizabeth was really the best pirate of them all, didn't we?
Ted: Yes but, wow, you're really bleeding.
Terry: So what she's going to do is turn on him to HELP him. Make sense? (Ted gives him blank look) It will foreshadow what Keira wanted us to do in the first place.
Ted: You mean that idea about her character kissing Johnny's character? He doesn't like romantic scenes with her. She's a little kid to him.
Terry: It won't be romantic. No one will find it romantic, not even sexy. She's going to kill him.
Ted: Zuh? Again, they're on the same side.
Terry: No. She'll kiss him and kill him. (taps his head) It's all up here.
Ted: No, it all looks like it's making a puddle on the floor. I don't know...if we do that, some really screwed up people will start "shipping" them (shudders at the term) and then other people will want to know how she could do that to Will and it's going to cause a big rift.
Terry: This coming from the man who cried when they cut out our peas in a pod scene.
Ted: You...(huffs) Fine! I'll write the best kiss of death scene known to man.
hehehehe.... this is hilarious. in a sort of weird way. i dont know why t and t strike me as sit com characters. hahahahaha. that's brilliant willo.
Terry is sitting at his desk, bored. Ted walks in.
Terry: Ted, do you ever feel like you've hit your stride and passed yourself all at the same time?
Ted: Um, hello. Aladdin was pretty much the tippy top for us, pal. We've been downhill ever since.
Terry: I mean, sitting in the theatre when Jack and Elizabeth kissed... how will we ever beat that?
Ted: It was pretty intense. Nicole Kidman held my hand. I haven't washed it since.
Terry: Don't you feel like we should pull something really dramatic for film 3?
Ted: What about Jack and Elizabeth sleeping together isn't dramatic?
Terry: Oh come on. I'm thinking bigger than that.
Ted: You can't get much bigger than that. In one day, we'll change the face of disney forever.
Terry: Come on Ted! I'm thinking... we kill off a main character.
Ted: (yawns) Groundbreaking.
Terry: And then bring him back to life!
Ted: (rolls eyes) Okay, good, then we can join the ranks of every disney film ever written. including the one we just finished.
Terry: It'll be so crazy... we'll totally psych them all out...
Ted: Um, Terry, we already killed off Jack.
Terry: I know. So let's kill off Will. We've got to keep his character interesting.
PART TWO:
Terry comes in, spitting mad.
Ted: You're blowing smoke out of your ears again. Did Gore ask for another rewrite?
Terry: If that skinny british princess complains one more time about her character's lack of scenes with Jack...
Ted: Calm down, Terry. She's oscar hungry. You win one, suddenly all you want is one more.
Terry: She's going to ruin the honeymoon scene. She hardly looks at Orlando. (puts his head in his hands) I can't do this anymore. I can't create chemistry!
Ted: (massages Ted's shoulders) I know, I know. (Terry begins to sob) You know what might make you feel better? Why don't you get out that scene you wrote when you were really mad at Keira before? We could have Gore add it back in, if you want.
Terry: (smiling through his tears) Really? You'd do that for me?
Ted: I know you're upset. If turning Keira's beloved character into a single mom will provide you with some much needed revenge, then go for it.
Terry: Oh goody! Can we call costumes and sneak in your mom's old mu mu for her to wear in the scene???
Oh come on. The film wasn't that bad. And the writers are not remotely like that, thanks very much. I know it's your way of trying to justify what you feel were vast plot holes because Elizabeth didn't have sex with Jack and Elizabeth didn't have Jack Jr. If it had been Jack returning after ten years to his wife and son you'd have loved it. Admit it and move on.
About Jack and Elizabeth: I realize this is a film, I realize it's a fantasy setting. However, how we view films often portrays what and how we feel about things in RL. The fact that so many people find this murder excuseable makes me wonder about what all you might be willing to let slide for "love". It's a valid question and one I think everyone should look into. What darkside do you tap into to enjoy it.
Because think about it -- even if we say that Jack and Elizabeth had a fine, non-abusive relationship before he dies, it does not change the facts of what Elizabeth did. If we remove Will from the equation and assume that Elizabeth only killed Jack because she was so in love with him it frightened her and she hd to get rid of him, that isn't really very healthy either, is it?
Again, I'll use the battered woman scenario. A man and woman are together. They get along fairly well, they are attractive together, and anyone looking at them might think they have great chemistry together. Under all that though is a darker current, which finally comes to a head when the man realizes he loves the woman so much that he can't deal with it. So he beats her badly. She is nearly destroyed physically. The months of recovery are hellish and pain-filled. The mental anguish of not being able to trust anyone ever again consumes her, as does a sort of guilt because obviously she must have brought this on herself. The depression is so bad that she is nearly driven mad by it. It takes years to recover.
Would you ever send her back to that man because he did it out of love?
No.
Now think about Jack. Yes, he was impressed with Elizabeth's action. He teases her, and he lets her go, because he needs to deal with his own situation now. He doesn't have time to hate her or even be angry. He has his own survival to deal with. Unfortunately, just as he is freed, he faces death.
