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Racism
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, it's on Page 13.


Holy crap. Just read more of the document. Apparantly, African American crime and imprisonement cannot be blamed on white racism or racial profiling. (It can, but only slightly when normalized with other heavily sub-saraha african groups.)

Crime in is 3 times higher in Caribean and African nations compared to asian nations.


Why are sub-sarahan Afriacns and their decendants so wrapped up in crime? It cannot be blamed on culture alone.


We do know that biology can play a part. They have higher testosterone which can lead to higher levels of agressiveness. So, that could ned itself to explaining the violence and crime, right? What about brain power? I thought more test helped one have a smarter brain? (That's what studies show.) So why do sub-sarahan africans and their decendeants have lower IQs?


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 08:26 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Crime in is 3 times higher in Caribean and African nations compared to asian nations.


Though you should realize that Asian nations are fairly totalitarian compared to the West. Sociologists tend to credit an long ingrained system of honor and filial piety for the minimal crimes in places like China and Japan.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Why are sub-sarahan Afriacns and their decendants so wrapped up in crime? It cannot be blamed on culture alone.


Wide spread poverty and constant state of civil war in many places?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
We do know that biology can play a part. They have higher testosterone which can lead to higher levels of agressiveness. So, that could ned itself to explaining the violence and crime, right? What about brain power? I thought more test helped one have a smarter brain? (That's what studies show.) So why do sub-sarahan africans and their decendeants have lower IQs?


Sub-saharan Africa is full of poor nations with limited educational systems. A lot of smart kids also get to other countries for their educations by either scholarships or their parents.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 08:56 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Though you should realize that Asian nations are fairly totalitarian compared to the West. Sociologists tend to credit an long ingrained system of honor and filial piety for the minimal crimes in places like China and Japan.


Yeah, I told this same information to Lil B. (Though she probably already knew this.)



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wide spread poverty and constant state of civil war in many places?


I'll buy widespread poverty in only some parts, but not civil war. The tests were from Johannesburg Uni.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Sub-saharan Africa is full of poor nations with limited educational systems. A lot of smart kids also get to other countries for their educations by either scholarships or their parents.


Yeah, I know this. IQ isn't really thep problem, it's the crime.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 09:04 PM
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lil bitchiness
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While back, I think it was in my first or second year at Uni, we read some theory of environmental impact on human behaviour.

I do not recall it all, but I know that it stated that people in extreme hot places had tendency to have slightly more emphasised (not to say extreme) patterns of behaviour, and one of those was agression.
It went on to say that Egyptians for example, generated some of their aggression through building.

I cannot recall what that theory was getting on or anything, but it is an useful piece of info.
I can grant though, that more eastern you go, especially the Middle East people tend to be more over the top in everything, compared to more calm and constructed Westerners.
So...there could be some truth to it.


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Last edited by lil bitchiness on Oct 3rd, 2009 at 09:27 PM

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 09:23 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
While back, I think it was in my first or second year at Uni, we read some theory of environmental impact on human behaviour.

I do not recall it all, but I know that it stated that people in extreme hot places had tendency to have slightly more emphasised (not to say extreme) patterns of behaviour, and one of those was agression.
It went on to say that Egyptians for example, generated some of their aggression through building.

I cannot recall what that theory was getting on or anything, but it is an useful piece of info.
I can grant though, that more eastern you go, especially the Middle East people tend to be more over the top in everything, compared to more calm and constructed Westerners.
So...there could be some truth to it.



What about the Vikings who were basically the terrors of anything and anyone they wanted?


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 09:49 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
What about the Vikings who were basically the terrors of anything and anyone they wanted?


By the way they weren't raping and pillaging more than anybody else. They just got that reputation because the rest of Europe was Christian and they wanted to villify the heathens.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 10:55 PM
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lil bitchiness
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
By the way they weren't raping and pillaging more than anybody else. They just got that reputation because the rest of Europe was Christian and they wanted to villify the heathens.


Indeed.

Vikings were also very hygienic au contraire the popular belief.


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في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 11:08 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
By the way they weren't raping and pillaging more than anybody else. They just got that reputation because the rest of Europe was Christian and they wanted to villify the heathens.


