if you go to gamespot and search for the star wars force unleashed marathon you can see the whole vader stage ( i can't post it cause am to new) for anyone that wants to see it.
I'm amused at how similar the reactions to Enyalus's post are to the ones that Lightsnake was met with two and a half years ago. Personally? I thought it was an excellent post, although I believe that any death of Palpatine's before Return of the Jedi was retconned by Chee.
Then again, I know very little about anything related to DE, so I could be missing a few things. But so far? Very nice.
And I don't think it should be hard managing that sub-argument and Vader's analysis at the same time.
Right. Well, let's pretend that you could actually try and refute his argument. Other than the single missed point about RotJ Sidious - which is probably the least important segment of the entire thing - what "serious" flaws did you find?
Firstly, it is my sad duty to inform you that the Ultimate Visual Guide confirms that Palpatine "does not reveal himself immediately but studies the dark side to become more powerful." Though you have demonstrated a resolve to challenge any and all statements regarding "power," this one is really set in stone. For the record, that part of your argument was something I was hoping you could prove, since it would satisfy the impact of the prophecy of the Chosen One.
Regarding the 'weakness' of Palpatine's clones being a sign of inferiority, you've managed to prove only that Palpatine's clone bodies do not have the same resilience as his natural one. You have not, however, proven that Palpatine's mastery of the Force or overall state of combat is weaker or even the same. In fact, that statement from the Ultimate Visual Guide seems to nail the coffin shut regarding the idea that Palpatine is "weaker" overall. The only thing I can objectively state is weaker about Palpatine is his impact on the Force -- but even then, the omniscient narrator refers to him as a 'dark side nexus.' Moreover, understand that Leland Chee confirmed that Palpatine was lying to Skywalker; his death at the Battle of Endor was the first one.
Regarding the capabilities of the reborn Emperor in combat, where have you proven that Palpatine's clone bodies will tire more? The fact that they age quicker than his natural body due to the potency of the dark side within him does not mean that he'll be reduced to a winded, gasping heap. Moreover, you forget: Palpatine can and will draw heavily upon the Force to compensate for whatever physical handicaps he may or may not possess. Fatigue during battle isn't likely; fatigue after battle, however, maybe.
Regarding the Force Storms and Palpatine's control over them, what are you trying to prove? That the Force Storms aren't Palpatine's raw power manifested, like an explosion of telekinesis or an instinctive lash of Force lightning? Well, duh. We've known that from day one. But it doesn't change the fact that it is the most destructive Force technique in existence, and Palpatine remains the only Force sensitive in the mythos to master it. As far as the control is concerned, since when does lacking perfect control indicate a lack of control all together? Palpatine has failed once to control a Force Storm: when he was assaulted by the combined power of Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa Solo, and her unborn child. Your insinuations that the Emperor will somehow screw one up are preposterous; he manages to generate one without hesitation nor problem after suffering a defeat in lightsaber combat and having his hand hacked off.
Regarding the destructive power of Force Storms, they can disintegrate fleets of ships and tear the surfaces off worlds according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook. That it didn't harm Skywalker isn't a detriment, since Palpatine's intention was to transport Skywalker off of Coruscant and displayed the ability to deposit him within a Lictor-class dungeon ship suggests remarkable control over the Storm itself.
Regarding the powers afforded to the Emperor by Byss, let me remind you that Palpatine himself is responsible for the saturation of dark side energies on the planet. Palpatine, despite the fact that he remained secluded on Coruscant, managed to "transform it into the one of the strongest dark side sites in the entire galaxy" and used the Force to not only leech off of its denizens to increase his vitality, but also to "break their wills" and "enslave them." All of the energies present on Byss come from Palpatine himself. Nothing and no one else.
Not really, no. Lightsnake was bashed, beaten, mocked, and insulted for many, many months by people too ignorant to accept a new method (a better method, really) of thinking. He came and helped show that the old ways were ridiculously flawed and that his alternative was much greater. Enyalus, here, has not suffered that abuse by the rest of us. Nor will he. No one here has "reacted" like Janus and co. did -- Traya, as I recall, suggested that he commit suicide (interesting, since it turns up that she was actually a man pretending to be a woman; in layman's terms: he/she/it is extraordinarily pathetic) -- and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't compare us to them.
