I like this idea, a lot, actually. It makes perfect sense. The Saiyans are a warrior race where fighting ability is honored and respected. It only makes sense that if there were only a few left and the Saiyans were the strongest, second only to Frieza and his upper lieutenants, that they'd be a very close tight group.
No, that makes perfect sense. It couldn't have been designed better.
The Saiyan race is a caste system based on power levels at birth.
Goku and Radditz were born to low-level warriors (initially, they were low-level. Bardock got stronger by beating the odds on his suicide missions, over and over.) They were at the bottom of the barrel. Radditz was actually stronger than he should have been due to them getting so many tough missions.
Nappa was the general of the Saiyan military: he should be second in power ONLY to the royal family: the Vegetas. Now, you can definitely make a case for Vegeta being too far beyond Nappa beause Nappa should have been second only to royalty, but who's to say what the gap should be? It makes sense that the royal family, in a caste system that "casted" by family power-levels and at birth power-levels, would have the royal ruling family at much stronger levels than even the next highest caste. They have to rule and ruling is determined, quite literally, by strength.
So, I agree with how it was done, in the manga. That's really how it should have been if we stick the original idea of the social and political systems in the warrior race.
Indeed. Vegeta AND Nappa both changed their power levels. Frieza ran around in a very "condensed" power level form. Obviously, everyone knew that power-levels greatly fluctuated. It was stupid that it was written that way.
No. That was one of the most awesome things about Goku. It was thoroughly entertaining that Goku showed up, after the most intense training ever, being far above everyone elsee except Frieza. That was quite enjoyable watching him WTF pwn the Ginyu people.
There was no way to know that. In fact, it was almost directly stated, and was certainly implied, that he didn't have problems with other bodies. It would seem that Goku's body was a strange exception: possibly because he was a martial arts master, at that point.
Hmmm. I also didn't like that third form. The large adult form, the straight to the angular form, yeah, that seems much better.
Nah. I didn't want Goku to die. However, I liked that, in the anime, Vegeta got to see Goku in SSJ form before they left. It's just wrong that Vegeta wouldn't have gotten to see SSJ Goku before he died. It would be cruel and wrong for that to happen to Vegeta.
And, KK, don't take me going down your ideas as offensive. I think your ideas are awesome and I love talking about these things.
Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with that. Goku was a martial arts master at that point: using his absurd skill to get the most out of his body. The body is stronger with the mind of the master...I guess.
The power level system was interesting, but an explanation of how it works would be nice.
Other data would be nice too. Strength, speed and destructive capabilities should have been established. It would've save people all around the world a lot of time.
Sorry for the double post; forgot to reply to these other few parts earlier.
So wait, you think Frieza getting cut in half by his own attack and then being rebuilt with mechanical parts was original?
I don't recall the fight with Kid Buu being on earth, since he blew it up and all. The final battle with Baby in GT wasn't on earth either, as they fought on the Tuffle planet. Need I go on?
That would've been stupid if it was.
Not really, since Saiyans cannot breathe in space like Frieza, Cell, etc. can. If they could, then that would've been another story.
I agree with you from the perspective of examining Saiyan culture, but from a storyline perspective it didn't work very well to me and it kind of made you stop caring about the defeated foes when they were so rapidly surpassed.
As an alternative, I think something that could have worked was if Radditz was closer to their level, but they still acted like he was way weaker because of their ingrained attitude about caste. Then when Goku was able to defeat them even though he was lower, Vegeta would have realized he should have known because of Radditz, but he'd never looked at him through a clear lens until his defeat by Goku, after which it was too late.
Tastes do differ. I personally have never really enjoyed complete pwnage unless I actually dislike the character being beaten (like Sasuke vs Kirabi or something) or really want to see the character kick ass. However I was never crazy about Goku, and I enjoyed the Ginyu force, so it seemed really unsatisfactory. Especially since Recoome had had a great fight with Vegeta prior, and it really did discredit to the other characters for Goku to roll over them so easily.