It's not as if I'm making it up. no expression


quote:
The first recorded Viking raid upon the British Isles occurred in 793 C.E., during the reign of King Beorhtric of Wessex. Simeon of Durham recorded the grim events:

"And they came to the church of Lindisfarne, laid everything waste with grievous plundering, trampled the holy places with polluted feet, dug up the altars and seized all the treasures of the holy church. They killed some of the brothers; some they took away with them in fetters; many they drove out, naked and loaded with insults; and some they drowned in the sea."

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle for the year 793 records:

"In this year terrible portents appeared over Northumbria and sadly affrightened the inhabitants: there were exceptional flashes of lightning, and firey dragons were seen flying in the air. A great famine followed soon upon these signs, and a little after that in the same year on the ides of June the harrying of the heathen miserably destoyed God's church in Lindisfarne by rapine and slaughter".

Within the next five years, Viking raiders would strike at Lindisfarne and Jarrow in Northumbria, at Wales, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Isle of Iona in Scotland, and even the islands off Aquitaine in France. Over the next 250 years, the Vikings became justly feared throughout Europe as the Hammer of the North.

From the beginning of the sixth to the end of the eighth century, the European mainland was more or less free of external invasion. Early in the ninth century, however, this peace came to an end.

Historians distinguish three phases to the Viking raids. The first phase of attacks was from 790-840. The Vikings used shallow draught longships which were ideally suited for surprise raids on coastal locations that struck terror into their victims. The fleets were small, making a "hit-and-run" tactic of the attacks that could enable the raiders to row away as swiftly as they had come. The attacks were usually seasonal and isolated in small bands. These attacks began along the coastal cities in England and France and continued down along the river communities. The Carolingian Empire was deeply affected by the raids at this time. Frisia and Aquitaine in modern day France were two of the first provinces attacked by the Vikings, Aquitane being attacked by Norwegian raiders returning from Ireland. The most notable attack was on the monastery at Noirmountier. This island monastery was attacked every summer. The monks tried many defenses, but they eventually left the island for safer lands. The trading centers in Frisia, particularly Dorestad, were a favorite targets of the Vikings in 834-839.

During the second phase of Scandinavian activity from 841-875, the raids increased in number, size, intensity and speed. By 851, the fleet ships had increased from 3 ships to 350 ships per raiding party. The Vikings arrived, unexpectedly, by plundering, burning, killing or enslaving the inhabitants and then leaving the conquered lands. This war tactic accounted for the Vikings' great success in this period. They met no organized resistance, but the Vikings were defeated here and there from particular clan groups. New hordes came to fill the gap, or they turned their attention elsewhere. In 843, the Viking warriors wintered on foreign soil for the first time. They settled at Aquitaine, and this place was never completely free of Vikings. Gradually, the Viking attacks moved from English and French soil to the Mediterranean Sea. In 844, a fleet attacked Nantes, Toulouse, Gijon, Lisbon and Seville. This fleet was defeated, and returned to Aquitaine. A second fleet reached even further, raiding North Africa, France and Spain, and then continued on to Italy where it was defeated. The Vikings formed the "Great Army" that consisted of thousands of individuals. This was an important military achievement for the Vikings during these years. The leaders continued to change, and different bands raided different areas. The war-bands increased in size, and each war-band fought for itself. Occasionally, the armies even fought against each other. As they expanded their conquests, the invaders also began to leave their ships and travel on foot or on horseback.

By remaining on foreign soil, the Vikings increased the political threat to the local rulers. Some Viking parties joined forces with enemies of the kings or rulers. Many Anglo-Saxon and Frankish rulers bought off the Vikings in an attempt to remove them from their lands. In 862, Charles the Bald tried to fortify the bridges to stop the passage of the Viking fleets, but it remains unclear if these bridges were successful.

In the third phase between the years of 876-911, the Vikings, along with their Great Army, continued to plunder on both sides of the Channel and began to colonize England and France. They also permanently settled in lands they had raided such as Ireland, Iceland, and areas in Russia around Novgorod and Kiev. The military response from the conquered peoples varied from one ruler to another. In some places, the Vikings met great opposition from the people. After suffering devastating blows from the Vikings, the English army reorganized: half its men were home and half out on service. A new type of craft was constructed which could oppose the Viking longships in shallow coastal waters. Therefore, when the Vikings returned from the continent in 892, they could no longer roam the country at will due to opposition by the local army's counterattack. Charles the Simple, king of the West Franks, ended the Viking raids in 911 by giving Normandy to the Vikings. In return, Rollo, a Viking leader, pledged his allegiance to Charles, was then baptized, and defended the lands against other Viking parties.

