It depends, the creative teams come up with ideas for a wrestler (aswell as the storylines)but wreslters have been known to pitch their own ideas for their character or come up with their own character. Im not sure if any of their ideas were accepted but i do they at least talk and put their inputs in and sometimes they get accepted.
Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
It was always consider "honor among thieves" to not take another wrestler's act.
Case in point. The Golden Age of the WWE and WCW in the 80's (around my time as a fan) Hulk Hogan never took Ultimate Warrior's act. However, Ultimate Warrior took some of Sting's small acts. It was pretty obvious but acceptable by certain fans.
The entire Steve Austin case was a complete joke. Most wrestling fans knew the character was orchestrated by Mc Mahon. Austin started as a body guard for the Million Dollar man. Since that didn' pay off well. Mc Mahon decided to create the "bad boy" image in him. Which stunk to high heaven. You know who got suckerthe most? Not wrestling fans because wrestling fans DON'T see organizations (i.e. WWE, WCW or TNA or whatever) they just see wrestling. The people that got sucker the most were WWE fans. They saw HYPE and NOT wrestling. Because as tought and rough as Steve is...he is not a good wrestler. Never was and never will be. He's just nothing but HYPE!
Mc Mahon knew exactly that he need it to get past by the wrestling and promote the hype. That is why he created the Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold rivalry. It was despicable to see Hype win over wrestling. Because Bret was 10x the wrestler that Steve would ever be.
Again, guess who felt for the trap? Not wrestling fans...WWE fans.
Mick Foley once said "Rey Mysterio Jr. can do all the luche libre stuff in the world, he'll never get the reaction Undertaker does for just diving over the ropes.".
You know what that's called? Hype. It's the reason people watch WWE, not the olympics. Austin was nothing but hype, yes...and? You're not making a revolutionary point, here. Hype won over wrestling ability because everyone was having a great time, it was the most unified era of fandom.
Hulk Hogan was hype, he wasn't a good wrestler. There's a reason him slamming Andre stands out in peoples' minds more than Ricky Steamboat Vs Randy Savage, and that's because it's about hype. People will remember Angle's moonsault off the cage more than his olympic victory.
Even in TNA, a place chock full of great wrestlers, you don't see people jumping out of their seats in appreciation for technical grace, you see them jumping out of their seats when AJ Styles dives off something, or Rhino gores someone through a table.
Bret Hart was a great professional wrestler, but there's a reason everyone preferred Shawn Michaels, because he was exciting the crowd. Bret Hart could never have had Hell in a Cell with Taker, or Foley.
If you want wrestling, watch the olympics. Not everyone is going to have the skill of Angle or Benoit AND the ability to excite a crowd.
Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
Good! that's his perspective from a wrestler point of view. I'm giving the wrestling fan perspective. You do know that Rey Mysterio isn't the only talented wrestler from Mexico right? There are others that stayed in Mexico and much more beloved by their fans.
WRONG! People watch the WWE for many reason. Hype should be the LAST reason. Unified era of fandom? Really? You mean mainstream fandom. Good job! You got sucker by Mc Mahon. He used hype to get wrestling into the mainstream. You went along with it.
Hulk Hogan is an icon. A very likeable icon for his time. Even people who weren't wrestling fans liked the guy. That didn't worked for Steve Austin since he have to wear to his "bad boy" costume all the time.
Try watching Mexican wrestling...fans cheer death defying jump ropes.
You said it! Bret Hart is a "professional" wrestler. That is why he doesn't perform in dangerous stunts like Foley, Raven, Undertaker, Sabu, and others.
Shawn Michaels is in another different level. He used to performed in both professional and hardcore. That is what made Shawn more appealing. He couldn't be easily manipulated by Mc Mahon. Eventually his atrocious creation had to take on Shawn. Why? because Hype demands it.
No, thank you! I'll watch wrestling which makes it fun and thrilling to watch.
You can tip the dancing bear and watch as much as hype as you like. I'll go back to watching Mascara Sagrade "wrestle" El matador.
Yes, for a while it was the only wrestling I watched.
Why SHOULD it be? It's called World Wrestling Entertainment, it's fulfilling that, even in the Stone Cold era, it was fulfilling that. Whether the gimmicks were stolen from ECW or not (A fair point), it was fulfilling it.
