oh and on my website dante lost agianst negi becuase negi's shields were able to withstand a mounting bustin attack and dante just can't produce that type of force.
He replied
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"Second. The scene with Vergil and the Abyss enemies. So, we already know, according to all possible sense, that it's not Mach 11 or anywhere close. But I like precision! Or being as close to it as one can get. And my original estimate of the scene was just that, an estimate – I did the same thing the people coming up with stupidly-large numbers were doing, just in the opposite direction (specifically, I assumed the weapons would take .02 seconds to reach Vergil by the time he moved, without having anything solid to base that on).
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Going over the scene again, I paused and looked closer at how far the scythes are from Vergil when he starts to move. While it's impossible to get an exact number, thanks to camera angles, it's fairly safe to say that Vergil begins his motion when most of the blades are about a foot from him.
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Again, assuming peak human capability, that's about 100mph. _Or 147 feet per second (100 X 5280 = 528000 divided by 60 = 8800 divided by 60 = 146.6 infinite recursion)
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So, if the weapons are moving at 147 feet per second, and Vergil doesn't react until each blade is a foot from him, that means he has .007 seconds to make, at least, the three parries we see in the scene before his draw-cut. 7 thousandths of a second.
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Of course, we also need to know how far he moves to know how fast he's moving. Here, again, we unfortunately have to estimate. Vergil comes in, like his brother, at about 6'2”. Though his torso and head would account for a bit less than half his height, his first motion moves his sword from below his waist to his head. So we can safely round off to three feet for the very first parry (If someone wants to get a more exact number, by all means PLEASE do so. I don't have ready access to the height chart right now).
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Vergil swings his arm back once, then forward, then back again. Unfortunately I cannot tell whether or not he turns his body during this time (the soon-to-be-corpses are in the way), but given the placement of the enemies it is possible he does not, so that's the measurement I'll be going with. This means three feet for the first parry, three feet again for the second, and three feet a last time for the third. 9 feet of arm movement in .007 seconds. This is inaccurate, but just for fun, let's assume the draw-cut was executed within the same span of time, which brings us up to 15 feet of movement (tacking on another 6) in that span of time.
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So, 15/ .007, Fifteen divided by seven thousandths of a second. 2142 feet per second, 12,8571 feet per minute, 7,714,285 feet per hour. Divided by 5280, _1461 miles per hour. Mach 2, almost precisely.
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And that's WITH the extra 6 feet of movement for the draw-cut added in. There's actually a gap between those first motions and when he executes that move that means that wouldn't be valid, but I'm including it to make a point.
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@Chuck
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The problem with your math, now that you take the time to do it out, is that you still can't just assume how fast things in the scene are moving. We could assume Vergil is moving at any speed we want, and go from there, but that's not valid. Also, provided the “m” in your “m/s” is meters, I'm still getting different numbers than you (in this case, higher) when converting to feet.
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But as I said, it's invalid anyway. We don't get to just assume “Vergil's moving this speed because it looks like a human of a certain fitness level does this.” It's faulty math, and while it might be viable in a situation where there are no other measures, such measures exist here, giving us a nearly exact (albeit minimum) speed he'd HAVE to move to execute what he does in the scene. Even working off of estimated distances, that's more accurate.
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Also, a swing backward with an arm is a completely different motion from a punch, and depending on the type of punch you mean (straight, cross, jab?) is much slower. Vergil makes only one motion that could be considered “punch-like” in the entire sequence (the second parry), with every other motion being not only distinctly different, but taking significantly longer than a punch would. So that argument is doubly invalid. Triply if one factors in his holding an odachi that should weigh in the area of 4 pounds at least, and taking more time than an average human moving as fast as possible would to execute the same motion.
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And that's the only part of the sequence where Vergil is shown moving appreciably faster than the Abyss' while they are in slow-motion. All other times Vergil's movements are slowed down as well, which rather handily negates any such argument about speed from those parts of the fight.
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Unless, say, King Leonidas of the mighty Spartan 300 is also a hypersonic character. Now, the tower scene.
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This one is weirder, as we both concur the tower cannot possibly be as tall as it would need to be in order to accommodate ANY of the possible speeds. But there is a very simple point to be made here.
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While we have evidence that Dante can increase the *power* of his bullets, we have no definitive evidence he can increase their *speed*. This is important because the fastest an .45 ACP round can travel is 2300 feet per second. Or _1568 miles per hour.
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Why is this relevant? Well, because it means that 1568 mph is the most speed the bullet could add, on its own, to the speed Rebellion was moving at. Of course that's only if Dante was stationary when firing the gun: we know obviously that he was moving. And Dante's motion would add to the speed of the bullet, of course.
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But therein lies the problem. If friction burn starts at Mach 6, then Dante has to be moving at, at MOST, 4296 miles per hour, just beneath it. 4296+1568 is 5865.2. Mach 8, well beneath the threshold you're talking about for the scene of 7162 miles per hour. And the bullet can only add speed that the sword doesn't already have.
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Which means if Rebellion was stationary, it would have to be shot at around 7162 miles per hour to hit Mach 10. But Rebellion is MOVING in the scene. So if Dante is bound to 4296 miles per hour, and the maximum the bullet can be traveling is 5865.2, then Rebellion would have to be moving at 1297 miles per hour before Dante shoots it. Now, while the scene is obviously slowed down by an indeterminate amount, it seems patently unlikely Dante accelerates to over 3 times the speed of the sword AFTER throwing it, but BEFORE shooting it without catching up to it first (especially since, even though the visuals in the scene are suspect, we clearly see there is a significant distance between Dante and the sword).