It's worth noting that raids similar to those conducted by the Vikings occurred in other parts of Europe during the Viking era. What made the Viking raids so notable was their success (due in large part to the superiority of Viking ships) and their extent (well outside the borders of the Norse lands).

The raids were only one aspect of the Norse expansion. It's not clear what triggered this outward movement at the end of the 8th century. Perhaps it was due to population pressure, since portions of Scandinavia were overpopulated by the standards of the time.

Dudo of St. Quentin's Gesta Normannorum is probably the earliest attempt to explain the Viking expansion. Written around 1020AD, the part which describes the factors that Dudo believed led to the Viking settlements and raids is in chapter 2:
http://orb.rhodes.edu/ORB_done/Dudo/chapter02.html

There is a *lot* of scholarship out there discussing the whys and wherefores of the Viking expansion. If your school library doesn't have these books, check the public library. You can also usually go to a college or university library to use a book on the premises, though you won't be able to check it out -- college libraries also have xerox machines, so you can photocopy key information.

Some excellent discussions of the Viking expansion:

Fitzhugh, William W. and Elisabeth I. Ward, eds. Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga. Washington DC: Smithsonian Institution Press. 2000. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...hevikinganswerl
[This is the companion book to the travelling "Vikings!" exhibit from the Smithsonian.]

Magnusson, Magnus. Viking Expansion Westwards. London: The Bodley Head. 1973. Out-of-print, to have Amazon.com do a book search for it go to: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...hevikinganswerl

Sawyer, P. H. Kings and Vikings: Scandinavia and Europe, A.D. 700-1100. New York: Methuen. 1982. Reprint, 1993. To order from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...hevikinganswerl
[Discusses the Viking expansion westwards, including raids and piracy affecting Western Europe, with an assessment of the consequences, good and bad, that this activity had on both the Vikings and their victims.]

Jones, Gwyn. A History of the Vikings. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1968. To order from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...hevikinganswerl

Foote, Peter and David M. Wilson. The Viking Achievement. London: Sidgewick and Jackson. 1970. Out-of-print, to have Amazon.com do a book search for it go to: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...hevikinganswerl

Pulsiano, Phillip et al., eds. Medieval Scandinavia: An Encyclopedia. Garland Reference Library of the Humanities 934. New York & London: Garland. 1993. Out-of-print, to have Amazon.com do a book search for it go to: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...hevikinganswerl

Lund, N. "Allies of God or Man? The Viking Expansion in a European Perspective." Viator 20 (1989): 45-59.

Also see:

http://viking.hgo.se/Files/VikHeri/.../expansion.html
http://www.valhs.org/history/articl.../text/raids.htm




Edit - Don't know a response to "everyone else" other than it being a large part of their culture to raid. I don't read about that from other peoples in western Europe. I read about political things.


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Last edited by dadudemon on Oct 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 PM

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 11:19 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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"It's worth noting that raids similar to those conducted by the Vikings occurred in other parts of Europe during the Viking era. What made the Viking raids so notable was their success (due in large part to the superiority of Viking ships) and their extent (well outside the borders of the Norse lands)."

So yeah, they weren't holy terrors because the went on raids. They were holy terrors because they were really good at it.


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Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 11:34 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's not as if I'm making it up. no expression


Like I said im not arguing that they didn't rape and pillage.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon

Edit - Don't know a response to "everyone else" other than it being a large part of their culture to raid. I don't read about that from other peoples in western Europe. I read about political things.


Well heres what I have to say on everybody else. According to the Norse Sagas I can think of at least one example of a Christian Anglo Saxon King who wanted to raid Norway because they were heathens. Eventhough this is one example I got the impression that this was an ongoing thing.

edit: Just double checked The raiders were actually from Denmark but they were Christians

Also look at Olaf The Lawbreaker eventhough he was Norwegian he was Christian and spent years terrorizing Norway and trying to convert the people. Also if you read Magnus Magnussons The Vikings he points out Viking people were actually picked on and some of the Viking people that settled in England were just travellers.

Again its needs to be pointed out that the Vikings were pagans so it was in the interest of some Christians to make them look bad.


