I'm somewhat of a hybrid.
I only like characters with good defense such as Superman, WW, Spider-man, IW, and HP DD. I don't like Hulk (not fast enough or can fly), Juggernaut (same as Hulk), Thor (not fast enough and has been hit many times to drop the hammer), SS (not fast enough in battle), Storm (not bulletproof or have sufficient reflexes) etc. So I'm not a true comic fan I guess (only a logical one).
I'm a mathematican, martial artist, physicist (almost though), and lastly a comic fan. I'm mostly a comic fan because I desperately want some super powers. I might be crazy though because everyday I think about having super powers. It seems that is my purpose in life (to find a way to grant me super powers). So I don't blame you or anyone for not taking me serious.
I just look at these characters from a totally logical standpoint. That means I only look at power set and optimal strategies (I'm like game theory). I hardly ever use the outcome of actually comic battles for evidence because characters almost never fight optimal (most of the time they fight stupidly).
And being a martial artist myself, I know many moves that can end the fight in one move. But what am I nothing compared to Diana's skills alone. So giving her a tiara that is capable of decapitating Gods and I don't see BA winning this. Maybe my opinion would be different if someone says that Diana must fight without weapons. Till then I don't see how BA gets past that tiara in her hand.
Logically, if you give Diana 2 wins for the lasso (I would give her more though if she decided 100% on that strategy) then you must at least give her 2 for the tiara and then 1 for the supreme skill (like cap vs. a class 50) and I will be satisfied with 5/10.
It explained no such thing.
Try pulling that stuff on someone who hasn't read Trials of Shazam.
The image of Hercules was the true D.C Hercules.
Plus what will be odd if some other god named Hercules was also a god that symbolized physical strength?
I will tell you.
If there are millions of gods then the odds are greater than 1/1000000000000 (1 over the quantity a million times a million) for two gods to share the same name and symbolizing the same unique power.
Adding the fact that the image was of true Hercules then we have those previous odds combined with the odds that the two gods look exactly the same. I would say these odds then are pratically 0.
Oh characters usually do fight stupidly. Those crazy writers don't understand that the main point of their stories is to provide fodder for our arguments.
What martial art do you study? For how long and what level? I study Aikido. Been at it for four years now which means I'm still getting the basics. (Aikido is a VERY complex art to learn).
I fully understand that, in the real world where people are flesh and blood and can't bounce bullets and take being rocketed to other planets by punches, simple things like knife hands to the throat and such do work as do joint locks. But the difference between the average person and the toughest person in the world isn't equivalent to the difference in ability to take damage that exists between different comic characters.
You desperately need to take some soft styles of martial arts (such as kung-fu or aikido). Because you are arguing from an ignorant standpoint.
First of all, one only has to have sufficient reflexes and be at least a third as fast as the other in order to counter their moves. And Diana not only being blessed with the speed of the god of speed herself, she has the sufficient reflexes and skill to counter any strike from BA with a deadly move of her choice. And if she wants to have fun then she could just combo him to ko after the first hit. I guess you don't know what a combo is either.
Do you know that a second to Diana is like 100 hours or more to a mere human? This is how long it takes BA to even say Shazam. Do you know that lightning is moving at the speed that she perceives in almost still motion? She blocks lasers and multiple light speed beams like a day job.
BA would have a better time just trying to blitz her with his top speed instead of standing there for 100 hours just to say one shazam and to watch it travel in utter slow motion. I doubt he and WW would have the patience for such comedy.
So with the same logic I guess Cap or Batman would have zero chance against a class 50 with more durability. Or I guess that skill means absolutely nothing in comparison to a little more strength and durability.
Thanks for proving that you're bias in this debate.
I said "hardly", meaning I do sometimes.
If we were to use all comic outcomes as the absolute truth then I guess than Spiderman will beat Firelord, WW would beat a sun-amped Superman while holding back (barely lol), Thanos would get beat and taken to police in handcuffs (lol), Onslaught would beat Juggs by pulling a non existent gem out of his chest, etc.
You of all people should know that I speak the truth here.
What are you talking about? I have read "Trials of Shazam" and the whole premise is that there are multiple entities that use the same name.
From "Trials" number 2:
Freddy Freeman: Whatever. So I'm supposed to be tested by the gods. Do we go to Mount Olympus?
Zareb: Mount Olympus? Brother, you don't know anything, do you? The gods of Olympus are Terra-based and hold dominion over an entirely different realm of power. And, y'know, hang with all them Amazon chicks. You, my friend, are dealing with the Lords of Magic. The only thing they have in common with those cats are their "titles". The great god Zeus isn't so much the big fella's name as his station.