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And that's the MOST likely scenario. The other one is that the sword is traveling at a faster speed, perhaps only below the 7162 mph threshold by the speed of the bullet. But that's 5594 miles per hour. If Dante's moving below Mach 6, and he shoots it then, the most speed the bullet can add is 91 miles per hour. Relativity and all. So that variant is completely impossible.
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Of course, that leaves the final option for a fixed bullet speed, that Dante is moving at a speed equivalent to the sword when he shoots it, meaning the bullet is free to add exactly its speed to the blade. But for that to be possible, the sword and Dante have to be zipping along at 5594 miles per hour. Which is about Mach 7. So unless an object with a surface area about 1.8 meters high and .6 meters wide can move at mach 7 without triggering friction burn, no, not so much.
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Unless of course Dante can accelerate the speed of his bullets (which we have no definitive evidence for). In which case, even assuming Rebellion was moving at just a single mile per hour beneath Mach 10 and Dante was moving at the same under Mach 6, Dante would have to be able to supernaturally add another 1477 miles per hour to the speed of his bullets to make the scene the speed you say it is.
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So either Dante has to be able to accelerate to 3 times the speed of his own thrown weapon before shooting it, but somehow not catch up with it first, then another 1.6 times to catch up with the blade at all, or he has to be moving at well over the speed friction burn starts. Or he has to be able to add nearly 1500 miles per hour to the speed of his bullets.
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Given the entirety of the franchise has no examples of either of the twins being that fast (including, as I pointed out above, the scene with Vergil), And we have no definitive evidence Dante can increase the speed of the bullets his guns fire, I'm rather inclined to say no, the scene is not happening at that speed."
His whole reply, while I commend his effort, unnecessary to a point where he 's missing and can be countered by a simple point; the speed in the scene itself disagrees with his figures. In other words his figures do not match the time dilation. Here's why:
He said that Vergil is Ma2 and the Abyss are at 45m/s. According to him Vergil is moving 15x faster than them. Therefore he was 15x faster than them in that scene.
Problem. He wasn't; If the Abyss are really moving at 45m/s and in that scene it takes them 14 seconds to cover 1.5m, they appear to be moving at 0.107m/s. If Vergil was 15x faster, in that scene he would appear to be moving at 1.6m/s. And as I said, he wasn't. Even by the speed he himself gave Vergil, which is wrong, he would be appearing to be 37x faster than the Abyss. Basically, his own method contradicts itself. For this calc to be right the figures must be equal to the actual scene.
First mistake is Vergil's appeared speed that he got 4m/s for [15 ft in slightly over a second]. That's half the speed of an unfit humans punch.. Me assuming that Vergil's attacking as fast as an average human is far safer than you suggesting he looked as fast as a child with a broken arm. Your problem comes from the fact that you used his whole movement to get his speed, which includes each time he pauses to change direction. Highly faulty.
As you really want concrete figures, here ya go:
His second movement has his arm going from his side, to making a hook-like attack while turning around and putting his hand back at his side. For someone of his size (my size) that's a 2.5m movement that his hand travels. Now I went ahead and got this scene down frame-by-frame [30fps. 1 frame = 0.0333 seconds] and it takes 7 frames for him to do this movement, that's 0.233 seconds.
2.5m / 0.233s = 10.73m/s.
For accuracy I got the speed for a single frame, which is him moving the length of his elbow to hand which is around 40cm.
0.4m/ 0.0333s = 12m/s
So Vergil's appeared speed in that scene is at least 10m/s.
This is what we now know about the time dilation in this scene:
1. The Abyss were moving at 0.107m/s
2. Vergil was moving at 10m/s
Meaning that Vergil was moving 93.458x faster than the Abyss in that scene. So if Vergil is moving that much faster than the Abyss, and the Abyss move at 45m/s, how fast is Vergil?
And unlike his method, my one is explicitly supported by the speed we get from the actual scene.
Oh, and that King Leonidas point was a very.. very poor comparison as he's moving at the same slow-mo speed as everyone else.
First of all, "6. Kinda obvious the scene wasnt in real time" Did you even read this? The thing you agreed to? Not being in real time means calcing from the Tower's height can't be done, not that it can't be done at all...
And he's wrong about his bullet speed. His bullets are faster than Nero's Blue Rose, given how he can shoot his bullets out of mid-air, which is based on a upgraded S&W M500. M500 can be at 630m/s. Nero's is likely about that, with Dante's being above that.
And again, while I commend on his effort here, its all countered by a simple point. At that simple point is this; "Dante can increase the *power* of his bullets."
Relevance of this? Take baseball. Peak human arm movement speed 16m/s, that from a pro boxer so you know no other human can compete in arm speed without a bat. So a pitcher throws the ball at his peak arm speed, yet the ball is moving at 40m/s. Thats because of the kinetic energy the pitcher transfers into the ball when throwing it.
And that's the important factor. If Dante can increase the power by adding energy, the kinetic energy of the bullets can launch the sword to great speeds.
Dante's shots are at 8,500 Joules at base from their speed, but what can it be if Dante chooses? Well in DMC4 he was able to destroy two high-ranking demons with a single shot. But for a more solid numbers theres the feat from DMC2. With two shots Dante knocked Arius into a wall where 20 tons of the rock [measured from Arius' height] wall was knocked back at around 10m/s [again from Arius' height]. Dante can increase the force of his bullets by a large degree. His bullet can easily have a massive knockback.
You believe that his /normal/ bullet can knock the sword at a fast pace, how fast do you think a /demon powered/ shot could make it go?