I liked ECW a lot more on the whole, but there is a reason more people watched WWE, it's not a coincidence you know.
I was into wrestling long before Austin came into it, Dwarf, so you're not only wrong there, but on your second claim. I didn't get "suckered" by McMahon. He was making TV that I enjoyed watching, it made me no less of a wrestling fan because I watched Austin's era and liked it. At the same time Taz was my favourite wrestler of all, he was in ECW, and I still consider him one of the most underrated, along with Nova and Chris Chetti.
If your childish retort is "YOU GOT SUCKERED!" then you may as well stop it. Not everyone who liked it got suckered. If that were the case, I'd still like the show. Far be it for us to watch WWE and enjoy the hype element of it. Yeah, let's condemn them to bingo halls and have them in an armbar for an hour. ECW wasn't great because of wrestling alone, it was great cos the wrestling was EXCITING. Dan Severn had great wrestling ability, but I'd rather watch paint dry than him in the WWE (Or WWF as it was known then).
Yeah, I mean mainstream fandom. Not the kind who sit on the net and expect everyone to be Jushin Liger or Benoit, people who recognise that whilst WWE isn't the best just cos it's famous, there is a clear reason every other federation didn't get the attention WWE did. WWE is hyped through the roof now more than ever, it's not seen as it was back from '98 to '03, though. I went to see WWF's Capital Carnage in 1998, they had no pyro, nothing. It was reliant purely on the hype of the matches, which included Austin. Now they have all the hype in the world and no Austin, The Rock is gone, and what's happened? Exactly.
So what? Austin is an icon, just not one that people liked because they weren't the same kids that liked Hogan.
Hogan, as a fact, held back many potential champions because he had to be the winner, had to be the good guy, had to be "immortal". Jake Roberts, Ted Dibiase, Ricky Steamboat etc. All potential champions held back until Taker finally came along and whooped him out, best thing to ever happen in WWF history, really.
Austin had detractors as every champ does, but at least other competitors were made to seem legit, it never always seemed guaranteed that Austin would make it out with the belt. You always knew Hogan would win, cos that's what Hogan did.
It doesn't matter if it "worked" for Austin, whether he was a likeable icon or not. Nobody has been as famous in wrestling since Hogan, and never was an era so revered as his.
Try not assuming, makes you look kind of stupid.
What, you think your some kind of under-the-radar wrestling fan cos you watch luche libre or something? Who gives a shit? I was at that stage too. I thought watching obscure federations made me cool, but in reality, besides a few decent wrestlers, they were mostly shit. That's why hardly anyone gives a shit about black and white movies coming out of Europe as opposed to 300, because...it's just not that good.
If that's where you find your entertainment, great, but please don't act like your some pioneering wrestling fan. I've been there and seen that at age 21, you're much older, so if anything you're catching onto the "I'm cool!" thing a bit late.
I was watching Hayabusa's deathmatches from New Japan when I was in my early teens. You don't get anything out of suggesting obscure wrestling to me, Dwarf.
They're all professional wrestlers. What do you expect? Matches full of holds? Go watch the olympics then.
Wrestling, in the mainstream, isn't some artistically credible medium, Dwarf. You're quite naive.
McMahon wants to make money, that's all he really cares about. He cares about putting asses in seats, selling tickets and selling merch, that's really about it. It just so happens that certain eras of doing that have produced great entertainment for different kinds of people.
He does what he wants and what he feels will make him money, and it does. Austin era did that, and brought entertainment and memories to a great many people, you were not one. Cry a river, build a bridge, get over it. It's why Cena had the belt for so long, this is another generation's turn. You had Hogan as did I, for a while, then for the bulk of it I had Austin, they have Cena. It's the way it works.
Many thought the same way about Hogan, and still do to this day. When he's around he is pissing people off cos he wants to be number one.
Yeah, and so will I, so will anyone. It makes us no less wrestling fans because we liked the Austin era.
You like Coldplay. Boring, dull, derivative shit in my opinion. U2, overrated, preachy, pretentious horseshit. I'm not going around accusing you of being a lesser music fan, you like what you like.
