Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
There was a pretty interesting discussion going on here, so just my two cents- I believe the clones, despite being constructed and intended to be emotionless killing machine, in fact developed a personality and an attachment to their Jedi commanders.
This is notably seen in three instances; Obi-Wan's 'buddy'-styled relationship with Commander Cody. If Cody did not have human emotions, he wouldn't have joked around with Obi-Wan- orders, however, came before that for Cody. In Felucia, meanwhile, the Clones grew a deep respect and admiration for Aayla Secura, due to her feats on the battlefield, which involve saving the Clones' asses plenty of times. Perhaps the best example is seen in the beginning of Rise of Darth Vader, where a group of clones- due to their attachment to the Jedi commanders- refuse to carry out the orders, and let the Jedi escape.
Clearly, these Clones have developed a personality beyond their creator's original plans.
I doubt it's beyond the plans. Palpy need Clones to be better than mindless droids. So Clones needs personality to use creativity in battle, thus having an advantage over preprogrammed droids. It's not surprising a personality comes into play, but I doubt it's something that grows beyond the purpose they were made for.
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
Judging by the comments made by the show's writers about this very issue, I am happy to concede that this is so.
That said, they DO all turn bad in the end, so theyt are still not fully developed sentient beings in the way we would recognise it; free will is essential to such a term. Cody turned bad with all of them.
I feel this statement by the film overrides what Rise of Darth Vader says. It was simply not possible for even the Jedi to prevent betrayal by their friends amongst the Clones. If Obi-Wan and Yoda could not, no-one could.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
They have developed a range of emotions beyond what they were 'supposed' to possess, but nevertheless, the fundamental core of the Clone Troopers is follow-orders-at-all-costs. Meaning, even if they developed an attachment to someone, orders from the Supreme Commander still come first.
They aren't entirely human, but they aren't emotionless machines, either.
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
The thing is, it wasn't even 'orders come first'. There was no sign of regret or remorse from Cody, nothing in the line of "I hate to do this but ordersd are orders" (which is immoral enough a creed as it is). No, he went straight at it, just as enthusiastically as he had been fighting alongside him moments before.
Horrifying in many ways, and I think it goes beyond an inbuilt subservience. It's a moral void.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Well...we saw the clone wars episodes last night here in America...It was decent enough even tho the droids did too much talking.. Overall it was pretty good and the second episode that came on was pretty damn awesome. It was alot grittier and more Clone Wars like...
__________________ Ash - Grey Jedi
"I see more Grey than Light or Dark now days." - Jolee Bindo
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
That's manifestly untrue- you should read things properly. Alliance was trying to override things said on film with his own opinion, saying blanket things like that the lines by the Kaminoans about the troopers were lies, because these canon facts did not suit him.
The film facts here are actually clear. To support Alliance's position is contrary tp canon and thus folly.
It is canon that the Clones were made the way they were.
It is canon about how Cody acted with order 66 even after a long relationship with Obi-Wan.
In fact it is clear that with ALL the major Jedi who had had years to build up such relationships, their commanders cold-bloodedly ordered or caused their deaths without pause for thought or reason.
All facts for those with the wit to see them. Now, don't be like Alliance and constrcut you own contrary view and then try to selectively ignore canon to make it work for gim. That doesn't swing. Hence his attitude in this thread is an extremely bad one to find laudable.
There's plenty of room for debate about the Clones, but Alliance's pretention to his nonsense being intelligent thought was just whitewash. There is nothing smart or deeper-looking about simply ignoring presented facts to suit your own view. That's all he did.
Again, the canon rules here are clear. Your opinion does not trump what the films say, and that is what Alliance was trying to do and what you are trying to support.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"
BtVS
Last edited by Ushgarak on Oct 4th, 2008 at 03:44 PM
Oct 3rd, 2008 06:01 PM