Also: "Rebellion length = 1.65m
Rebellion width= 0.38m
[Based on its height to Dante, guard from the sword length]
During the scene Rebellion appeared to be moving at 2.357m/s
[Based on the tower below covering the swords length in 0.7seconds, 1.65m / 0.7s]
When the sword appears stationary Dante is moving at 1.52m/s
[Based on Dante's movement. Covered 3.04m, 8 handle widths, in 2s]
..Making Dante's apparent speed at 3.877m/s
[Dante moves 1.52m/s faster that the the 2.357m/s sword]
Meaning Dante was moving 1.645x Rebellion's speed when catching up to it."
Posting again because I don't think he read or grasped this. Proves that Dante was running over 1.5x Rebellion's speed, and Rebellion was already at Mach 7.
And like I already said, its the min speed without considering aerodynamics.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
@Blood rain
In the anime dante was fighting against a demon who's at-least supersonic(watch beginning of ep to see his speed feat) and while they were fighting he couldn't register dante's attack in one scene. here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSn...ailpage#t=1046s
Ah yes, good catch. Good characters those demon brothers.
"more proof that the savioe is harder than marble/stone"
This would make the strength feat from both Dante and Nero a good deal higher than what they already are. However the only way to do this would be to use their strength feat as its durability, then use that to find how strong they are... Circular reasoning fallacy.
Though I could probably do it with the Savior punching through stone.. will get back to this.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
This is what a guy said about the alastor scene
"First, that is still slower than lightning. Second, that would be the tip of his sword moving at those speeds. Third, time was not slowed down nearly that much, look at the near 1:20 mark. You see shattered glass fall much more than at least a few centimeters in 2-3 seconds. It appears that time was slowed down by a degree of 1000, this would make his sword swings be 5 km/s not 60 km/s. If you are talking about the rest of the glass, then you can’t really put an exact figure on how far it has fallen in the slowed down time. You do not actually see it fall, nor can you judge it by where it is compared to Dante because he was in two different postures at the beginning and end. The lowest piece that can be seen at the beginning of the time slow is at his mid thigh, there is glass at mid calf when the times slow ends."
Mach 15, and Jester is certainly a fast bugger, but as he himself states later on either of the twins could easily defeat him if they wanted. I guess that would mean that Dante not being serious is why Jester was moving like he was.
Wrong. Its clear from the speed the glass falls that the scene with the lightning wasnt slowed down as much as when he starts swinging.
No the tip would be even faster. At his fastest slash he moves his hands 3m in 0.5s, thats 6m/s. The tip on the other hand giving its length would be moving at around 18m/s.
In the HD remastered version there are no shards moving besides small flakes from Dante's slashes.
You actually can measure how fast it was falling: At the beginning of the slow-mo you can see a large shard to the left of the screen that is about 1m off the ground, 1m taken from Dante's height when you stand by that point, which is on the half-way point of that black bar on the wall. 12 seconds later at the end of the effect we see that the shard has moved down past the half-way point by a small amount. Using a ruler I measure the whole height to me 20cm with the distance it moved to be 0.1cm.
That's 1/200th its total height of 1m, thus the shard moved 5mm in those 12 seconds
= 0.005 meters / 12 seconds
= 0.000416666667 m/s
I believe the glass was naturally falling at 10m/s? (Real falling speed / Slow-mo falling speed) * Slow-mo movement speed = Real movement speed
(10/ 0.000416666667)*6
= 144,000 m/s
= 144 km/s
Low-end lightning speed is 60km/s, average is 150km/s and high-end is 2,250km/s. Dante's speed registers a hair below average lightning speed. So even if there is a small error in the calc it will still prove that the in-game description of "Gives the possessor lightning speed and aerial capabilities." holds true to its words, and that Dante with Alastor moves at lightning speed.
Which would equal Nelo Angelo's speed, with that being below Sparda and DDT mode.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
A guy responded an said
"Frankly, I couldn’t find the glass piece you were talking about, none of the pieces during the effect end look like the ones at the beginning, thank to Mr Devil Hunter slashing them up and the camera spinning all over the place.
However, Isn’t there a disparity between the falling speed of the chips resulted caused by Dante slashed and the original shard?
It cannot be explained as they receiving speed from Dante’s slashes either, since there are those that were falling almost straight downward even though Dante was swinging side-way. Then There’s still the problem of Dante getting hit by cloud-to-ground lightning during his pride of the lion quest, and couldn’t jump to safety in time.
So even if the very tip of his sword was fast, his movement speed is still quite low.
A few pieces are still there. And no. If he was swinging around himself, like he was, any shard that connects would be flung in whichever direction and angle the blade hit it. Feel free to track each shard to the exact blade angle if you'd like.
Getting struck by lightning from above /without ever looking at the bolt/ means nothing against his speed in the same way that someone punching your back doesn't mean you're slower than a human.
Literally have no idea why you're talking about the tip of the sword again.
What interests me is that besides the bio /stating/ that it gives him lightning speed with the cutscene either proving it or massively hinting to it, its still argued against. For instance; you thinking its 5km/s, when DMC3 Dante prior to unlocking DT was at least 5km/s. Now does it make any logical sense that a 10 years advanced, unlocked Dante with a weapon that gives him a large boosts in speed would put him at the same speed as he was in hie weaker years?
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Except the smaller shards weren’t flying in the direction he slashed, a few at the end was falling almost straight down.
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Because speed of sword tip =/= speed of his own body and his movement speed
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Getting struck by lightning from above mean he does not have lightning speed reaction or has lightning speed reaction
but not the speed to dodge it.
It’s not like a bolt of lightning doesn’t give off obvious signs like light and heat.