I'm actually in agreement with AC. They never claim to have great technical wrestling. It's just a soap opera on steroids (figuratively and literally). The hype, the acting, etc. is the main point and always has been since McMahon became big back in the 80's with Hogan and such.
How many more anticipatory and exciting things were there than after an elbow drop was performed you heard...
If you smeLLLLLLlllllalalalalaalalllllLLLLLLLLLoooooWWWWW
WWW...what the ROOOCK...is cookin'!!!!
*cue music*
..it was awesome.
I still remember a skit he had with Jerry the King and they were debating the greatest line in wrestling history. Ha! ...starting to crack up thinking about it.
He did: Woooh! To be the man! You gotta beat the....no, no, no, that can't be it. Man, that stinks.
Then: I am the best there is! The best there was, and the best there ever...pfff...no, no, no that can't be it. That stinks.
He then imitated: Whatya gonna do when the...no, no, no that's not it. That can't be the greatest line in wrestling history.
Oh I know.....If you smeLLLLL........
Hysterical shite, my man. Classic stuff. An entertainer second to none.
Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
Fullfiling WHAT? Characters from all over the world? That's a good one. Stop if you heard this one before.... but this one will kill ya Oh, let me guess...the Bolveshiks were actually from the Soviet Union...Kamala was from Uganda...Yeah, "World" wrestling, huh?
Of course there is no coindence...that's what Hype does. Bring in the crowds of clueless people and take their money away. WWE Tells them that they'll have a wrestling show....but what they have is an entertainment show...you get half a glass of what you want if you're a wrestling fan. The crowds just cheer whoever comes out with the biggest show.
That's nice that you were into WWE "entertainment" and not "wrestling". I find the name Stone Cold and wrestling to be an oxymoron. Because he is more ENTERTAINER than WRESTLER. So if you find Austin to be more of a wrestler than entertainer...whoah! Mc Mahon sure did a great job. You watch Austin and like it...I'm sure as a wrestling fan you sure did like his wrestling more than his acting....RIGHT?
You like Taz? Good! As a "wrestling" fan you would put Taz and Austin in the same category of "wrestling" or "entertainment"? You get a cookie if you get this one right.
Yes, the sucker it's the proper word. Anyone saying..."Oh! Stone Cold had a great wrestling match! The Stone Cold Cutter was awesome! What a great wrestler he is!" Gets that label perfectly fine.
Correction on ECW. Aside from "EXCITING" ECW delivered great performances because A. It was Hardcore B. Much more technical matches C. The characters and even fans hated anything and everything about WWF! Why? because WWF was simply atrocious! Yeah, Doink the Clown and Dink vs Jerry the King Lawler and another midget....OOOoooh!!!! Wrestling exciting!!!!
You know something? If Bingo halls can produce a more impact wrestling experience than big stadiums with gimmicks...which of the two would a wrestler fan enjoy? Hmmm...
Tell me what did happen?
Austin an icon? Of entertainment?! Oh, I'll give you one that one. But as a wrestlling icon? Oh, you have to be kidding here....aren't you?
Riiiight..that's why Hogan lost to Yokozuna. Who later lost to the other failed gimmick of "All American Lex Luger"
I'm sorry...but you're missing Andre the Giant. OBEY!
Back at you.
You obviously do give a shit. Since you're the one addressing me in the first place. Now as for the 300 and Europe and all that...you're getting delirious...stop and catch a breath.
Who is acting? Wasn't I clear enough when I said to you I'm giving a wrestling fan perspective. You're 21 and I'm 31....your point? Oh, if you want to verified that I was watching wrestling at age 11 when you still shitting on your diappers and crying at mom for your milk...then yeah, I was.
I was watching bootleg copies of Fist Wrestling from Brazil....your point?
Hahahaha!!! Oh, good one...Stone Cold a professional wrestler. Professional Entertainer more like it. Oh, wait! King Kong Bundy is a professional wrestler? BWAHWHAHAHA!!!
Wrestling *cough* Excuse me, WWE in the mainstream is exactly that Entertainment. I'll give you that WWE have good professional wrestlers. But they have to be there....it pays the bills. So when work is tight and they have put on a show...oh, well, it pays the bills.
I don't have to cry a river or build all that stuff. I didn't fell for it. You did and others...oh well. Que Sera? Sera? Whatever will be will be...
