Each Link is a reincarnation of one before, with Skyward Sword Link being the very first. The OP doesn't specify which Link is used here, so I'm simply being flexible.
No, several Links have superhuman strength feats even without things like the Golden Gauntlets. Twilight Princess Link for instance is strong enough to toss Dangoro around for instance--and Dangoro certainly weighs a few dozens tons at the very least. Skyward Sword Link as well had some strength feats as well--but I can't quite recall them exactly at the moment.
Town busting is not impressive at all compared to Ganon's destruction feats.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Just going to respond to this.
Town destroying isn't really all powerful, nor is it all that significant next to the master sword which while depowered can freeze (at least) an entire country in time indefinitely.
Ganon, the main foe bested by said sword routinely accomplishes things on that scale, freezing Zora's domain twice, shattering an island (with the bulk of his power sealed away, he also managed to turn off the sun under these conditions) overlapping an entire country in twilight with a stated fraction of his power.
The sword also protects Link from things that aren't evil at all, like the Twilight realm, which while dark is not evil. Dark=/=Evil being a big theme in TP.
The sword at it's full power is a direct failsafe against the combined triforce and rivals it in power. In SS we see it is blessed by the three goddesses who created the world after having been created by a fourth.
It does not **** around, good sir.
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Link has never been able to show himself Freezing Time with the Master Sword to my knowledge so that would render your point irrelevant. Sure, it has inherent power, but that power doesn't translate to it's user being able to counteract stealing your soul (something that HAS been shown to be used by its user in game. )
Not to mention, I still haven't seen anything impressive enough to counteract something that literally BFR's you.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
If my point were that "Link stops time for the win", it isn't.
My point is the sword is on a significantly higher scale than Soul Eater from what has been shown to me so far, and as such will just tell said BFR to stfu. Unless there's something you haven't shown me yet?
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Based on what exactly? The Sword can be transported. We've seen it in Link to the Past. We don't know where the soul eater takes its enemies but we know it doesn't fail to do so on anything. All we have is your opinion that the Master Sword is greater than something that makes up part of a universe because you think it's a higher scale. This coming from someone who hasn't played 1 of the games they're arguing against.
Again, prove to me that the Sword would not be sucked up against something that sucks everything. Failing that, prove that Link wouldn't get sucked up leaving the sword behind. We know that a simple blob can take his sword away from him.
Based on what? I've never seen proof that either is faster.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Backed by feats I've mentioned. Like freezing time on at least a national scale in a weakened state, being a direct failsafe to the triforce, ect.
And I formed this opinion by weighing what I know against what you've told me. You've told me nothing that suggests Soul Eater could overcome the protection the sword gives Link.
Why would it suddenly stop protecting him and allow him to be taken away? That doesn't make sense.
And no, a blob has never taken the master sword from him, just his shield.
Essentially it's as follows.
-The sword protects Link.
-Feats so far provided for said sword are greater than feats provided for the rune.
-Therefore, I conclude the sword will overcome the rune, rather than vice versa.
-If you believe the rune can overcome the sword, state why.
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
What feats have you mentioned? That the sword froze things while not in possession by anyone? Or that it beats Ganon (which seems to be the point of the sword in the first place)?
I guess essentially what I'm getting at seems to be in direct conflict with your opinion.
For me it's:
-Sword Protects Link
-Soul Eater has never failed because it is the embodiment of Life & Death
-Feats in-game prove that Soul Eater has never failed (Save Bosses for the sake of not making the game too easy)
-Therefore, I conclude that the Sword does not overcome the rune, rather than Vice Versa.
I have yet to see a feat do something that directly contradicts transportation to another Dimension/Realm/Livelihood.
Does anyone have a video that shows Ganon shattering an island? That seems to be something akin to what the True Runes are capable of and I'd like to see it in action to gauge it.
Ok, so there has been a lot of good information from both sides, but there seems to be several issue that I have in regards to the Master Sword's power: it has a very plot device-like quality to it, similar to pre-crisis Superman or Sailor Moon. Zelda has a very slap dash timeline and none of the games were written in true continuity to one another (by that I mean none of the games were written with a logical overarching timeline in mind), as described in AVGN's Chronically Confused about The Legend of Zelda. Another issue is that unlike Mario, there is no one Link; every one or two games has a new Link, so compared to Tir who has experience leading an army, fighting a revolutionary war and defeating an empire, Link (who is usually a random country bumpkin prior to the game's start) has little combat experience. Since the games don't say how much time passes during the course of the game, we can only assume that Link has like maybe 50 hours or so worth of true combat experience. Even ignoring the powers of the Soul Eater, Tir should be able to win with shear melee skill. This experience issue also plays into Link's use of the sword: people are assuming that Link somehow knows how to use all of the Master Swords plot device powers which change from game to game. For example, it was mentioned that the MS could freeze time. The only time I saw it do that was in Wind Waker, and Link wasn't the one who did it. He DID turn Ganon into stone at the end, but he never showed any ability to use time freezing powers during that (or any other Zelda that I've played).
Another thing that bothers me is that people keep bringing up the whole "Link beats Ganon who is way more powerful", but as Blight mentioned several times, that isn't much of feat when Ganon is specifically weak to the sword. That's like saying that Lex Luthor is more powerful than Superman because be can use Krytonite. There are simply too many variables in the extremely non-canon story telling in Zelda to say anything for an absolute certainty compared to Suikoden which has a much more structured continuity (excluding the portable games which are alternate reality).