I might be able to accept that if not for the fact that Goku said that he couldn't control Ginyu's ki, so it was logical Ginyu couldn't control his. That made it seem like it was a problem to be expected. If it was ever actually stated that it was something specific to Goku's body, then I wouldn't have minded it at all. I also thought the anime handled it better by stating that Ginyu was gradually learning to draw out more and more of Goku's power, while in the anime he just looked like a fool.
Eh, I disagree. It was a real "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" and a real tear jerker that helped redeem Vegeta. A great end to someone who by the end of the Frieza saga, while not all terrible, still was definitely not one of the heroes.
If the anime ended at the Frieza saga, it could have gone either way. It was mentioned that the original super saiyan self-destructed from his unrestrained power, so having that be the fate of Goku might have worked. I think the whole planet exploding spaceship getaway was really, really stupid though and they either should have killed him proper or not have the planet explode at all.
If we're going to go a saga further, then I think he should die. He overshadows the rest of the cast too much. They handled it in the android saga okay up until the time chamber, where he came out too far ahead again.
I liked the androids actually, and something interesting could have come of them. However I didn't like cell at all. Such a contrived character. The biggest problem is it just makes no sense at all for the androids being that powerful.
To fix the android saga, it could have made sense if Goku and Vegeta both stayed dead. Then we could see how the rest of the Z-fighters would manage with their unofficial leader dead. This would work because we'd get to see both more of the under-represented z-fighters, and the androids power would be explained because they were superior to the z-fighters of the arc, but not necessarily to Frieza.
Trunks beat Frieza and his father in a flash though, and if the Androids were not superior to Frieza, Trunks would've just as easily done the same to them, which would've made a damn short arc.
But aside from that, I agree in that it would've been a bit more interesting had Goku and Vegeta stayed dead.
That's an okay explanation for them being, say, Nappa level. Definitely not Frieza level.
Oh yeah. I wouldn't have included mecha-frieza part of the arc due to it being completely retarded. Frieza definitely should have stayed dead to Goku, and we did not need to see his father. It was so disrespectful to a character who at the very least I respected for power and ruthlessness.
I dunno. I think King Cold would've made a great villain had he not been just a throwaway character and if he was more fleshed out like his son was with more screentime and stuff (same with Dabura), and perhaps a transformation or two. Definitely agree though that the whole Mecha Frieza thing shouldn't have been included at all, as it did the character no justice...
But wasn't Goku close to death in Ginyu's body? On top of that, he was severely injured. Hard to control your Ki when your life energy is fading towards death, right?
And, lulz at the rest.
But wasn't the whole series based around the magical dragonballs? Eventually, Vegeta would have been revived. But, yeah, Vegeta's speech right before death was quite awesome.
Yeah, we have different tastes on this. I really wanted Goku to live and for Vegeta to see a Super Saiyan. I like the idea that someone mentioned earlier of Vegeta turning Super Saiyan and defeating Frieza. That might have been me, actually. I forget. But, that sounded good. That would have been a much sweeter deal, imo. Vegeta deserved it more than anyone.
Why not make them that powerful? They have an "eternal" power supply. Dr. Gero was an absurdly intelligent robotics engineer. But, you're right, Dr. Gero wouldn't know that the SSJ form existed (which is like...what....50 times more powerful than regular powered up base form?)
It would have been nice for Trunks to come back in time and then seen the Z warriors handle 17 and 18 like they were mildly amusing. And THEN have Cell come by and consume the other androids. But, make it smarter than the series: make the androids power sources be the target, and not the androids.
Oh, okay. I don't like this version as well as th original. It's still interesting. But, I like Goku the most. He's my fave. He eats absurd amounts of food, he loves to fight, and he fights for righteousness. Cool dude...n'stuff. I want him to remain as the main character. I liked the whole mystical hidden power thing about Gohan...maybe more of that, too?
That WOULD be true, but they actually explicitly had Goku say that on top of being injured, he couldn't control Ginyu's body, and that the same should go for Ginyu in his body, which ended up being totally accurate.
I was pretty perplexed why they wanted to bring him back at all, since he was still in his "conquer the universe" phase before he died.