Freddy: So there's more than one Zeus, Solomon, Achilles, Mercury, all of them?
Zareb: Yeah. There's millions of them that bear the name.
That's straight from Trials. Read it again and stop trying to read real world mathematical stuff into it. Your math is irrelevant if its NOT a coincidence.
The whole premise is that there are millions of entities with the same title. Clearly the Heracles from TOS is not the same one from Wonder Woman. They may have shown an image of him as some idealized image of the classic Heracles but they are clearly two different entities.
That's one thing that's confusing people about TOS, that both the TOS characters and the ones from WW are identified with mythology. Yet we are told point-blank in Trials that these entities are NOT the gods of Olympus and that there ARE millions of entities with the same name and somehow symbolizing the same concept.
This is hilarious considering that, while you were writing this, I was posting a previous message that I do take Aikido and have been for four years. Real world flesh and blood realities are irrelevant to beings that defy reality.
STOP being a physicist and trying to read real world stuff into this. It doesn't work that way. None of this stuff works by real world physics or logic. We both know that the comics don't remotely reflect this obsessive physics argument. Captain Marvel rains down lightning bolts on Superman. Black Adam rains down lightning bolts on opponents. Opponents that don't even have super speed manage to hit the Flash.
Shove your asanine insults. Don't know what a combo is? You are the one who is ignorant here. Your bias is ridiculous. Let't talk about bias though. Aton- Speed. Gosh I guess that would be the speed of a *god of speed*. Convenient to just *ignore that*. Biased much?
And its not a little more strength and durability. Its the difference between someone that needs to deflect bullets because they hurt her and someone that can survive a universe expanding to full size and being compressed in his skull. Biased much?
I didn't know you studied martial arts. Then I guess you have some knowledge on the subject. My apologies.
I studied Blue Dragon style Kung-Fu for about 2-3 years. It was a mixture of Kenpo Karate, Aikido/Jiu Jitsu, and Classical Kung-Fu with animal styles. And from time to time my master would invite other masters of other styles (like Hapkido and Wing Chun) to teach us a few things. I was a red sash (intermediate) before I stop attending 7 years ago. I plan on going back once I've finished with college (working on my masters). And yes Aikido is very difficult to learn to apply, especially when its your turn to defend yourself against the whole class.
I'm just saying that BA is not so durable to the point where Diana can't hurt him with her bare hands. This implies that the tiara can definitely cut him (since it is sharper than her hands and is indestructible). It is even debatable that her strength rivals that of Superman's. So I see BA as being only a small amount above her in the strength department (if that is even true) and not by leaps and bounds making this a 8-9/10 in BA's favor. I'm also saying that being consistent with the fact that Diana is a supreme master of h2h with and without weapons then this does more than even the slightly unbalanced playing field. Otherwise, she isn't a master of h2h.
Also I was a master at the Street Figher II game and thus I am a true believer at the combo. And I believe that it is possible that if Diana lands the first blow then she is fast enough to combo BA until KO.
I have read through the first 5 issues of TOS in which I have now. It is not actually Hercules that grants CM his strength but a magically god who duplicates Hercules' strength in CM.
The image of Hercules was the exact image of the true D.C. Hercules that is the son of Zues. What was the meaning of that?
Now in comics there are power mirrors through magic.
Meaning that, through magic, a power can be duplicated (mirrored) in another. For example, those who are worthy will have the power of Thor. The enchantment on Mjolnir duplicates Thor's power in the one whose worthy. This is how the Lords of Magic work. They take Hercules strength (as shown in the exact image of him) and duplicate it in another. That way, the real Hercules keeps a copy of his own strength to himself and so does the real Thor.
I deeply apologize for some of my comments as I thought you were totally ignorant to the subject of fighting (They were'nt called even if you were). With that said, I don't consider PIS events (forum rules). Some here (Larceny) say that if it happened and is canon then it is applicable for debate. I disagree, for that would make contradictions able to exist (which is logically impossible). Diana is uber durable to blunt force trauma (blows of Superman or greater) and energy attacks, it is just that sharp piercing objects is her weakness (so is Thor's). Now whether a universe expanding in one's head is greater than Diana cutting BA with a super razor sharp indestructibe tiara that has decapitated greater gods than him is debateble (probably is PIS since Superman himself can definitely hurt BA). For all we know, this universe was minature to the point it fitted in his head. So its force of expanding was probably not more than 100 net lbs. (just guessing).
