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Sephiroth and Seymour vs Kefka and Kuja
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leonheartmm
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and AGAIN, ultima destroyed all of terra, not just the surface, terra stops existing as a planet after that{the surface was also an inferno in the cutscene}, it can no longer be reached by even the dimensional gate as there is NUTHING there, the only remnant of terra is the ultima weapon, which is found at the place in the ocean where terra portal used to be, the whol planet, btw, is als crystalline. the entire red life force of the PLANET terra disappears after that, which was facilitating the mist process by garland on the main planet, gaia, before. terra also stops appearing as the red planet in the coming cutscenes when gaia is shown from space, but most importantly, the entirety of terra as a planet and its events can now be seen in memoria, and memoria only contains thigns which are PASSED, as in destroyed/lost to time. that wudnt be possible if terra still existed.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 01:25 AM
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Terryc250
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
can he stop ultima which easily detroyed an entire planet with an advanced civilisation{obliterated an entire planet}, as well as destroyed the crystal from which creation itself emenated? neither bahamut's attack{which is much much MUCH bigger than any bahamut attack in ff-7 or advent children} nor even the attack of the INVINCIBLE{which killed alenxander and destroyed the entire kingdom of alexandria as well as garnet's original homeworld} cud kill HUMAN kuja. his durability along with all his other stats are TITANICALLY enhanced in trance form. tell me a SINGLE thing any1 in ff-7 can do to even remotely harm trance kuja. heck, kuja even teleported team zidane from BEYOND creation itself back to the real world, as well as teleporting himself between planetss. heck he opened the gate to memoria.

simply, those two are not in the same league. no matter how much u like sephiroth.


Yes, because he would stop it before it gets to that level of world wrecking, it wasn't fast he charge shot after shot, Sephiroth stopped the single attack of Holy in one go, advance civilization does not mean that everything is more durable, a PSP slim is not more durable then a PSP fat lol, an Iphone is not more durable then those old big cellphones.

Thats overhyped, Bahamuts attack weren't direct hits, half of them missed and one of them landed in front of him not directly hitting him, and he escaped from the aftermath of the burning. Cloud took an actual direct hit and went right through a blast without a scratch on him, yet Sephiroth can casually cut him with his sword, Sephiroth will beable to cut Kuja.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 01:31 AM
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Terryc250
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and AGAIN, ultima destroyed all of terra, not just the surface, terra stops existing as a planet after that{the surface was also an inferno in the cutscene}, it can no longer be reached by even the dimensional gate as there is NUTHING there, the only remnant of terra is the ultima weapon, which is found at the place in the ocean where terra portal used to be, the whol planet, btw, is als crystalline. the entire red life force of the PLANET terra disappears after that, which was facilitating the mist process by garland on the main planet, gaia, before. terra also stops appearing as the red planet in the coming cutscenes when gaia is shown from space, but most importantly, the entirety of terra as a planet and its events can now be seen in memoria, and memoria only contains thigns which are PASSED, as in destroyed/lost to time. that wudnt be possible if terra still existed.


Could be because the portal is destroyed with everything else on the surface of Terra?

Has terra ever been shown in from space in a cutscene? Could be the angle, etc,

Memoria is created from MEMORIES, not jsut everything that is destroyed

Garland's Memory:
Memoria... A place of memories.
Zidane:
Memories...?
Garland's Memory:
Yes, your memories brought forth this place...

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 01:48 AM
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leonheartmm
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sephiroth can not stop ultima in his dream, ultima is far beyond anything seen in ff-7 , FACT.

advance civilisation means advance architecture though. ur examples dont apply here. and what do bahamut's attacks mean{which destroyed the entire white dragon army and were gonna destroy alexandira} when compared to the attack of the invincible which human kuja clearly DID take and survive???{remember the one that killed alexander}.

again, sephiroth can not DREAM to cut kuja terry. stop debating because u like sephiroth and start looking at feats.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 01:50 AM
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leonheartmm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Terryc250
Could be because the portal is destroyed with everything else on the surface of Terra?