He did, but it was obvious as soon as we heard of the super saiyan legend, that that was going to be Goku's role. He is the main character after all, and Vegeta's death was one of the few things that worked really well imo. It was the fulfillment of Goku's role to become the super saiyan, and if it was vegeta all it would have done was give credence to his "only a high class saiyan can be SSJ" ideas he was carrying.
Gohan's hidden power was expressed when he was the only one who could be the true super saiyan (at the time what SSJ2 was considered to be), and that was the manifestation of the hidden power that we had only seen glimpses of so far. But this didn't work, because of two reasons: One, Goku did really, really well against Cell first which made it seem like less was at stake. And two, after that saga everyone and their mother could go SSJ2, so they needed mystic Gohan to make him special again. Since the Buu saga isn't included, SSJ2 is Gohan's true power and his alone.
I would have kept Bulma and Yamcha as a couple and hook Vegeta up with someone like Launch.
Maybe I would have also kind of changed Cell a little bit too. His goal of doing nothing but destroying and killing people is just too...typical.
After he absorbed the androids, I would have him go to another planet full of evil aliens, destroy its leader, take over that planet's fighters and THEN attack Earth. Then an all-out epic war would begin, with either Goku or Gohan fighting against Cell.
A. That's the point. Goku continously did training that was more difficult than anything he had done before and while he was doing that, he experienced two-near death instances. Also, remember, he was doing this in 6 days straight.
B. Most of the the time, Vegeta fought guys weaker than he was because all he mainly wanted was the Dragonballs to get immortality. The only times he got stronger was after his first fight with Zarbon and his fight with Recoome so all of that really didn't much for him compared to what Goku had done.
Kai actually made DBZ more watchable as far as getting rid of pointless fillers and such (screw fanservice), and had better voices for some of the characters. Its biggest con though was the lack of Bruce Faulconer soundtracks, but I kinda praise them for not giving the Buu saga the Kai treatment since it was pretty much a shit arc anyway, even if you took out the worst of it like Kai did with the other sagas. Why they put shitty GT back on the air though after Kai ended with the Cell Games, is beyond me.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Kai and find it to be far better than the original anime.
Obviously it cut's out the filler, which is great IMO, but it also drastically improves the dialogue making it closer to the anime. For example, Goku's I am a Super Sayan speech is far better in Kai than his pseudo-Jesus one in the funmation dub.
First and foremost I'd add another saga centering around time travel and parallel universes. Were we'd be able to see characters like Trunks and the alternate reality bastard child of Goku and Bulma to expand on the Z Fighters roster. Because no one likes Krillin and Tien.
Secondly I'd work on the consistency in power, and use something like pocket dimensions for battles to protect the surroundings in the later arcs. I'm thinking something akin to Frieza's imprisonment ball, but dimensionally folded to encompass the size of the universe.
I'd also try to incorporate a broader range of techniques, and maybe at some point make chi and magic overlap. I mean Goku doesn't have to be able to conjure clothes like Kibito or Piccolo, but the matter manipulation Kai demonstrated could've been used creatively.
Goku gambling with the Earth and up because he wants the next generation to start taking his place. Good idea in theory, but done at the worst possible times.
-Stopping the equaled fight against Cell then healing him.
Caused the death of himself, King Kai, Bubbles and his planet. Not to mention the perma-death of 16. And if the risk of getting Gohan to SS2 didnt work everyone would have died.
-Not killing Buu when he had the chance.
Caused the death of the whole population save for a dozen, the Earth and some other planets. All for two Krillen-level children who's fusion failed until reaching SS3, which Goku did not plan for.
Now if it was Vegeta's choice...
I would have liked to see a major villain with some deph and plan, back to what Frieza was. Cell and Buu were too similar in goals and abilities. Perhaps a rival to the Saiyan race who were mostly wiped out by Frieza's army, seeking vengeance and claiming Earth for themselves. It would take away the Hax Cell and Buu had, leaving more room for actual combat. And would take away the funnel fight paths they always take: Beat henchmen > Main fighters are no-shows > Others fight Boss and lose > Main's come back and stomp/stalemate > PIS defeat.
Having more heavy hitters would create some purpose of having anyone but Goku and Gohan.
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Mar 12th, 2010 07:27 PM