As far as his post is concerned, I sympathize with his premise: proving the reborn Emperor to be weaker than before his death would satisfy the prophecy of the Chosen One and make Anakin's sacrifice even greater. The problem is that most of his major premises are incredibly flawed. The post itself was, however, a sign of a deep intellect, though it needs a great deal of polish.
This is absolutely false and I will happily show you why.
Enyalus, you are aware that in the Complete Visual Guide, it states that Palpatine has grown more powerful than ever?
Easily explainable:
1. Clones are not as powerful as actual flesh. Palpatine has become, since his original body's death, more spirit than person if we are to believe the Emperor's Pawns. His power is so great that mere flesh cannot hold it and as clones are weaker than normal bodies, they will decay faster.
For starters, he needs the body of a Skywalker to actually remain in and won't decay as quickly. When he was in Jeng Droga's body, except for driving Droga insane, Palpatine was fine. Not only that, but Palpatine was able to reanimate Droga's broken body and make his way to Byss...as we see from Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End, Palpatine's clones can wither in an extremely short time.
As we know from Path of Destruction, Freedon Nadd's powers caused his body to wither as well. There is nothing unusual about this. Palpatine's great power coupled with the inferiority of synthetic flesh is what leads to faster degeneration
En, you're ignoring that the clone isn't Palpatine. Palpatine by this point, again is a spirit and when he leaves the clone, it disintegrates. As we know from Jeng Droga, this doesn't happen to normal beings.
Conclusion: clone bodies, especially mass-produced ones are not as powerful
The midichlorian count of each clone is immaterial. As stated before, Palpatine has been described as 'more powerful than ever' by Dark Empire, his SPIRIT is what is important now, not the clones. They are merely placeholders.
Leland Chee confirmed Palpatine was lying here. Thanks to what he gleaned later, though, Palpatine has surpassed flesh. Without anchorage to a specific point, no other Sith has shown the ability to die and then not fly immediately to chaos
Answered already
Already stated. The only time Palpatine was even resembling weak was Empire's End
Don't be ludicrous. It is directly stated Palpatine is more powerful than ever and ROTJ was the first time he died. Nothing-not a thing- indicates that the clones make him weaker when he says that to him, flesh is basically a suit he wears to persist in the world.
In close combat, Palpaitne has all his exceptional abilities-and considering Lucas said only Mace and Yoda can compete with him, that's pretty exceptional.
In Dark Empire, his superior power allows him to fight to far faster and greater degrees to empower himself. his younger body-and he fights when his body is still at the physical age of later teens, it's going to have more stamina and speed than his usual elderly, decaying form.
This makes what sense? His bodies don't decay in matters of seconds. When he fights, and fights don't last days, it will be in a strong, youthful figure. Your premise on his lower power and force potential is faulty from the start as I've pointed out
He is mocking her. And?
Again...mocking.
When has a saber's age been of any issue? In fact, since when do Lightsabers decay? At all? In fact, Exar Kun badly wanted a cache of Ancient Lightsabers for his new Sith Order...what's the point if old sabers are pointedly useless? They even still work just as well as any new Saber 4000 years later!
[Qupte]
Personally I find Palpatine saying that line hypocritical and downright hilarious (seeing as he was about to die again and looked incredibly old and feeble).[/Quote]
Err....'just about to die again?' Well, yes, if you consider that he knew Luke was going to turn on him
We have seen sabers that are 29,000 years old perform as well as ANY function. Jedi built these things to last. 10,000 years should be NOTHING
Ok, if an original, 25,000 year old saber works with no problems, I'm seeing no reason to believe there'd be issues with a 10,000 year old one
Why would she not? People like Bane can rip through powerful force fields like paper...why would a more powerful Sith be incapable of tearing through a less powerful Jedi's?
force crush? he flicks a finger, he doesn't clench a fist. The inferior nature of the weapon should hardly matter, either, all things considered.
This technique hasn't been demonstrated before or since.