Has terra ever been shown in from space in a cutscene? Could be the angle, etc,

Memoria is created from MEMORIES, not jsut everything that is destroyed

Garland's Memory:
Memoria... A place of memories.
Zidane:
Memories...?
Garland's Memory:
Yes, your memories brought forth this place...


the portal isnt PHYSICAL. the entire reality that was terra , was destroyed so there is no portal to take u anywhere, the ultima weapon is the remnant from the blue crystal planet.

yes it has, as the red planet against gaia, the blue planet, specially when the colours were changing due to the soul mist. its also clearly shown in that place where u cant use magic and first fight ark.

did you forget the part where team zidane says that no1 can REMEMBER the places being actually their OWN memories, which is explained by it being the memories of the UNIVERSE. nuthign from the present exists in memoria, only things from the past do and terra is from the past at that point. memoria was a way to go further and further into the past by the memories of the universe which is WHY at the end, u end up at the crystal of creation, the birth of the universe{or did u think zidane and team actually had MEMORIES of the creation event?}
kuja wins.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 01:56 AM
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NemeBro
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Terryc250
Which what Bugenhagen applied could mean everything on the planet, everything could be gone, its capable of doing the same thing to Terra as what Ultima did. Wrecking all the buildings and the surface of the planet
Bugenhagen is a fallible character.

And Ultima destroyed all of Terra.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 01:57 AM
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Terryc250
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the portal isnt PHYSICAL. the entire reality that was terra , was destroyed so there is no portal to take u anywhere, the ultima weapon is the remnant from the blue crystal planet.

yes it has, as the red planet against gaia, the blue planet, specially when the colours were changing due to the soul mist. its also clearly shown in that place where u cant use magic and first fight ark.

did you forget the part where team zidane says that no1 can REMEMBER the places being actually their OWN memories, which is explained by it being the memories of the UNIVERSE. nuthign from the present exists in memoria, only things from the past do and terra is from the past at that point. memoria was a way to go further and further into the past by the memories of the universe which is WHY at the end, u end up at the crystal of creation, the birth of the universe{or did u think zidane and team actually had MEMORIES of the creation event?}
kuja wins.

Well obviously it can be destroyed physically somehow then, either way, surface being destroyed physically, or planet blowing up physically, in theory should harm a non-phsyical thing.

Yeah because they are memories from all life, but the bottom line is, they are just memories, and their is no real evidence that it only shows things that are completely annihilated into nothingness. If its dead then it can be a memory, a dead destroyed planet floating in space can still have memories of when it was full of life.

quote:
sephiroth can not stop ultima in his dream, ultima is far beyond anything seen in ff-7 , FACT.

advance civilisation means advance architecture though. ur examples dont apply here. and what do bahamut's attacks mean{which destroyed the entire white dragon army and were gonna destroy alexandira} when compared to the attack of the invincible which human kuja clearly DID take and survive???{remember the one that killed alexander}.

again, sephiroth can not DREAM to cut kuja terry. stop debating because u like sephiroth and start looking at feats.

Not really, Ultima is on the same scale as Holy, Sephiroth stopped Holy in one single go, Kuja had to charge and go shot after shot, before it was planet wrecking, Sephiroth would stop Kuja before that.

Again he didn't take direct hits. You're talking like he took the direct hits and stayed for the aftermath and survived it all, when all he did was make it through the explosions and escaped. It doesn't mean that his skin is durable enough to withstand Sephiroths sword.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 02:41 AM
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UltimaKuja
Kuja>Sephiroth Nuff Said

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Terryc250
... Deal with what? That Kuja can get to a crystal? Cool, i don't care.

Deal with the fact Kuja can create dimensions and teleport. Sephiroth couldn't do it if he tried.

quote:
Kuja only has more power output, thats it. But Sephiroth has stopped a power of the same scale, and its not like he is going to stand there and let him do it anyway.