Why, yes! I DO like Coldplay and U2 is my all time favorite band.
...
You don't like them?
...
What do you want me to do? Explain something meaningful? Something that will convince you otherwise? Oh, heck I don't care. You had a point to make there or something? Wrestling and Music..what can I say? Two things I like.
__________________
Last edited by WanderingDroid on Nov 9th, 2007 at 01:52 AM
Wait, why are you being silly? You do this in every debate you have.
Fulfilling the entertainment, of course. Regardless of what big Mr. Dwarf thinks, it's always, somehow, fulfilling that.
Are you suggesting there's some kind of racism in WWE?
Oh give it a rest. You sound like Oscar the Grouch, and people call ME moany, jeez.
Why are they clueless? Do you not accept the fact that not everybody is dumb enough to expect CMLL when they go to a WWE show or watch it on TV? I didn't expect ECW, I expected exactly what I knew WWF/E would deliver. People sitting around complaining that WWE doesn't have what Mexican federations do, are idiots, because that has never, ever been the point.
Mexico has more or less always been about what you described, and that's cool, but WWE hasn't. WWE combines, or tries to, elements of everything because it HAS to try to please as many people as possible. For Vince, it has never been about making a top quality wrestling performance, the term "wrestling" is used very loosely. More so now, but over time also.
You think that because people don't watch Mexican wrestling they're idiots? I think people like you, who don't "get" what WWE is, are pretty high on the silly list also.
Who said I wasn't into wrestling? Why are you assuming that you cannot be into both? Wisdom with age clearly isn't a factual development...
Yes, he was more of an entertainer, what's your point? On his work permit it would say "Professional wrestler.", it doesn't literally mean he was some ring general, it's what the business is known as, take the literal stick out of your ass.
Steve Austin was one of my favourite entertainers in the wrestling business, never have I said he was a great wrestler, or that I enjoyed his wrestling, where are you getting this? Oh, you are making it up because as usual, you're proving you love to make stuff up.
And you get a big "F" stamp on your head for being such a corner-staring, back-of-the-class ignorant fool when it comes to wrestling. You are arguably one of the most uneducated wrestling "fans" I have ever seen, at least in your ability to understand the point of WWE, and read peoples' posts without putting your own ideas in.
Of course I wouldn't put them in the same catagory. Taz was a wrestler in the wrestling "business", the entertainment side. Austin was an entertainer in the entertainment side. I never said anything different, I...in fact, specified the opposite.
And so does anyone who thinks they're cool cos they can name Mexican wrestlers nobody really gives a shit about. I watched it for a long time because I felt I owed it to myself, AS a wrestling fan, to learn more of what it truly was, started as and become OUTSIDE of "entertainment". The fact that I enjoyed entertainment MIXED with wrestling, like ECW, like late '90s WWE, does not make me less of a fan.
Review that and come back when you've cracked why it's so hypocritical. Actually no, I'll tell you.
"Hardcore" is anything but technical, anything but traditional. All that IS, is hype, entertainment. Just because it's people who, in your eyes, were credible doing it, doesn't mean that "hardcore" is any closer to what you deem to be wrestling and any further from entertainment than Austin was.
Yeah, it's nice when you're sitting at home watching it, and ECW fans/wrestlers alike will tell you it's a huge part of their life, or was. They hated everything about WWF for the same reason people hate everything about U2 but love System of a Down.
They consider U2 boring in the face of what THEY like, personally. Like me. You hated WWF, fine by me, I loved ECW too. People WERE capable of CHOOSING to like WWF/E on their own terms, not everyone who enjoyed it was some mindless sheep, just like not everyone who enjoys Coldplay is an idiot with boring taste in music.
You might like bands I do, just like we both enjoyed ECW and Mexican wrestling, it doesn't mean you like music less cos of Coldplay or I like wrestling less cos of WWE, does it?
That wasn't my point, was it? My point was that there is a clear reason that they are in those positions. People are not wrong for wanting their "wrestling" to be a conduit for entertainment as the main point. There is no wrong or right here.
You are acting like hype and excitement is wrong, or that people are wrong or stupid for liking it. What would you say to those people who hate ANY kind of pro wrestling because it's scripted?