En, the thing is pretty darn big. It's a unit about as big to crush a man's skull
The thing is visibly disintegrating in the panel, En. That he shrugs it off prior to this is irrelevant
Ok, I'm finding it hard to imagine your point about him not even noticing it a bit sketchy. A powerful Sith isn't going to have a problem noticing Leia trying that.
If he lets it strike him, then it also ruins your point about him being not as powerful since he's letting that much strike him right on the skull with NO ill effects.
And then we clearly see it disintegrating in the comic
This is getting incredibly biased, Enyalus. Not only are Force Storms known to require incredible power-anger and willpower ARE power in the Dark Side- but they are referred to as possibly the most powerful Dark Side technique known.
Pointed out above, you're firmly incorrect here.
Using the knowledge with anger and willpower-again...this correlates EXACTLY to Dark Side power- he's able to be that powerful. Do you think for a second just any old Sith can do this?
We know this. Force storms by nature are impossible to fully control.
Fact, though: Palpatine controls it enough to devour a fleet, rip the surface from a world and transport Luke all the way to Byss.
It's not erfect control. It's enough control though
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Regarding what Schwarz said about Vader's combat abilities and my rating of them - they've already been addressed, for the most part. If Kas'im's Force shields held without problem against Bane's Force wave that was able to explode and destroy the foundation to an entire temple, it stands to reason that Vader isn't going to be able to ragdoll him around or Force Choke him. And considering Vader has demonstrated extreme problems in defending himself against Jar'Kai - a form which Kas'im is an extraordinary master of - Vader would lose.
As for Darth Traya beating Darth Vader, not only does she possess more exotic techniques than him, such as Force Lightning and Force Sever, but she's also able to wield four lightsabers - which I already gave as my original reason for her winning - Vader doesn't have the speed to parry them all.
And in regard to Darth Nihilus, he was able to hold off for a substantial amount of time a powerful Jedi Knight, his own gifted Sith apprentice, and the leader and supreme general of the Mandalorian army (the same Mandalorians who kill Jedi for sport) - all with a lightsaber. Not only that, but while he was in a severely starved and severely weakened state. Imagine a healthy Nihilus. In comparison, Vader was almost killed by two separate bounty hunters, and a Tusken Raider. Also, let's not act like Nihilus actually needs a lightsaber to beat Vader.
I don't understand what your quote proves...?
They don't have the same resilience, true. They are more easily able to be ravaged by the Force. This means that, obviously, they are not as powerful. And the textual evidence I quoted supports this. They were getting farther and farther away from the original. The fact that he needed new genetic material that was strong in the Force. Because why? Obviously the clones no longer were [strong in the Force]. When we apply what we learned about midichlorians from The Phantom Menace and Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, we understand that midi-chlorians control how strong someone can be in the force, and the lower the midi-chlorian count, the less Force potential. His impact on the Force only confirms this further. Thus, he has less power.
I've already granted that he has more knowledge in his DE form, though. And the fact that he's able to invent a technique like the Force Storm means that yes, his Force mastery is greater. But clearly, he does not have the power to support it - as is evidenced by his decay and his desparate search for a template body with a high midi-chlorian count (something equal to or greater than what his original body possessed).
I wasn't aware of that interview or quote (and don't know where it would be found). But thank you, and others, for informing me of it. It definitely sounds like a retcon to me...as was said before, this a meeting of minds and ideas. I'm glad for the clarification.
I have shown that the clones are weaker in the Force and are a long ways off from his original body. As stated, this means less Force potential, which means less Force reserves, which means a lessened ability to draw upon the Force, et cetera. See my original post for more reasons, but yes, I believe I have proven it.
I'm happy to know that you knew this. Others may have not. I wanted to show that creating a Force Storm didn't depend so much on raw power level and potential as on knowledge and mastery of the Force. That was the point.
I acknowledge that it is the most destructive Force technique known. I think I even say so in my previous post. As for any insinuations on my part, I didn't mean it to sound so strong. I am merely mentioning that there is a possibility that Palpatine is not able to control all of his Force Storms, all of the time. This is backed up by the text.