His inability to jump to safety before the bridge’s ground collapse also means his movement speed is not exactly spectacular.
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There are a lot of instance where game and fiction used “lightning fast” speed to describe speed much slower than lightning, and the cutscene has disparity in speed between larger and smaller shards. It doesn’t help that there are no other cut scene, fight scene or in-game animation supporting lightning speed.
Aside from that, there are several other thing need ironing out:
1. Does it boost his speed permanently or in short burst?
2. Does it boost his reaction speed?
3. Does it boost his movement speed?
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1. I did not say anything about 5km/s or staying the same as DMC3 Dante.
2. You can say he is definitely faster than his old self, but the difference between 5km/s and 144km/s are still very large.
Heck, lightning speed is leap and bounce above what his other DAs have to offer in term of speed, and thus should have rendered most of them obsolete. It doesn’t matter if other DA can deal 900 damage in one hit if Alastor can deal 1000 1-damage slashes in the same amount of time.
So it’s not big surprise people will be skeptic toward the lightning speed claim.
Without knowing which slash did it or at what angle, the point holds no water.
Yes, around 3x the speed at 18m/s. What has that got the 6m/s hand speed that I'm using?
Can you dodge a tennis ball being dropped down to you without you looking at it? The heat comes after, and if Dante could react to the light before the lightning, that would give him relativistic reactions.... Why would he need to jump to safety when he was directed to go the the abyss?
Show me one instance where something is said to move at lightning speed and then goes out of its way to have a cutscene showing/attempting to show lightning-like speed.
1. Cutscene shows as long as in use, nothing says otherwise.
2. Yes or he couldn't control it.
3. Yes or he wouldn't be moving around in that manner.
1. "this would make his sword swings be 5 km/s not 60 km/s." That this amped scene is as fast as a weaker Dante.
2. 29x faster, yes. And its not that large a jump: The main Knights or the order went from 15m/s to 1,700m/s with some devil energy. 113x faster. Arkham went from 15m/s to 1,000m/s with a little devil energy, then from that to 5,000 when amped. 67x then 5x, overall 333x faster. How about strength? DMC4's Savior level Dante is /400,000/ times stronger than human-sized statue busting DMC3 Dante. 113x and 333x instant speed boost, with a 400,000x strength boost over those 10 years. What so large about 29x when characters raise up far past that?
No other weapon in DMC offers speed besides Beowulfs strength and speed boost, which focuses more on strength. And a poor argument. Why would Dante use Beowulf when Ifrit is the same with hellfire? Why would Dante use any other weapon when Sparda gives the highest strength and speed boost? Why would Dante use guns.. at all?
In DMC1 canon Dante only uses Alastor until its replaced with the overall superior Sparda blade. So there's lit nothing to be skeptical about.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
If there are an unquantifiable variable, the whole scene cannot be used to cal’ed.
Consider how non of the slash should have caused almost straight falling pattern, the straight falling one was the one fragmented from the larger shard when they were slashed, but did not receiving the sword motion power,
Yet they fell as fast as the other smaller fragments when the larger shard stayed in the air.
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1. Alastor has a danger-sensing ability, I don’t.
2. Tennis ball don’t emit obvious sign like light and heat.
3. Depend on the distance, I probably cannot move out of the way if I knew it was there.
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wrong, nobody asked him to dodge the light, I’m talking about seeing the light the bolt emits and jump out of the way. That does not require relativistic reaction. It just require him to have lightning timing reaction
Most lightning timer had to dodge or block sky-to-ground lightning after it was “fired” without warning or reliably tag confirmed lightning speed character to be recognized. Knowing the lightning will strike you beforehand and dodge tend to be dismissed as aim-dodging.
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The instruction was to come back the way he came and he’ll pass the trial, not “You must plummet into the water under the bridge”
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1. Cut scene show the effect only started when he swing, and stopped the moment he stopped swinging, not as long as in-use.
2. Proof it give lightning reaction?
The cut scene did not show him reacting to anything, Pride of the Lion trial seem to disagree with lightning timing reaction,
3. Same as above, proof?
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I’m merely questioning the validity of the cal when there are two frames of reference, as well as debating the extend of this speed enhancement should the cal be true.
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Your comparison is screwed.
1. Even fodder demon are leap and bound above human in pure stat, of course human receiving demonic power will has a huge jump in power.
Dante already started with demon power, and never received such a boost until he get Sparda. And even Sparda DA has no lightning speed feat.
Hell, DMC2 Dante, who is confirmed to have surpassed the original Sparda with Majin DT has no lightning speed feat.
2. Multiplier scale is deceptive. The higher your speed is, the harder it is to get an multiplier. A person who can run at 5m/s only need to run an extra 5m in that second to get 2x speed. A person who can run at mach 3 need to cover an extra kilometer in that second to get twice the speed.
When character are into double digit mach speed, a x1.5 factor can result in speed-blitz of babyshake proportion, let alone x29.
In this particular comparison, the order knight received a 1685m/s speed boost (although I’m not sure where you got the number), while to get 144km/s, dante has to get an increase in speed of about 139000 m/s.
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Which was exactly my point:
If Alastor was lightning speed, it make everything else obsolete.
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Poor counter argument
Beowulf was obtained before Ifrit (DMC3 happened before 1) and Dante has a habit of leaving his old DA at home. Alastor and DMC1 DAs were obtained in the same trip.
And asking about using gun is not a sound argument. Jack pot charge shots have been shown to be one of Dante’s most devastating finisher against demonic opponent. It’s consistently shown as being far more powerful than its game-play counter part, and as a result, Dante actually like to use it in cut scene.