In MY opinion, it got shit, but that's the point. Hogan was hated and loved by "fans", Austin was, Cena now is.
It's all in the generations.
Where did I say that he was a good wrestler?
Wrestlemania 9, why did Hogan win the title instead of Bret Hart?
Go on, give it a try. Oh, he won it because he was a drama case. That's precisely why. The fans wanted Hogan as champ.
He was not as much of an icon as Austin, and I dare you to argue for Andre's wrestling ability.
Niiice. Did Vince Russo write that one for you?
I'll slow down for you, then.
Excellent, and for all that you've still not "got it". You still fail miserably to see the point of why so many different "wrestling" federations with different balances of entertainment/ability exist.
See? You're doing it again.
Stop hitting the panic button.
His occupation is professional wrestler, that is what it is known as. He doesn't "wrestle". Torrie Wilson's occupation form would say they same thing. They are in the wrestling "business", the have "wrestling" matches.
You and I both know they are not "wrestlers", my point was just general catagorisation. I'll dumb it down more next time.
Why do you honestly think all of ECW's wrestlers jumped ship? Ask Taz if he's happy commentating, a choice HE made.
WWF/E has put on some of the best wrestling shows. Angle Vs Benoit? You'd be out of your skull to suggest that wasn't a great wrestling match. Bret Hart Vs Michaels? Exactly. Then, Taker Vs Foley? It was an amazing match. If you wanna get caught up on "wrestler" being applied with the most anal of restrictions, then hardly anything nowadays is "wrestling". Go watch the olympics.
There's a reason YOU don't watch that, and watch scripted wrestling instead.
I didn't fall for it, I chose to watch it. At the same time I was watching stuff you consider to be great, and recognising the difference. You're just being stupid.
Nah, but apparantly you don't know the difference between good and shit, hmm? You got suckered in like everyone else!
No, you didn't, did you? You like them because you chose to like them. You're not wrong. I think they're shit, I think of Coldplay how you seem to think of WWE, you aren't "wrong" though.
Exactly. You like Coldplay, they entertain you. Many credible music fans would laugh at you, like you're laughing at WWE fans. I'm one of them.
Point being, I don't act like you're somehow a lesser person because of it, or stupid, or that you got suckered in. You, on the other hand, are ignorant.
I saw both Stone Cold and The Rock during their prime, and man oh man was it the best entertainment ever. The attitude era was so amazing. I remember looking forward to every Monday Night Raw and Smackdown. The tension was so great between the two of them. They always had so much respect for each other yet they were bitter rivals, and when they helped each other out during matches it was bliss. This is something that WWE can never re-capture. I stopped watching WWF after 2001, and obviously it has never been the same since.
I ALWAYS preffered Stone Cold over The Rock. Something about the whole Austin gimmick worked more than the Rock. Stone Cold was more IN YOUR FACE, the Rock was great but was just pale in comparison to Stone Cold. I hate to be technical here( since the whole concept of WWF fighting is scripted), but Wrestlemania 17 was the best Stone Cold Rock match ever, and Stone cold won that. Stone cold won a lot more matches over the rock than the rock did over stone cold. Of course it depended on who the writers made the heel at the time, but stone cold I felt was always head and toes over the Rock as a wrestler and with presence even. THis is not to discredit The Rock's persona what soever, but Stone Cold was just that damn amazing.
I think my favorite Stone Cold/Rock moment was Backlash 2000, when HELL BROKE LOSE.. Stone Cold helped the rock reclaim his wwf championship from triple H after PWNING every person on the ring. He returned after 9 months of absense! It was just for me the greatest wrestling moment ever, if not one of the very finest. Does anyone remember that match? If so, I would like to hear comments about that match.
Only once previously was this imitated.....when Hogan and Macho Man became buds. The flying elbow followed by leg drop on the likes of DiBiasi, King Kong Bundy, Big John Stud, and Paul Orndorff. Good times. Good times.
Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
Holy Essay Batman!
Lower your post to 10,000 characters AC. You're not giving a speech here.
I do this in every debate? Riiiight AC...you're doing your typical "10,000 word post argument" here and eventually shift off to other topics.
Fullfilling entertainment. Not wrestling...correct? You said it! Entertainment. Thank you.
Now stop doing a Philosophicus ploy to shift to other topics like racism.