"What he also admits in the Book of Anger is that he is not able to completely control such phenomena, once he has triggered their onset."
In my defense, I gave everyone a warning prior to that subpoint that it was more speculation than evidence. I still see no reason why a powerful Force user's shields would not hold.
It seems as though you're implying that all of the Dark Side energy and power on Byss is an extension of Palpatine and thus part of his power. This is untrue. Palpatine is responsible for the power of the Dark Side there. Palpatine is the cause of the Dark Side there. Just like the cause of Malachor's Dark power was the millions of people who were killed there, or the cause of Korriban's massive Dark Side power was because the Dark Lords of the Sith were burried there and traveled there for centuries. If what you seem to say about Byss were true (I hope that isn't what you're saying), then Coruscant and the Death Star, among others, would have radiated with Dark Side power...Coruscant even more so.
Let's not forget that Byss is where Palpatine had many, if not all of his Sith items, artifacts, holocrons, Dark Side adepts, Sith cloning and alchemy going on - all contributing to Byss' affinity for the Dark Side.
Sigh. Enyalus, now you're just nitpicking. The destructive power of a Force Storm depends firmly on how Palpatine wants it to behave. Either it can transport something or tear it to pieces
That is because its purpose is transported. If it's the same as in the end, when the Eclipse and Palpatine's body are gone, do you think Luke is going to be able to survive? He controls what he wants it to do
Are you joking? Palpaitne DIES in that Force Storm. Palpatine intentionally made the first to transport Luke and the last was made to KILL.
A powerful force user already died in one: Palpatine. The nature of it means that if Palpatine wants it to, it'll rip bodies apart.
Now this's getting a bit silly. Only because he's on Byss, he's being so powerful? I'll say it again, he's already referred to as more powerful, so the theory collapses from the start. He's able to do all this because he's as powerful as he is and notihng indicates Byss empowers him. Remember he's the one who turned Byss IN to a Dark Side world
Stop. RIGHT. Here.
We are firmly aware what happens here. BOTH Palpatine and Luke achieve firm states of oneness with the Light and Dark in their duel here. Panels does not correlate to time as the audiobook states Leia simply clears the Darkness from Luke's mind while the two battle and the fighting is all them. She is unable to even SEE them or feel anything but incredible emanations of power.
This state fades when Palpatine loses the duel. Between two titans of light and Dark, one wins.
Ok, this is what sort of annoys me:
1. DE issue 1 states Luke is incredibly powerful with the Force, as seen when he gestures and blows apart an army of freaking battle droids, a technique VERY difficult for even masters of old...and he's described as EVEN MORE skilled with the lightsaber. In Courtship of Princess Leia, he smacks aside a Nightsister's lightning-something she SPECIALIZED in and beheaded her. Luke's power is almost instinctual, but it's significant. So his knowledge base isn't incredible, and?
The narrator of DE takes care of this. Your point is debunked from issue 1 alone
As I've shown, you're absolutely incorrect
He is not invincible.
He is still more powerful, possibly by a good amount, than any other Force User in the series, save for Luke.
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Okay. Here we go with LS's stuff:
Because he can create Force Storms that are more destructive than anything else we've seen? Because he can cheat death now? Because he might be able to kill just about any one or anything from lightyears away? (He's on Byss when he summons the Force Storm on Coruscant.) My point was in showing that in combat, such as what we have in the vs. forum, he is inferior to other incarnations.
I've already addressed this issue in my initial post and in my response to Gideon. His clones are not as powerful as actually flesh. Or do you want to argue that physically speaking, the original clone troopers were not as powerful as Jango Fett? The reason why is because they were getting farther and farther, genetically, from Palpatine's original body. Less midi-chlorians. Less Force potential. Less ability to handle the amount of Dark Side power which Palpatine was used to channeling.
I know you bring this up several other times in your reply, but this is the only time I'm going to point it out. You actually help out this stance of mine by saying things like "For starters, he needs the body of a Skywalker to actually remain in and won't decay as quickly." Because that would mean high Force potential. Strong in the Force. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that he kidnapped the Ysanna for genetic stock, also.
