ok, now let's leave reality and go back to comics. you do realize the writers and artists don't think that deeply through right? they're not going for accuracy
one day, Supe gets hit hard and gets damage, another day he gets hit even harder and just shrugs it off
thats the nature of comics, its always inconsistent because different ppl are working on it
Mjolnir detects that superman is a great and noble being, therefore it's magical devastating effects are dampened. Superman is a being worthy of wielding Mjolnir, it can't harm him like other forms of magic. This is just a possibility.
Your post misses the point. People are defending the validity of the JLA/Avengers fight as a consistent piece of writing and an accurate protrayal of what would happen. I am arguing against those proponents.
Excuse me while I add this to the "101 Excuses Why Superman Has No Weakness To Magic in JLA/Avengers." This is the 2nd worst explanation I've heard behind the "mystical is different from magical" argument.
And no, I don't think it's one-sided pr1983. If you do, then point out the weakness or contradiction in my logic. Everything I state makes perfect sense.
first, i think you're overestimating the damage diana's tiara did to superman, he healed quickly enough...
second, i'm not debating for one second that a hammer doesn't cause damage when it hits you, it'd hurt like a motherf*cker, but thats not the point...
if you stab me in the eye, you can destroy my eye, and even pierce my brain (if the angle was correct), and probably kill me. if you raise a hammer and hit me in the same spot, it can shatter bone, it can probably destroy my eye socket, but i'm more likely to survive that than i am the stabbing...
stabbing (imo in most cases) does more critical damage at a comparable level to a hammer...
now, i have nothing but admiration for busiek, he's a fine writer on his day, but the crossovers are fraught with bullshit... unfortunately, being that this is a cross company fight, the only real comparison that can be made is from the fight itself (as messed up as it is). i dont think it should be taken literally, but as a start-off point i think its a necessity...
Look, I'm going to step back a little here. I don't mean my criticisms to sound as scathing as they are. They are not personal insults. But some of the explanations and counterarguments are reaching the point of pure ludicrousness and I do wish to point that out.
1) Snoop cites that some character who absorbs power and has no weakness to magic is directly analagous to Superman who has a weakness to magic.
2) Pr1983 argued that a hammer has more impact area, so the force of the strike would be spread out and not result in a mangled face.
3) Masterbruce argued that Mjolnir differentiated Superman's nobility from other targets and didn't bring its full power to bear on Superman.
4) Pr1983 then said that the tiara throw's effect was superficial. (No it wasn't, it completely stopped bloodlusted Superman in his tracks because his throat was shredded and put him on his knees.)
5) Pr1983 also states that you can survive a blow to the face with a hammer. (Completely off-point. I know you can survive. I never argued that Superman would be dead with one Mjolnir blow. But you're gonna come out of it with worse than a mere bloody lip. Like you said, cracked bone or better yet, a great big bruise. But stop ignoring that this isn't a rubber mallet. Its a rock hammer. A thrown rock hammer in the face would smash your face.)
6) Masterbruce argues now that the tiara slice in 'Sacrifice' is the PIS and not the JLA/Avengers fight. Lovely. (Keep in mind that Jim Lee's run on Superman showed Diana flicking a dagger on Superman's cheek and it cut him there too. So you'd have to argue that case was PIS too.)
These excuses are ridiculously attenuated. They stretch the limits of plausibility. The fact that these are indicative of all the arguments for the "accurateness of the JLA/Avengers fight" is simple evidence that there is no logical coherent explanation for what happened in JLA/Avengers other than Busiek ignored the weakness to magic. Therefore, if he ignored the weakness to magic because he was, as sometimes writers are, extremely inconsistent with comic mythos, then you cannot in all good conscience continue to cite such a fight as being PIS-free or consistent. It isn't. It's stupid. Don't think hard about it. Superman supporters have far better things to race to for support of Big Blue.