I think what Larceny said (sorry if I'm wrong) is that there are inconsistencies and you need to go with the standard abilities. But I realize you just want to take everything that happens and find a way to explain how it could happen because otherwise some things are contradictions and couldn't have happened and its annoying.
Apology accepted, by the way.
We ALL tend to be selective and one sided. Once we state an opinion, we become more concerned with defending that opinion than with continuing to discuss possibilities. The inevitable inconsistencies don't make it any easier. In some ways, I prefer just saying, Look, we each choose one side of the argument and its outr job to defend it against rebuttal evidence. Comic characters are far too inconsistent to ever speak in absolute terms.
Regarding WW and blunt trauma, I have always found it annoying that she has to use the bracelets to defend against bullets since they are blunt force trauma but she can take a punch from Superman that sends her rocketing across the solar system and crashing to earth hard enough to create a crater. I'm no physicist but I find it hard to believe that a bullet, regardless of its narrow impact compared to a fist, is as devastating as a punch like that.
Gender: Male Location: Anti-Forum Elitist. I put Elitist i
Account Restricted
[QUOTE=10029760]Originally posted by SupremeMan They 'automatically work' IF she is incredibly faster than him. Nobody has proven that. I've read dozens upon dozens of Wonder Woman comics and Black Adam stuff though I'm more familiar with her. I've been accused of not knowing WW that well but most of the stuff I don't know is from the Justice League. I know her quite well in her own comic. The problem is that all the speed arguments hinge on examples where she is doing things far beyond her abilities as established by her standard and, on top of that, one other example where Black Adam is suddenly performing well below his established standard. This is a guy who is fast enough to trade blows with Superman and with Superboy/man-Prime and is gifted with the speed of a god of speed but let's use one example where he's jobbing for Jay Garrick (I believe someone even mentioned there were some extenuating circumstances even then that were conveniently not mentioned). That would be as bad as if I invoked World War III. I haven't invoked it because its as ridiculous as the examples that are being used to argue that WW would win. Its way outside the standard.
I'll play the game just to show it isn't an irrefutable argument. In fact, I already did once. You are arguing that she can fight at maximum effectiveness while he must fight stupidly. In a sense, you are invoking WWIII when he's in a berserk rage. Your scenario also requires that she catches him by total surprise and that he doesn't even know what her tiara can do. All he has to do is not throw an all-out punch but just grapple. She has no room to throw or strike with force and you have not proven that she can slice his hands off. Yeah he'll get cut but it would be worth it if he grapples her.
And that's if he doesn't just say, "Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! Shazam! etc." (or whatever his word may change to) and start raining lightning bolts at her if we want to go with unorthodox tactics that he has been shown to use at least once. We have seen he can summon and direct the lighting at somebody without changing to Teth. So he sends it at her or at the tiara. Now, magic or not, a metal object is not a smart thing to block lightning with. So he keeps her dancing around dodging until she finally agrees to drop the tiara if he'll stop the lightning. Then they finally start fighting and he kayoes her.
Right now, all this amounts to is that she loses. So someone says, "But if instead she had done such and such..." Okay and she still loses or he uses a similar tactic that stalemates them and eventually the results are the same. Then someone says, "But but but but if instead she did this. See if she could just do one more thing..."
The rigid fingers strike to the throat and all of it is part of her martial training and all but against someone with his level of invulnerability its silly to make it sound as if its a victory move. Plus we go back to the fact that it hinges on a speed advantage she doesn't have.
I feel that what I'm doing is going with an impression or feeling of what Wonder Woman's power levels are in general (standard showings) and same with BA. Most of the counters are extremely high showings for her and extremely low for him which may prolong an argument but don't really prove much. The overwhelming and accurate consensus (almost unanimous but for two people) is that BA takes 8 or 9 out of 10. Your tiara argument could account for that figure based on the assumption it might have a chance to work if she got lucky.
And sorry but that final comment, that it should have been BA vs. WW without her magic devices to make a real fight, please. She has zero chance of winning without those devices, absolute zero or at least as much chance as I have of beating Muhammad Ali in his prime in a boxing match which is so close to zero it might as well be. [/QUOTEI must correct you one a few things. Lighting isn't going to do jack to Diana. She's blocked Necron's black lightning. She's with stood Zues's bolts. Now, you talk about Diana's average showings. Please enlighten us, what are her "average" showings? Since you know, she's the emmissarry of Peace and Prefers Not to operate at full capacity.
A general impression of her standard showings vs. BA's standard showings as opposed to her highest showings and his lowest. Enlightened yet or you'll never feel enlightened until the entire board agrees with you?
KMC Community Forums
Jan 6th, 2008 10:30 PM