Firstly, can you prove his spirit has grown in strength? Why would his spirit strengthen after each death, anyway (since each clone decays faster). That line of thought makes zero sense. That midi-chlorians, which influence Force potential, are irrelevant...proof of this? As for your quote, let's give everyone the full meaning:
"There is no glimmer of hope in this ship...only the Dark Side of the Force...more powerful than ever."
For one, that was stated from Leia's POV. Leia's last meeting with the Emperor was when he was nearly dead (about to transition into another clone). Furthermore, Luke is also on that ship, more deeply submerged in the Dark Side than ever before, to the point that he actually duels Leia. There's your explanation; it wasn't only Palpatine she was sensing, but Luke - the most powerful Force user in history, gone to the Dark Side.
Again, proof that midichlorians and a physically inferior body make zero difference, and even improve Palpatine's power? There isn't any. And what you are essentially saying is that every time Palpatine dies, he becomes stronger, given that the clones decay even faster each time. That's illogical.
So because Luke beats him in a duel, does that mean GL was lying? I don't get your point here - we all know Palpatine's a great duelist. My point is that he's inferior to his other incarnations as far as combat goes.
Because you said so? Proof of this? I've already shown evidence to support my theory in the forms of text and scans. Midichlorians control Force potential. Less of it means less raw power to utilize.
That's your answer to my post which explictly states that modern lightsabers are more efficient and better than ancient lightsabers? Your assertion, therefore, is wrong.
Whatever the nature of the technique, it isn't Lightning, as most have said. Moreover, the technique was only possible because he was on such a Dark Side rich world. Here is the full quote from the Dark Empire Sourcebook:
"Despite his clones's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise. When Leia Organa Solo brandished a lightsaber at him, Palpatine waved his fingers and the ancient weapon shattered. When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."
Once again, such immunity to effects were due to the Emperor being on Byss. Moreover, no, it was not disintegrating. The end which looks hallowed out, with pieces of it coming off, is because it was attached to a large beam on that side, which Leia separates it from.
(please log in to view the image)
Check the red circles.
Duh?
That's ridiculous. Yes, anger is 'of' the Dark Side. But anyone has the ability to generate it. Anyone getting pissed off, Jedi, Sith, or non-Force sensitive feeds the Dark Side. The fact that his willpower is able to keep it relatively in check is impressive. Willpower is essentially his strong mind and intellect, in this case. It is not indicative of his power in the Dark Side. It's indicative of his knowledge, finesse and mastery of the Dark Side.
"Using this knowledge I can control the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the very fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."
Palpatine himself says that the power to create such storms doesn't come from within himself right there in that line. Once again, I'm quoting evidence, not opinion.
Given that the reasoning behind Palpatine's two "uber" techniques are explained away by the writer using the logic that he was on Byss, in the Byss article of the Dark Empire Sourcebook, yes.
Similar to the hyperbole referring to Palpatine as 'the Shadow' in the ROTS novelization, and 'Black hole in the Force', etc, elsewhere?
So by DE Luke is already the most powerful Jedi ever? Our conclusions of Luke's power and skill in this very thread say differently.
As for your problem with my subpoint D, I can't make a solid case for that particular argument, and conceded it was speculation in my original post.
Question, though: Am I the only one going to take up this particular side of the argument? Because if each of you are going to voice the same complaints I've already dealt with and disproven, I'm going to be very irritable.
Last edited by Enyalus on Sep 13th, 2008 at 08:23 PM
Gender: Male Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Gee, Enyalus, so you're Faunus' slave?!
Now, for this argument, as much as I would love DE Sidious to be weaker than his movie counterparts, I really think that he is Sidious at his peak. Still, I won't get tangled in your debate with Gideon and Lightsnake.
You agree that Sidious, in his peak incarnation (whatever that is, according to you) is the numero uno Sith, right?
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Absolutely. We have sources stating as much (one of which I quoted in my initial post). I'm not trying to make Sidious look bad or detract from his power as much as I'm trying to get this Sidious rabid fanboy-wanking uber power bias under control.