In the case of Alastor, Dante mostly make use of its danger sense in cutscene, not its speed.
Unquantifiable? It was due to that guy swinging his sword around. And most feats people calc have undefinitive things, even more if you look for them.
A diagonal slash hitting a shard at about 90°, a horizontal on hitting at 45°. Unless you happen to know if it ricocheted, was a straight cut, the angles of the shard to the blade.. then theres nothing left to it.
1. Sensing danger suddenly equals a flashing neon arrow pointing to the bolt? Check those sensing scenes, Dante realizes there's some form of danger around, but not from where. Oh, and you're forgetting that that bolt wasnt a danger to him, it was an aid.
2. Literally just said this. The heat comes from contact with the bolt, not before. And /light is faster than lightning/, about 2,000x faster on average. Are you suggesting Dante can react to the light before the bolt? Y'know, light-speed reactions? No, only failing to react to the bolt itself would discredit him. Unseen and from above; exactly like a dropped ball.
3. And if you didnt, like Dante didnt, it would hit you.
No what you just said requires relativistic reactions and lightning speed. You're saying Dante should react to the light then dodge the bolt. And what light are you talking about? The light from the initial flash or from the bolt itself? Because if the former, there was no visible flash. If the latter, the light comes from the return strike ie after the bolt makes contact with the ground. Neither flash was present, so what are you talking about?
Yeah all those characters are looking at the bolt during its travel, Dante had no visible aid whatsoever.
"Go back the path and thou shall return from the abyss(...)" More to the point, are you now trying to say that Dante's speed is below the 10m/s speed needed to get to the end? That Dante's speed is on the level of peak human? This argument falls on the same level as 'Lady shot Dante in the head, so he can't even dodge a bullet.' If you're now to believe the guys speed is at a human limit, I don't think theres a point in debating this.
1. ..so basically when he's using it aka when in-use?
2. "or he couldn't control it." It showed him doing precise, controlled movements (control = reacting on par) not blind, wild swings (not having the reactions).
3. ..Watch the scene?
Yes, and thus saying a more powerful, unlocked, speed amped Dante1 is as fast as the weak, locked, base Dante3. Does this makes any sense?
1. Fodder demons are 30x human speed, while Arkham had a tenfold higher boost. And with a tiny demon boost, not the massive leap Dante goes through from 3 to 4.
Simple logic and powerscaling; Nelo Anglo fought evenly with an Alastor powered Dante, SpardaDT and Mundas are both above that. Unless you want to believe that Alastor and Nelo can blitz Sparda and Mundas..?
First; You said 'with Majin DT' even though he's never used Majin in a cutscene. Second; DMC2 was a largely featless game by itself. Third; Argosax by powerscaling was at least on the level of Mundas, that and Sparda needed the help of a group of human/demon priests and hunters with 4 sacred relics in order to beat it. Base Dante2 proceeded to effortlessly defeat and blitz Argosax.
2. You mean like the multiplier of his strength going from Wall level to Multi-block level? Or his blade/sharp edge durability only being at a Human level at base then jumping to Multi-block blade resistance by activating DT? Strength increases by 400,000x in the same 10 years, blade resistance/durability increases by /10,000,000x/ in DT. Now factor in your idea of higher figures of speed being harder to increase compared to his strength and durability. No matter what you consider, 29x wont come close to the other stats.
And the way you're saying that would be the same as saying that going from 5m/s to 10m/s is the same as going from 59,995m/s to 60,000m/s, just because its the same distance increase. Even though one is doubled and the other barely increases. Its not the same.
Actually I think you missed the point. There are only two other weapons in DMC1 that Alastor can render obsolete with its speed; Ifrit and Force edge/Sparda. Ifrit gives him a boost in strength and power over hellfire, heat that can destroy enemies that can bathe in magma. But does Dante canonly use it in cutscenes? No. He only uses Alastor. Outright shown with Force Edge; As soon as Dante gets Alastor he canonly replaces his normal blade for it. It isnt until he creates the Sparda blade that he replaces Alastor, seeing as Sparda is stronger and faster than it. So yes, there is an obsolete rule; Sparda's strength and speed > Alastor's speed > Ifrit's strength and Force Edge.
Never canonly favoured Ifrit and replaced Alastor for a stronger, faster weapon. Point?
Yes, the one technique that he's used four times. Now why does he use guns in general? Supersonic speed when he can move much faster, their Wall level destruction when he can trump that by leagues without even trying. His unarmed body makes his hand guns, shotgun, sub-machine guns and even his rocker launchers obsolete, right? So why would he use guns in general?
Even if your obsolete theory made sense here, which the above discredits, it still has nothing to do with Dante seeing as he canonly uses the fastest weapon he has with him; Force Edge -> Alastor -> Sparda.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Usually the unquantifiable factor of those cal wasn’t another frame of reference (in this case, shards falling faster than other shards), or they were not valid, but nobody noticed the discrepancy to call them out.
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No, but he know something is out there, and can at least move out of that spot. You don’t stay in one place if you know there is danger.
And the bolt destroyed a stone bridge. Pretty sure it was more like “If you cannot survive this, you may as well die” instead of an aid.
It was a demonic trial, after all.
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I said I did not say he should react to light. That was the first thing I said, not sure how you could miss it.
I’m saying he should see the light and react to the bolt.
You know, see, as in, the light hit his eyes, he know there’s something and just jump out of the way.
I did not need lightspeed reaction to see that there is a bright light, and Dante sure as hell does not need light speed reaction for that.
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The light from the plasma of the bolt.
It’s not like it was a small bolt.
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I don’t like how you are shoving words into my mouth, I’m saying if Dante has lightning movement speed, he should be able to jump to safety when the bridge broke apart instead of falling below.