And it's not pretty. Lots of pointy teeth. I imagine that his death probably hurt. It probably hurt a lot. Assuming he survived the teeth, his torn and battered body would have fallen into the stomach of the Kraken, which assuming it has a fairly normal biology, Jack would have been burned alive by the acid in the stomach. There's also a chance he would have suffocated, which is also rather painful.
Then he wakes up in DJL. He has his ship, but he is stranded alone in a desert. No food, no water. Endless hot sun beating down on him, little to no shade, barely a breeze. No relief. Then the facets of his personality come out. Little by little he sees the best, and the worst of himself, without anyone else to keep him company. Days, weeks, probably months of torture, fragmenting more and more until Jack's very sanity, always somewhat questionable to begin with, is in terrible danger.
He is rescued, but not without cost. He has lost much of himself in DJL, he is torn apart --- ALL of this is because of Elizabeth. We don't know what Jack intended to do, because Elizabeth stole the choice from him. So Elizabeth is responsible not only for his physical death, but for the torture he was put through, literally body and soul -- and somehow this is supposed to be proof of her love for him? This is a good thing, and it's good that she wants him back?
Why is it such a plot hole that Jack wants to get as far from Elizabeth as possible? She HURT him beyond imagining. She very nearly destroyed him. She shouldn't have Jack, because she could not treat him properly.
With Will, it's a bit different. She does anything for him. He does nearly anything for her. It's still unhealthy, but Will is able to balance her out, make her see her good side, and is able to give her a reason to fight that shadow in her.
Sorry, long discussion. I know you all feel very strongly about J/E, but it still makes me curious that when you break down all of Jack's suffering because of Lizzie, why you'd want him to be with her.
So explain. Yes, it's fictional, but as I said, how we view works of fiction and what we find acceptable or unacceptable are a reflection of who we are on the inside.
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um, i think several of us have made the comment that in awe, both jack and elizabeth change and i don't really care who they end up with by the end of the film. after dmc, i really wanted them to get together. after seeing 10 minutes of awe? i didn't care, i just wanted the film to end. luckily, we send the murderous wench to marry Will, which you regard as perfectly fine, despite her penchant to murder and torture of people she is close to.
yep, you are right, the fact that i like jack and lizzie probably means i am messed up in the head, S and M, like abusive relationships, want Jack to suffer, etc. etc. etc. that's getting pretty old already. the majority of this forum was obsessed with sparrabeth- you think we're all crazy about torture and abuse and punishment or something? come on. we've all made hundreds of pages of arguments as to why we enjoy sparrabeth, and i'm getting sick of trying to explain it to you when ultimately, who you like is a matter of personality. so stop attacking our personalities just because you dont like the same couple we do.
i can take a stab at why your personal experience would lead you to reject JL and go for the more traditionally romantic pairing. If you want me to go into personal detail about this topic, pm me, and i'd be happy to explain my penchant for sparrabeth according to my own life experience.
all of the characters are dangerous. all of the characters have betrayed another. Liz put Will through tons of psychological torment. Will lied to Liz and almost got her raped by Sao. Willo already elaborated on the Tia/DJ mess. they are all pirates... bad people... why would you want any of them to be with any of them??? because its a MOVIE and i'm paying 7.50 to be entertained, not given a realistic look at historical piracy or the like.
and last of all, Elizabeth didn't condemn Jack to death. Davy Jones did. Jack made a bargain, it was Jack's choice all along. It was going to catch up with him at some point. He had to face his decisions. What, was he going to escape with them and sit on land the rest of his life? Or for 10 years until Davy Jones came and finished him off? No. The kraken was going to get him, one way or another. Jack bargained with Jones to get the Pearl, and that was the consequence. So yeah, Elizabeth had a hand in it happening when it did, but it wasn't like she just randomly decided he had to die.
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Surreal, don't take too much offense to Kate's and my poking fun at T&T. While I think she's more bitter than I am about AWE, mine is just poking fun at the writing process. A lot of disturbing things happen in POTC and being a writer myself, people look at you differently if you're a wholesome, sane person who writes about very dark things. It's also funny where people get their ideas. What from their personal lives can they use for inspiration for some of the outlandish things that happen in these movies? So I for one am not really criticizing them. I'm having fun with them. They wrote a series I enjoy and I think they're good writers. I think if the things Kate and I "sketched" was on a thread like "The Adventures of T&T" or something, it would be seen as much more in the spirit of fun and good-natured ribbing.
t and t have written ALL of my favorite films.. aladdin, mask of zorro, etc... i think they are BRILLIANT, i just also enjoy imagining their writing process. and i dont really like what they did with awe, but i feel perfectly okay about having that opinion, because as writers i respect them.
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All my thanks to savvysparrowluv!
Sep 8th, 2007 05:06 PM
Just thought I'd point that out.
i dont know why t and t strike me as sit com characters. hahahahaha. that's brilliant willo.
The film wasn't that bad. And the writers are not remotely like that, thanks very much. 