A) Sephiroth stopped ONE attack of great power. Kuja can fire ATLEAST four in one go. Thats displayed in the cutscene.

B) Sephiroth stopped holy while it was in a bottleneck. Once it rose up it spread across the planet from the northern crater, could Sephiroth stop it then?

If yes, then you just proved Bugenhagen a lying noob of a guru.

quote:
Sephiroth has taken over the source of the planet, took control of the Jenova entity, stopped a power that was capable of destroying everything on the planet with sheer will, restored himself after his body was destroyed a couple times, has Kuja done any of that? No.


Don't mean he has full access to it, if he did then Cloud has more power then the entire lifestream since he overcame Sephiroths power. PIS or not, it happened.

He had J-cells in him, I do believe thats why. Either way, Sephiroth Couldn't completely take over Cloud when he tried to make Cloud kill Aerith.

Sephiroth restored himself, but does that help him in this fight? No?
Thats right. The only reason to bring this up is if you are accepting that he will need it.

Okay, Destroying the source of all life>taking over the source of a planet.
Kuja took control of Bahamut, and took over a massive barrier and forced it to come down.

quote:

Huh? It doesn't bother me actually, because like i said, how powerful Sephiroth was as a human is not relevent to this fight, because we're talking Sephiroth AFTER he gains his powers.


Just like we are talking about Kuja AFTER he gains his trance powers.


quote:

Its just as failed as you claiming Cloud>Sephiroth.
No you didn't say Zidane>Kuja, i did. Just like how you said Cloud>Sephiroth.


Okay, how many times has Sephiroth died at the hands of Cloud?

Now.

How many times has Kuja died at the hands of Zidane? None? K.

Seeing a difference yet? *Waits for Terry to make an excuse on Sephiroths behalf*

quote:
They have about the same level of feats.

So Yuffie has had someone try and destroy her soul(Garland) and survive? No? K.

Yuffie can trance and use attacks like Grandlethal? No? K.

quote:
Sorry but Kuja cant do anything to Sephiroth.


Sorry, you can't prove that Sephiroth can defend against being teleported.
Sorry, you can't prove Sephiroth can defend against four ultimas, which Kuja can do in one go.
Hell, Kuja could open a dimension AROUND sephiroth and close it with Sephiroth trapped in side. Sephiroth has a defense against that? No? K.


quote:
There's a big difference between something that is alive and an object.


Yes, that REALLY makes the MEMORY different somehow. Kuja is STATED to be able to make a memory real, no limitation has been imposed on this ability.

quote:
I can claim he didn't do it instantly because like i said, if he can do it on a whim and instantly why doesn't he just create a bunch of himselves form zidanes memory,

Anyone who had played AND understood FFIX would know the answer to this. Kuja believes himself superior to everyone and everything. Why would he want another of himself?

On a more realistic note, how does choosing not to create himself from Zidanes memory PROVE he can't do it instantly? It don't? K.

quote:
or create zidanes from daggars memory, etc. So it seems like he cannot do it this easily now does it?


Because he HATES Zidane? Thats the same as saying Sephiroth can't kill humans easily because he didn't kill Cloud straight away.

quote:
Kuja died, end of story, unless you can prove he survived, with some evidence then you have no point.

My point is based on his level of durability.
Bahamut's Megaflare.
Invincible's weapon. (The most powerful weapon in the game)
The beating he let Zidane give him.
The destruction of Terra. (He is totally unharmed)
Point blank Ultima.
1000foot fall.

quote:
Even if he did somehow survive which it never showed him surviving, it would only be because Zidane saved him.


No, it would be because Kuja is more durable then you can admit.
Even IF Zidane needed to help Kuja, it don't change the fact that Kuja>Sephiroth.


quote:
Oh so Garland really did die?
As far as his body is concerned, yes.

quote:
Talking to someone spiritually does not mean he's still alive, it happens all the time in fiction.