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No, in-use imply all he has to do is hold it. the slow down effect didn’t kick in when he was holding it and the lightning strike, nor was it in effect when he played with it then put it on his back.
Also, when he used it, he did not move, so we don’t know whether it boosted his movement speed.
All of these deductions are in line with his performance in other cut scenes.
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Not only his hands, which is what he actually controlled move at only 1/3 the speed of the tip (and as I said, in such high speed bracket, 3x multiplier is a great difference), it was assisted by muscle memory.
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He did not move in that scene, his arm was only at 1/3 the speed of the sword tip, and unlike arm-weapon tip, leg-movement transition reduce the speed instead of increasing.
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And since when did I say dmc3 in my post?
Are you mistaking me for someone else, or is putting words in my mouth your new hobby?
Disproving him of having lightning speed =/= saying he’s the same as DMC3 Dante.
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Again, you are trying to use multiply scaling, which is deceptive.
By using a lesser starting point, you get a larger multiplier even though the increased amount is miniscule compare to a fractional increase for character with high base stat.
For comparison between multiplier and actual number:
- A person going from normal (around 12.42 m/s) to transonic (mach 0.8 -274m/s) running speed get a 22x multiplier while gaining only 261.58m/s in running speed
- A superhuman who go from mach 2 (about 685m/s) to mach 9 (about 3082m/s) only get a 4.5x multiplier, but gained 2397m/s in speed.
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Dante started out as a half-demon with massive demonic power, so his base is much higher than human, expecting the same multiplier from him is illogicaL
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This could actually be used to argue against lightning speed Alastor.
You can only power scale Nelo after you established the validity of the cal.
Or Alastor could be too weak to damage Mundus (one of the reason blitzing can fail).
Or Alastor only give speed boost in attacking speed, not reaction or movement (again, nothing in the Alastor scene suggest anything other than attack speed boost. Assuming it does is speculation at best).
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And your point is?
Sparda’s power was limited after he seal away the demon world and DMC2 Dante is the strongest Dante sans equipment.
And Sparda unable to beat Argosax could be a problem from his durability or destructive power.
Dante blitzing him is not a proof of lightning speed.
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DT =/= growth rate, it’s a transformation, and even DT does not show any sign of increase that much in term of speed.
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Also, where did you get the number of 400000x and 10 million? Source?
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Taking into account the potential of a character, a 5m/s increase is not the same for two character.
However, even if the 60000m/s get a 30000 m/s increase at the same time the 5m/s character get a 5m/s increase, the multiplier is still favor the 5m/s character (1.5 vs 2), despite the 60000m/s character will always massively out-pace the 5m/s if they keep the same rate of growth (we are talking about 6000x difference in growth rate).
See the point of a low starter vs stronger character in term of multiplier?
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The multiplier will also get lower as time goes by (although a bit less skewered) if you assume two character has exactly the same level of potential/growth (or compare a character with his younger version)
Let give Dante’s growth an arbitrary factor of 5 every year, assume 20 years old Date has a power factor of 5.
Ignoring outside factor like Saparda power influx:
20-21 years old Dante get a 2x multiplier
30-31 years old Dante get a 1.0909 multiplier
Despite his growth stay the same, the multiplier keep getting smaller.
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So, comparing DMC3-DMC1 Dante to Order Knight in growth multiplier is simply illogical, especially when the Order Knight received an out-side influx of demonic power while Dante didn’t.
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Nothing imply Sparda is lightning speed. It, however, contained Sparda power and grant a more powerful DT (although we don’t know how powerful due to lack of valid feat)
Aside from that, fair point.
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Either he can jackpot charge them like E&I, or he does not have such movement speed (attacking speed =/= movement), or he use it as range-delay and range mook-killer.
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Actually yeah, the factors are sometimes larger, called out and unexplained. Unlike this one which can be easily explained with Dante's slashes.
Did he suddenly take a dive when it sparked to Nelo Angelo's approach? No. It warned him and he took a look around. And this is even if it warned him for the lightning. It didnt with Griffon, Nightmare or Nelo Angelo #2. If anything the sword knows what is it is not an immediate danger. That lightning was not a danger.
Registering sight is a reaction.. Not to mention you're assuming that Dante knew that a bolt was coming at him. Do you instantly look at the area a flash came from during a thunderstorm, each and every time there's a flash? Not that there was even a flash for him to react to.
Yeah theres hardly any light emitted from the stepped leader, not until the return stroke /after/ contact with the ground. The light from the stepped leader doesnt reach far, especially not during the daytime. Pre-contact bolts light, during the day and above him.. theres no way he could see the light or know a bolt was coming from it.
I'm merely stating what your words are saying. "If Dante has X speed, he should be able to jump 15m in 1.5 seconds." Which is the same as "Dante failed to jump at 10m/s", which would go against even his lowest speed feats. Him not jumping is nothing more than PIS. The same reason at the start of the game Dante runs the the front door when Trish simply jumps over the walls.
Technically the first slow-down happened during the lightning strike, notice the slower than normal glass. Then theres that large pause he took at the end. The timelag was present and all he was doing was holding it. Besides his legs actually moving, the bio says its grants him speed. If it doesn't specify that only his strikes become faster, theres nothing to it.
Y'know if I input the tips speed into the calc it comes out at 432km/s, right? Do you have anything to suggest that Dante used muscle memory of something he's never done before and not normal reactions?
Why are you bringing up the tip? We both know how swing arcs work, it has nothing to do with the calc or Dante's own speed. Even in his slash stances, where the focus is on his arms, his legs are moving half as fast has his arms.