Don't confuse Thor fanboyism or DC-haterade with the validity of their complaints with the fight. It really is a stupidly and poorly written fight. The support for the logic of the fight is available for review. And as you can see from the cursory list, the support for the logic of the fight is attenuated, weak, ignorant, off-point or overreaching.
no, thats not what i meant (and if it sounded that way im sorry, wrong choice of words). of course you're going to be in a mess, but i dont know if we can apply human standards to superman... he's taken blows from doomsday and not been mangled, and doomsday is pretty f*ckin strong...
ok superficial was the wrong word... it did hurt him, but it wasnt a stabbing, it grazed him (causing damage no doubt), and more than anything (imo), it looked to me as if a state of shock came over him... i'm not saying there was no damage, just that he healed pretty quickly...
of course it would, and it was crap writing, BUT, and i said this already, i dont see how we can apply our standards to superman (or for that matter thor). of course he'd have more than a bloody lip, but as for his face being completely smashed, i'd have to disagree, as he's taken some pretty heavy hits before... maybe its PIS, maybe not, but the guy is as tough as they come (just like thor).
i didnt, and i am...
i wasnt referring to the fight much if at all... i've never read it so i cant use it as a base of comparison, only the scans ive seen... they may have ludicrous elements, but i have seen alot worse...
i recall superman taking shazam's lighting several times in a row and surviving, even to the point of continuing the fight... magic is a weakness, but its not an off-switch either...
again, im not sayin the hammer only busting his lip is valid...
Doomsday's fists weren't magic. I know he's taken pretty fierce blows, and in terms of pure raw power, he's taken worse than Mjolnir. But Mjolnir is magical and Superman has a weakness to magic. Hence, Mjolnir's effectiveness in damaging Superman is enhanced.
The panels are clear, she literally sliced his throat open. Just grazing his neck would never stop bloodlusted Superman in his tracks. I do agree that he healed quickly. But initially the full damage was done. And that's the point. In JLA/Avengers, no real damage was done initially, just a mere bloody lip. What the hell? I know a Mjolnir strike won't kill him in one shot, but if we are to argue consistency, he ought to have suffered a broken and bloody nose, maybe a few missing teeth, swelling over his eye, etc. Then several moments later, his advanced healing kicks in. That would be consistent with 'Sacrifice.' But obviously we see nothing of the sort happening.
You ought to end this part with "... and it was crappy writing..." Yes, Superman has taken heavy hits, but as I responded above, this isn't just another heavy hit. This is a heavy hit backed by magic. Superman is tough as hell and would probably take a Mjolnir shot better than Thor himself... if he didn't have a weakness to magic. But he does, and there's no evidence showing that Superman's weakness to magic is ever a factor in measuring how much a Mjolnir strike would hurt him. As it is depicted, it hurts him no more than it would hurt Gladiator... which curiously makes his susceptibility and weakness to magic utterly ignored.
I would argue that Superman could take a few body blows from Mjolnir and still fight. I never argued a Mjolnir strike is a one-shot kill. But a full Mjolnir hammer chucking to the face does more than a mere busted lip when you're weak to magic. And if you agree that the busted lip is invalid and illogical, then we agree that the fight was clear PIS. Plot-Induced-Stupidity. It isn't just the bloody lip that is PIS. It's his catching the hammer barehanded that also makes no sense. Would you ever volunteer to catch a swung hammer in your bare hand to stop it? Your hand's bones would be shattered to pieces.
Spiderman beats Firelord is utter PIS and nobody cites it for debating, because the fight utterly ignores Firelord's herald-level speed and durability. Here, the JLA/Avengers fight is utter PIS and should not be cited for debating, because the fight utterly and singularly ignores Superman's weakness to magic.
Superman's weakness to magic is way over rated on this board. It's like people believe that if I cast a magical spell over a butterknife I'd be able to slice him just because its magical
Perhaps JL/Avengers was PIS, but perhaps Sacrifice was also PIS.
I would rather get hit in the face with a hammer than have my throat slashed there is a dfference. And BTW Supes throat was healed up quickly afterwords. The same goes go the Mjolnir shot he took. Sure it hurt him as did the lightning but Supes does have a healing factor. Superman took a blast from Etrigan and kept on fighting, took blasts from Shazams magical lightning and kept on fighting. Sure Superman does have a weakness to magic and it was shown in his fight with Thor. Superman was messed up as you can see. If Thor had a regular hammer and lightning attacks he would not have even noticed those assaults but being they were magical it was obvious in the fight they did.
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"I am not afraid of the dark the dark's afraid of me"
Well it did happen. Superman also caught Wonder Womans sword mid-swing with his palms in Infinite Crisis #1 I do believe. Is that magical? Or was that PIS again?
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"I am not afraid of the dark the dark's afraid of me"
KMC Community Forums
Dec 17th, 2006 04:44 AM
You think of this all by yourself?