Last edited by Enyalus on Sep 13th, 2008 at 09:45 PM
It states, DIRECTLY, he is 'more powerful' than ever, he has 'grown more powerful,' his 'strength in the Darkside has grown even more.' In several sources. Enyalus, you cannot take this into consideration and say he is actually WEAKER. In combat, there's nothing to support your assertion
En, you don't get it. The clones don't matter, they're just the suit he's wearing. It's his power that's outgrown flesh as a natural spirit. NO clone is as good as the original, they're all flawed in a way. Isard's was, Luke's was, C'baoth's was....not just a Force User thing.
Even BOBA was having genetic breakdown related to the clone thing in LOTF
Because ONLY a Skywalker has the power to hold him indefinitely
The reason being he was rather desperate as he only had one sabatoged body left
Stop. Right. HERE.
Ok, I've shown you that:
A. Palpatine has outgrown the need for flesh and exists as a spirit now
B. It is directly stated his strength as grown.
C. Darksiders tend to express corruption physically, this is NOT new. Look at Freedon Nadd...if he took a clone the same'd happen since clones are genetically not as good as real bodies. The clones decay faster due to a combo of Palpatine's increased power and their own inferiority.
Nothing indicates he's less powerful in them. Quite a few indicates you're wrong there, En
Even Lucas said they're 'just a theory.' Later. They might show how powerful one is with the Force but Palpatine has literally transcended flesh and he says as much. If this is the case, explain any Force Ghost.
That wasn't the quote I was referring to. Read the Ultimate Visual Guide or Jedi vs. Sith, or Heritage of the Sith, or numerous other sources
Midichlorians are never mentioned. Spirits make them irrelevant anyways
I never said 'everytime he dies he becomes stronger.' SINCE he died, he's become stronger. Again: in Rule of Two, Bane notes that powerful Dark Siders' bodies will eventually begin to decay on them. It was stated a combo of Palpatine's power as well as the clones inferiority led to the decay...they're mass produced stock.
Uh, no. Luke only wins since they're both in an avatar state. Your point is utterly flawed, faulty and wrong, with zero proof behind it save an event you're taking out of context.
No, you haven't. You've presented suppositions and often are misinterpreting them. Palpatine displays far greater speed and strength in DE and in the audiodrama than he has before.
Really? Proof of this, please. Even Lucas admitted they're just a theory.
Explain Force Ghosts, too, btw. Explain how Palpatine is directly stated to have transcended flesh. Explain how the Ultimate Visual Guide says he's more powerful in the Dark Side than he's ever been before
Except you need to prove older sabers are less efficient and susceptible to destruction since we've seen 29,000 year old sabers function good as new
Now you're twisting this totally. At no point-NONE- does being on a Dark Side world turn one's skin into iron. And again HE CORRUPTED BYSS. So he turned the World IN to a Dark side world with his power and somehow it's feeding his power? Nonsense. Nothing indicates it's Byss fueling him. Provide actual proof of that. Because it's unsupported in everything I've read
Check the scan where it falls. HALF of it is gone after it hits Palpatine. See all the little pieces coming off?
'Anyone' can summon a Force Storm?' Drop the bias here, En.
If that's the case anyone can do it, when they're noted to require 'incredible' power and discipline
And so am I. Problem is, you're taking things out of context. Using the knowledge of how to fuse his anger with his will-IE, power- he's able to use the Force Storm.
Are you trying to argue for even a SECOND, the Force Storm doesn't require power? When no other Sith has shown us this?
Prove it. Direct quote, NOW. That he's on byss is incidental. Every other source merely reads that it's him who's grown in power.
That's not hyperbole, that's description. They are described as becoming sheer avatars of Light and Dark-and this isn't impossible, Galen Marek and Jacen Solo have done it, to name two. They are described as moving faster than any eye could see, the only thing distinguishing them is the incredible emanation of power.
Once he one with the Light Side? Yeah he is. Besides that? No.
You are using one or two sources here, En, and frankly, a lot of them are inconclusive. several outright state you're wrong-Ultimate Visual Guide, again.
Palpatine is the most powerful there is and he just gets stronger. Most of us have a realistic grasp of this's all.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 13th, 2008 05:47 PM