Again Im simply stating what your words would mean.
If you're saying that a speed amped DMC1 Dante is moving at 5km/s, then you're saying that he's is as fast as base DMC3 Dante. The latter is obviously false, so the former cannot be true.
So using a multiplication scale, the same thing that tells us how many times faster or stronger one character is to another, is more deceptive than addition?
Yes yes I already know the explanation, but its irrelevant as for a human to gain those extra meters, their body would need to cover the multiplication in order to get there. Growth is in multiplications.
Not really.
Yup, basic powerscaling.
I wasnt asking of the effectiveness of Alastor against Mundas, I was asking if you think Mundas, the demon second only to Sparda, can be blitzed with it.
No basis.
Even with Sparda's power limited, Argosax is still on the level of Mundas. Powerscaling says he would have the same speed, speed Dante blitzed.
DT's physical increase is the same as what Alastor does to him. Both have Dante tapping into demonic power. Heres where I point to those human-leveled characters becoming far faster in their devil forms. Theres also gameplay and higher DT forms being > Alastor. Not that I even mentioned DT as a speed boost in this example, nor is the point of this example about what it is but its increase compared to Alastor's.
So you admit that a the increase from 5-10m/s is greater than from 59,995-60,000m/s?
Yes, by potential growth the one with the high multiplication increased by the most.
And not really, no. The original point was that 144km/s is larger than 5km/s when its a with a powerful demonic weapon, where the growth of characters with minimal devil energy boosts are also extreme.
Dante3's strikes at 1e5 Newtons from busting a 2m statue. Dante4's strength is at 4e10 Newtons from the Savior feats. 400,000x stronger, or 39,999,900,000 Newtons stronger if you dont want to use the multiplication, in 10 years.
Any human bodied character can be stabbed by human strength which is around 2e3-5e3 Newtons. DT can tank a stab from Savior-busting strength, 4e10 N. 10,000,000x the durability, or he can take 39,999,996,000 more newtons, from using demonic power.
So to sum up we the increases, we have; Alastor- 29x faster. 10 years- 400,000x stronger. DT- 10,000,000x more durable.
Or if you don't want multiplications; Alastor- 139,000m/s faster. 10 years- 39,999,900,000 Newtons stronger. DT- 39,999,996,000 Newtons more durable.
Does Alastor still seem like a huge increase to you? And note that 29x is from his lowballed speed and doesn't take into account him getting faster in those 10 years.
Besides the obvious powerscaling of Mundas & Sparda > Nelo & Alastor.
If he can, he never has nor has he done so in the cutscenes where he uses the a gun normally. Tower dive proves he can run at his attack speed. Doesnt need range or rapidity if he can move faster than the bullets or the many other things he can use. We've past this topic, weapon choice doesn't mean anything.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
If the factor are larger, called out and unexplained, and can affect those cal, then those cal are invalid.
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Except he didn’t even look around, fair point.
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No, jumping off falling debris is not something you can do with human speed.
However, if he indeed have lightning reaction, he should be able to do so when the bridge broke apart.
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Wasn’t the lightning strike slow down cal’ed to be somewhere along the line of his rain slash feat?
That mean that was his usual speed in effect
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His legs were hardly moving compare to his arms and bio does not describe in detail every limit and extend of the ability.
If there are no feat supporting lightning movement speed or reaction speed, and other scene seem to be in-line with him not having lightning movement or reaction speed, then it’s better to assume Alastor does not enhance those.
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I read your cal wrong and assumed 144km/s was the tip speed. My apology.
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However, since I had to read it again, I did some calculation myself, and would like to pose the question of which slash was the 6m/s one?
- The first swing was from 1:19 (actually the it started half-way into 1:18, but I’m using his hand position by 1:19) to 1:21, his hand move from around his head, down to slightly above his waist, then to the other side of his head.
- The second swing gone from the head-height position above to his waist, lasted from early 1:21 to early 1:22, slightly less than 1 sec, but definitely not 3m.
- Third swing, so far the longest swing, start from around his head 1:23, go to his waist at 1:24, he turn until 1:25 (hand still at waist)
- Fourth swing, last from start of 1:26 to late 1:27 or early 1:28
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*Did he suddenly take a dive when it sparked to Nelo Angelo’s approach? No. It warned him and he took a look around. And this is even if it warned him for the lightning. It didnt with Griffon, Nightmare or Nelo Angelo #2. If anything the sword knows what is it is not an immediate danger. That lightning was not a danger.*
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Except he didn’t even look around, fair point.
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*I’m merely stating what your words are saying. “If Dante has X speed, he should be able to jump 15m in 1.5 seconds.” Which is the same as “Dante failed to jump at 10m/s”, which would go against even his lowest speed feats. Him not jumping is nothing more than PIS. The same reason at the start of the game Dante runs the the front door when Trish simply jumps over the walls*
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No, jumping off falling debris is not something you can do with human speed.
However, if he indeed have lightning reaction, he should be able to do so when the bridge broke apart.
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*Technically the first slow-down happened during the lightning strike, notice the slower than normal glass.
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Wasn’t the lightning strike slow down cal’ed to be somewhere along the line of his rain slash feat?
That mean that was his usual speed in effect
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*Besides his legs actually moving, the bio says its grants him speed. If it doesn’t specify that only his strikes become faster, theres nothing to it.*
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His legs were hardly moving compare to his arms and bio does not describe in detail every limit and extend of the ability.
If there are no feat supporting lightning movement speed or reaction speed, and other scene seem to be in-line with him not having lightning movement or reaction speed, then it’s better to assume Alastor does not enhance those.