Opinion. Not Fact.

quote:

Garalnd did die, he's talking spiritually, but he cannot do any motives or plans against anyone.


Like you said before, it took Sephiroth 5 years to come back.
Besides, I have already proven that Kuja is superior to Garland in terms of will power.

quote:
Thats the question I'm asking you, "When has Kuja ever teleported someone against their will"?


He teleported Zidane and his friends while they was in another dimension.....While he was close to death.

They weren't expecting it.
They didn't ask for it.
Since they didn't have a clue about it, it would be a natural response to resist it.

quote:
Sephiroth didn't see them as a threat, he carried on with his business and just left Jenova to fight them, and it was the entire party there.

Prison Cells? At the beginning of the game? He probably didn't even know they were there.


My point is that Sephiroth could of killed them easily before the final battle.
You can't use the fact Kuja didn't kill them before his final battle as an excuse he can't do something.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 05:06 PM
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UltimaKuja
Kuja>Sephiroth Nuff Said

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Terryc250
advance civilization does not mean that everything is more durable, a PSP slim is not more durable then a PSP fat lol, an Iphone is not more durable then those old big cellphones.


A 21th century home ain't more durable then a 14th century home? Right.

quote:
Thats overhyped, Bahamuts attack weren't direct hits, half of them missed and one of them landed in front of him not directly hitting him, and he escaped from the aftermath of the burning.


Three are on target. One lands JUST in front of him. The other two are direct hits.

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quote:
Cloud took an actual direct hit and went right through a blast without a scratch on him, yet Sephiroth can casually cut him with his sword, Sephiroth will beable to cut Kuja.


Cloud survived by going through it in midair WITH EVERYONE ELSES HELP. Kuja survives an explosion of 2-3 (depending on how you see it) megaflares. Its SO completely different that im laughing.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 05:20 PM
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leonheartmm
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the only reason kuja died was because garland had designed him to genetically die at age 16. he survived the onslaught led on him by team zidane.

if the location is gone, the portal to the location also goes away, just accept it, terra was totally obliterated. they are memories fromt the entire universe and it only remember what doesnt exist anymore, name me a single thing in memoria which still existed in the game.

actually no. holy is on the same scale as holy. doomsday is on a bigger scale than holy, madeen and ark are both on bigger scales than holy. ultima is a on a totally different scale. holy cudnt compare in the least. and again, HUMAN kuja survived a POINT BLANK firing from the invincible, which destroyed the kingdom of alexandria{and garnet's home world}, and killed the eidolon alexander{who had just killed bahamut}. his durability is not up for questionaing. TRANCE kuja is stronger than kuja by orders of MAGNITUDE. masamune isnt gonna do crap to him.

Old Post Oct 21st, 2008 08:23 PM
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UltimaKuja
Kuja>Sephiroth Nuff Said

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the only reason kuja died was because garland had designed him to genetically die at age 16. he survived the onslaught led on him by team zidane.


Ummm... Kuja is 24 years old.

Garland: "I constructed the Genomes to be vessels for the souls of Terra when they awaken. But 24 yours years ago, I gave life to a Genome that was very much like you. His will was too strong to make him into a proper vessel, and I even considered discarding him. But then I thought that I should put his strength to use. I sent that Genome as my servant, to disrupt the cycle of souls on Gaia. The one I sent to Gaia might also be called your brother... And his name is Kuja."

quote:
actually no. holy is on the same scale as holy. doomsday is on a bigger scale than holy, madeen and ark are both on bigger scales than holy. ultima is a on a totally different scale.