Yeah, well I guess that makes you Big Bird by trying to find the word of the day. In your case the post of the day.
The mainstream is clueless when they swallow the theatrics of WWE when they call themselves "wrestlers" See, it's an easy trap. First WWE says it's wrestling. People with a good amount of reason call it as they see it. They say "that's not wrestling" so AHA! when Mc Mahon gets caught with this kind of reasoning he runs into the "entertainment" part. Which is what you're doing here as well.
In the mid 90's to mascarade their image WWF try to bring wrestlers from Japan and Mexico. It was then know as "The New Generation". It backfire on his ass when people started to appreciate the wrestling more than the hype. Mc Mahon's world theather was in danger. So he opted to make his entertainers appear more dominant. Kids like you fell for it. So props to Mc Mahon for making you think you were getting a wrestling match when you instead you got Entertain.
Your words not mine. I've given you a pretty wide view on what I think. So don't let it pass you.
Because you suck up what WWE gives you. If you're a wrestling fan then by all means learn to separate two things. 1. Entertainment 2. Wrestling. Sure you can have both. But when you confuse them you're lost.
Oh, that explains this whole fuss you're throwing here...you need to get your tantrums out. AC here is a lesson...You aren't the first one to try to argue with me about Stone Cold. You will lose. So lower the sword and banner. Your favorite entertainer is NOT a wrestler. He can only stomp, kick, punch, chug beer and yell out profanity.
Oooh-Ohh!! You come out with your typical Austin gimmick...."WHAT?" "WHAT?". Monkey see monkey do.
You get a cookie! I'll give you an Oatmeal cookie.
*gives cookie to AC*
There is hope for you after all.
Now, AC who gives a shit if you're a wrestling fan? hmm....?
There is nothing to review. Except that you say you're a wrestling fan. Who gives a shit? (how does a taste of your own medicine feel?)
I'll school you on this...
Hardcore wrestling have more heart and soul than entertaiment. Wrestlers risk injury or even death when performing these stunts. Hardcore isn't hype AC. Don't be sucha stick in the mud. Hardcore takes place nearly everywhere. In the WWE , ECW, Japanese, and BYW (Back Yard Wrestling I have translate that for you) Austin may have performed something similar to Hardcore. But because he was an investment of Vince. He never pull stunts like Foley or Taker.
Please reflect on your thoughts when considering what is hardcore and what is theater wrestling. It's a subject very close to me. Hardcore wrestlers get more respect than Austin. Which is a terrible shame people putting Austin first and hardcore wrestlers in third. Really a shame.
Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
Continue...
I don't hate the WWF. I don't suck up their antics like you were doing. We're not talking what we choose is what we like. We're talking about Entertainment and Wrestling. You're the one confusing the two.
Do you really think is important to me if other wrestling fans don't like U2 or Coldplay? I don't AC..I really don't. What I share with them is my love for wrestling. Heck! They could love Britney Spears for all I care. I only connect with them by wrestling. Different strokes for different folks.
AC...you're desperately trying to drag things here were they don't belong. What are you going to pull next? Other of my favorite things? You want a list?
Batman
DC Comics
Xbox 360
Cherry Coke
Pumpkin Pie
DS Lite
Spaghetti Westerns
70's Kung Fu flicks
Oh, I got one....HALO 3! Do your magic!
Your whole drive in this whole ordeal is because I call Stone Cold an Entertainer and not a wrestler. Hype and Excitment are not wrong. What is wrong is when people confuse two things that are not the same.
It's all in the characters. Get it right.
As I recall Ultimate Warrior was the next candidate. But because the man was never appropiate with his timing...he didn't get it.
I know you're in the UK AC. See, Andre is beyond the Icon Austin will ever be. Search the OBEY! movement. Andre is a god.
I dare you to watch some of Andre's wrestling matches prior to the 80's. Then come back and talk.
I'm not a hack like Austin. That was my own craft.
I'll speed it up for you since you're passing the point and missing it.
Federations will come and go. Wrestlers will always be remenber.
His occupation is Entertainer! That is why he makes movies. That is why he appears in Celebrety death matches. That is why he....oh, well if you dont' get it by now it's hopeless.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 8th, 2007 05:46 AM