Anyway, I think Tir could win with or without Soul Eater simply because he's a much more experience fighter and as someone who ISN'T Ganon, he isn't any more weak to the master sword than anyone else.
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
Nobody claimed Link would use the sword to stop time, that was an illustration of the sword's power.
Feats > No feats.
By feats, the sword is more powerful, so until a feat of power is given for the rune, it cannot BFR Link. Simple.
If we want to debate the melee fight, that's something else entirely, but Link has some pretty significant feats for physical prowess as well that you need to be aware of if you choose to debate that route.
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
"If we want to debate the melee fight, that's something else entirely, but Link has some pretty significant feats for physical prowess as well that you need to be aware of if you choose to debate that route."
You're gonna have to point those out to me because I've played all but one Zelda (not counting those awful CD-i games) and haven't noticed any melee feats out of any of the Links. The closest I'd call a feat would be the final fight in Wind Waker (which was actually pretty rad), but it was a gameplay fight and not a cutscene and as cool as it was, it didn't represent Link as being anything beyond and average swordsman (who mostly just reacts and counters). Most Links have no prior combat training before the game and their fighting style boils down to just waving their krytonite sword at the nearest guy who is automatically weak to it. All of the Links start off from a humble background, one was even a freaking train conductor for crying out loud, and have no real world fighting experience. A few Links have some training with the local "sword master", but since the master's abilities aren't quantified, we have no way of knowing how strong these said masters are (it can be assumed their skill is only being measured against the other male villagers, which isn't saying much) and thus how skilled Link is in comparison. And keep in mind, since Link is the pupil, so he is technically weaker than the master by definition. Tir on the other hand was raised by a person who is noted as the best warrior in their military and has been trained for many years prior to the game. Aside from all the regular combat in the game, Tir also leads an entire army in various full military battles and ultimately defeats his dad, the guy who was supposed to be the best. This means that Tir is not only as good as his quantified father, but actually better.
Another thing about Link is his boss fights. Outside of Ganon, who we've established is automatically weak to Link, how many bosses has Link beaten with just the sword? None outside of the NES games to my knowledge, most of the bosses are immune to damage until you reveal their weak spot using the item that was conveniently located in the same building. You can swing the almighty Master Sword all you want, but it won't do anything until their obvious weak spot is exposed. Now granted this is a gameplay thing, but since there are no story boss fights we have to assume that if this were a book or movie, Link would still need to do this. My point is that Link doesn't really rely on bare combat, he relies on using obvious exploitable weakness. That doesn't make him a badass warrior, it makes him kind of an ******* actually, but at the vary least any strapping young man could beat most of his enemies the same way (except Ganon since as stated you need the Master Sword to hurt him). You can't cheese enemies to death in Suikoden, meaning that all of Tir's victories were earned in fair combat.
Skyward Sword Link, the very first Link, who had no training other than what he learned from his village folk, soloed an army of demons conjured up by Ghirahim. And Ghirahim conjured them up specifically with the idea that he knew they would not stand a chance.
He specifically told them that they were probably going to die against Link, and that they were meant to be nothing but a diversion for time.
Then when Link finally reaches Ghirahim, Ghirahim curses Link for 'being too fast', because the demons did not grant him enough time to complete the ritual.
Tir's best solo combat feats in comparison? Beating a featless Qwanda and his father in seperate duels.
Wait, your feat for link is that he beat a bunch of creatures who were summoned to be cannon fodder faster than expected? Some feat. And some army of demons.
Here is the biggest problem though (aside from not stating how Link defeats these enemies or posting anything to illustrate your point), you're assuming that either there is only one Link and he has the feats from every game, or this is against Skyward Link (which is the only Zelda I haven't played BTW) specifically. It's hard to say what's what when we don't even know who Tir is fighting. That aside, until I see this supposed epic monster Dynasty Warrior fight, I don't see any Link fights that put any of the Links at Tir's combat level.
"Wait, your feat for link is that he beat a bunch of creatures who were summoned to be cannon fodder faster than expected? Some feat. And some army of demons."
Gender: Male Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse
It's not like those same demons nearly eradicated the entire hylian race to the extent that the last living hylians were all herded onto a single floating island or anything.
Yes, they were cannon fodder... Against Link.
Edit: And let me be clear here. This is just Link working with his Charles Atlas Superpower, he doesn't even have the ToC in this game.
Every Link is super human, and backs that with feats. Tossing giants made of rock around, chucking pillars, sword fighting super-human opponents, lifting and moving heavy shit, ect.
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The moon and stars aren't just shades of lead
But you wouldn't know as you rest your head.
Last edited by ScreamPaste on May 31st, 2012 at 01:46 AM
No, my feat for Link is that an army of demon swordsmen, archers, grenadiers, giant pikemen, and undead dual sword wielding skeletons were expected to do no better against Link than be an adequate stall for time--and in the end, they were even less than adequate at that.
Please don't use usless buzzwords in order to discredit something. Afterall, what does that say about Tir, who has far less than even that?
edit: one more thing, about 'quantifying' skill. You can't. You can only quantify reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, and general speed--things that are generally expected to form skill. Now, is Qwanda Rossman or Tir's dad quantifiable in any of those respects? No. Absolutely not. Not even with statements. So there is no way of gauging their skill either is there?
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Last edited by CosmicComet on May 31st, 2012 at 01:45 AM
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May 30th, 2012 08:36 PM
Unless there's something you haven't shown me yet?