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Last edited by Deadline on Oct 3rd, 2009 at 11:44 PM

Old Post Oct 3rd, 2009 11:39 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again its needs to be pointed out that the Vikings were pagans so it was in the interest of some Christians to make them look bad.


It was also in the interests of the Vikings . . .

I seriously doubt that they did anything to make people think otherwise.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:02 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

I seriously doubt that they did anything to make people think otherwise.


What you mean like the loads of Norse people who setteled in England who weren't raiders? Im pretty sure they made people think otherwise by not raping and pillaging.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:06 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It was also in the interests of the Vikings . . .

I seriously doubt that they did anything to make people think otherwise.


Their boats and tactics took them farther and made them more successful. There's also the fact that their culture was built around being warriors and dying in baaaah uhl.


Back on track...


Do those numbers that Lil B was talking about take into account Europe's early exploits? If not, then the data she was talking about is only "concurrent" and does not reflect genetics as much as it does concurrent culture.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:09 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Their boats and tactics took them farther and made them more successful.


Ok not everybody who was a Viking was a raider there were lots of people that didnt rape and pillage as well, there were also Christians that terrorized the pagans.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
There's also the fact that their culture was built around being warriors and dying in baaaah uhl.


You are wrong.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:11 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What you mean like the loads of Norse people who setteled in England who weren't raiders? Im pretty sure they made people think otherwise by not raping and pillaging.


But the ones who were raiders would have done everything they could to maintain that image. It makes the job of sacking a town that much easier if everyone is scared shitless of you.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:12 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But the ones who were raiders would have done everything they could to maintain that image. It makes the job of sacking a town that much easier if everyone is scared shitless of you.


.....as I pointed out to you there were also lots of people who didn't do that. So painting all the Vikings with the same brush is wrong.

edit: From my understanding as well the Anglo-Saxons were killing each other as well but I can't remember specific details.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:15 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok not everybody who was a Viking was a raider there were lots of people that didnt rape and pillage as well, there were also Christians that terrorized the pagans.


K.

But that's not really a counter the REAL point being discussed. You can argue semantics in another thread, if you'd like. No one here is saying that "every last Viking was a raider and every last Viking strove to die in battle." It should be quite obvious that the context of this discussion is ALL relative to other medieval cultures, specifically to the western European peoples.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You are wrong.


K. But I'm not.

I've already posted what I posted. Just read it again and you will see what I said is correct.

Here, I'll save you time:

quote:
He said that it was once the custom of powerful men to go off raiding, in order to win riches and renown for themselves. Even if sons inherited their family lands, they were unable to sustain their high status unless they put themselves and their men at risk and went into battle, winning wealth and renown for themselves. Ketill concluded by saying to his son, "You have now reached the age when it would be right for you to put yourself to the test and find out what fate has in store for you."

Raiding increased a man's stature in Viking society. A successful raider returned home with wealth and fame, the two most important qualities needed to climb the social ladder.

Raiding was often a part-time occupation. Chapter 105 of Orkneyinga saga describes the habits of Svein Ásleifarson. In the spring, he oversaw the planting of grain on his farm at Gáreksey. When the job was done, he went off raiding in the Hebrides and Ireland, but he was back to the farm in time to take in the hay and the grain in mid-summer. Then he went off raiding again until the arrival of winter.



There's also the fact that dying in battle was the only way to get taken to Valhalla.


And, I'm quite certain that the Vikings did much more raiding, per capita, than other concurrent European cultures. The idea that since "others did it too" is a counter point to the Vikings NOT being relatively active raiders is wrong.


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Last edited by dadudemon on Oct 4th, 2009 at 12:30 AM

Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:23 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
.....as I pointed out to you there were also lots of people who didn't do that. So painting all the Vikings with the same brush is wrong.


I don't deny that. However, placing the popularity of "Vikings are badass warriors who can't be stopped" simply in the hands of people who didn't like them isn't entirely accurate, though they almost certainly originated it. The Viking raiders wanted that reputation just pirates and ninjas and such did.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:23 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
.....as I pointed out to you there were also lots of people who didn't do that. So painting all the Vikings with the same brush is wrong.


No one is doing that, though. Find where anyone has posted "all vikings were raiders without exception."

You won't find that because no one said it or implied it.


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Old Post Oct 4th, 2009 12:25 AM
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Vikings were pillaging bad-asses. Watch Erik The Viking. /the end.


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