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*Y’know if I input the tips speed into the calc it comes out at 432km/s, right?
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I read your cal wrong and assumed 144km/s was the tip speed.
My apology.
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—
However, since I had to read it again, I did some calculation myself, and would like to pose the question of which slash was the 6m/s one?
- The first swing was from 1:19 (actually the it started half-way into 1:18, but I’m using his hand position by 1:19) to 1:21, his hand move from around his head, down to slightly above his waist, then to the other side of his head.
- The second swing gone from the head-height position above to his waist, lasted from early 1:21 to early 1:22, slightly less than 1 sec, but definitely not 3m.
- Third swing, so far the longest swing, start from around his head 1:23, go to his waist at 1:24, he turn until 1:25 (hand still at waist)
- Fourth swing, last from start of 1:26 to late 1:27 or early 1:28
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Note sure if this is canon: www.capcom-fc.com/devil4column/lib/...20080229_5l.jpg
But from the chart, Dante is still shorter than the 2m mark.
Assuming he is 1.9 m (that’s generous, calculation using PS say he’s 1.875) and has a hand length of around half his height: 0.95 m (that’s frigging long hand btw, it’s usually shorter. Credo, higher than Dante, has a 0.843 m-0.85m arm length pixel scaling from the chart).
To get any where near the 3m figure, he would need to move his hand from above head height to well behind his other side’s waist, with his arm straight the whole time (a person with 0.955m arm length, 0.05m longer than the generous figure I gave Dante, need to move his hand a full half circle). The only time he move remotely close to the over head – behind waist criteria is the third swings plus his body turning, and even then his hands were bowed, not straight. The swing + turning also last over2, almost 3 seconds.
After so many generous number, the 3m figure you gave is still not there, and certainly not in half a second.
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Screen shooting 1:14 and scaling using pixel, Alastor has about the same length as Dante’s arm (from lower arm guard, where Dante place his hand when he actually swing it, to the sword tip), so the extra length only get it to x2 at tip of the sword.
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The actual figure is less than 3m hand movement, in roughly 2-3 seconds, or around half that (or less, consider most of the other swings were perform with mostly his forearm moving, which is only about 2/3 his arm) in roughly 1 sec.
factor in Alastor length, the figure is less than 3m in 1 sec, or around half that in half a sec.
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Now, you gave the figure of 12 second from start to end of effect, however, by rapidly clicking pause, I find the extreme slow effect does not kick in until the very end of 1:19, almost the start of 1:20, then end at around half 1:30
So it’s 10.5 to 11 seconds.
3/2 * (10/(0.005/11)) = 33000 (m/s)
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After all those inflated length figure (0.955m arm), inflated swing length (assuming half circle despite his arms were bowed and used mostly forearm), inflated time of swing (using only 2 sec when it was more than that), his arm speed is only 33km/s and his sword tip about 66km/s.
I could have eye ball the thing and said since none of the swing was longer than Dante’s height (less than 2m, around 1.875), he has less than 22km/s hand speed and 44km/s sword tip.
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So, can I say, inflated calculation?
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And using muscle memory is a given if you want something done in time for combat. Consciously control your movement make even the best athletic fail at performing the simpler tasks. You only consciously decide to do something, your body do the rest from what it remember, hence the need for training.
The proof of lightning speed reaction would be changing your movement mid-way. As in, instead of making a full swing, then do another swing, he do like half a swing and switch to another.
Although from the above calculation check, even if he can do that, it’s not lightning speed.
Yet widely accepted by top and reliable debtors. More important is that this lil mystery can be easily explained.
Lets see... 15m distance of 4 or 5 platforms with 1.5s to do so.. about 2x peak human speed should cover that. Yes if he had lightning reactions he would have done so. And if he had Mach 15 reactions too. Or Mach 10 reactions, or Mach 5, or 1... Its PIS.
Alastor is 144km/s, the rain scene is 5km/s. (Although a remastered calc can prove to be somewhat faster) Far from his normal speed.
Yes, they wernt moving as much, about half as much. And no, it does not. It states speed and nothing more.
Likewise for the opposite. The bio states it, the calc proves its or proves the suggestion and there are no scenes against lightning speed. In every other characters feats, besides the exceptions that actually state against it, the characters speed reactions would match their speed.
So my calc is [(10/(0.005/12))*6], and your calc is [(10/(0.005/11))*1.5]. Besides being a second slower on total time the only real difference between ours is his shown speed? Manageable.
(Just did a rush frame count for the total time and it gets to the 360 frame mark to equal 12 seconds.)
I measured his second slash on myself (Same height as Dante) and the body-twist hand arc was in fact 3m (Should have waited until the room was clear before making slashing poses..). Note that the arc is not a perfect semi-circle, its elongated from his bodies twisting motion meaning its greater than a normal semi-circle.
The time of this arc was 15 frames of a 30fps vid = 0.5s.
3m/0.5s, 6m/s.
Just gonna say now that in no way can it be 1.5m/s. For reference; 1.5m/s is the speed of a person walking while 10m/s is the speed of an average punch. Did that scene really look like it was moving at a walking pace to you? No, even by eye you can tell that it was faster than walking speed and below average punch speed. Aka between 1.5m/s and 10m/s.. which oddly enough comes to about 6m/s as well.
So we're to assume that Alastor gives Dante's muscles the ability to act like they know how to move at that speed, and instantly? Occam's razor in full effect.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
Feb 29th, 2012 12:49 AM
Now does it make any logical sense that a 10 years advanced, unlocked Dante with a weapon that gives him a large boosts in speed would put him at the same speed as he was in hie weaker years?