Doomsday (FFIX)



Ark (FFIX)



Madeen (FFIX)



All three are gameplay moves, like supernova.
Only Holy and Ultima are relevant when it comes to comparisons.

quote:
and again, HUMAN kuja survived a POINT BLANK firing from the invincible, which destroyed the kingdom of alexandria{and garnet's home world},


Kuja ain't human, he's a genome.
The invincible destroyed Garnet's home village, not world.

quote:
his durability is not up for questionaing. TRANCE kuja is stronger than kuja by orders of MAGNITUDE. masamune isnt gonna do crap to him.


I would argue that Sephiroth's blade beam style attacks would be useless.

His psychical sword would be able to injure Kuja, if he was caught off-guard.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 12:56 AM
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NemeBro
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Actually, Leon was referring to Garnet's original home world, the one her mother took her from on a little rowboat, and Invincible indeed did destroy that.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 12:59 AM
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UltimaKuja
Kuja>Sephiroth Nuff Said

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I believe Garnat came from Mari-Safi, thats the village Garland destroyed with the invincible.

Mari-Safi is located on Gaia, and is where you first encounter Amarant.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 01:11 AM
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NemeBro
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Hm. You may be right. God knows it has been years since I played FFIX.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 02:14 AM
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UltimaKuja
Kuja>Sephiroth Nuff Said

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Yeah, I am.

Garland: "In his bid to defy me, Kuja tried to acquire Alexander... An incident, 10 years ago, started everything... I feared Gaia's eidolons more than anything... However, I decided to deal with them before they became a major problem... Zidane, what you just saw was from your memory, and not Garnet's."

Zidane: "What? I don't remember ever being in a storm at sea!"

Just what planet did you think she was from anyway? o.o


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 03:19 AM
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4RX
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Seymour's hairstyle solos.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 04:42 AM
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leonheartmm
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well. sorry i mixed up kuja and zidane, after age 16 zidane wud develop stronger powers than kuja. however, it is a FACT that kuja WAS indeed dying because of the genes put inside him by garland, that is why he was going to TAKE existance with him. thats all i was trying to say, the reason he DIES in the end inside the lifa tree with zidane is not because of damage sustained, but because of his genes. just making an argument again "i dont care, kuja died while sephiroth lived"

Old Post Oct 23rd, 2008 06:30 AM
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UltimaKuja
Kuja>Sephiroth Nuff Said

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
after age 16 zidane wud develop stronger powers than kuja.

Thats how it was going to go, correct.
However, Trance Kuja's power is way above any power Zidane was going to get.

quote:
however, it is a FACT that kuja WAS indeed dying because of the genes put inside him by garland, that is why he was going to TAKE existance with him.

I was under the impression that one of two things would happen;

A) A delayed spell close to what Garland used on Zidane, on Terra, would be activated.
B) He would die simply because it was the end of his lifespan, which would be shorter then a humans.

Its open for debate, but I don't think Garland used biogenics.

quote:
Originally posted by 4RX
Seymour's hairstyle solos.


Thats a conversation stopper, if ever I heard one.


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Old Post Oct 23rd, 2008 10:33 AM
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leonheartmm
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erm no. normal zidane would surpass normal kuja. similarly, trance zidane{after age 16} wud surpass trance kuja{infact, trance zidane has the strongest spells/power in the entire game, even though its gameplay, but still}. my point, zidane is the potential superior in both.

garland used biogenics to create both of them, the life process of terran clones has never shown to have much to do with SPELLS since terra is a society based almost exclusively in science/arcane science.

and seymore's hairstyles pales in comparison to kuja's orange/red duck feather hair.

Old Post Oct 23rd, 2008 05:44 PM
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Pyron_Knight
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quote:
erm no. normal zidane would surpass normal kuja. similarly, trance zidane{after age 16} wud surpass trance kuja{infact, trance zidane has the strongest spells/power in the entire game, even though its gameplay, but still}. my point, zidane is the potential superior in both.


This is only theoretical. Kuja's trance for starters is not a normal one. It's augmented and "permanent" thanks to other souls.


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Old Post Oct 24th, 2008 03:55 AM
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