And from Dark Empire itself, En:
Palpatine: Flesh does not easily support this great power
And:
Palpatine: You have grown more powerful in the Force since we last met...but then so have I!
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Well, I guess that's reasonable. Although I'm a Sidious fan, I hate it when characters are overpowered and ridiculously exaggerrated- that's why movie Sidious is awesome. He's uber powerful, but in a reasonable way.
This also extends to Nihilus and the other 'planet eating' Sith.
No one here is indulging themselves in "uber Sidious fanwank" or whatever you called it. We have all stated, time and time again (none moreso than myself) that we wish to use this thread to correctly assess attributes amongst characters so as to eliminate the notion that one or two characters are so uber that they dwarf the rest. That I accepted and offered the idea that Marka Ragnos, a neophyte in terms of feats, would be on par with the likes if Luke Skywalker and the Galactic Emperor is a sign of extreme generosity -- since I could just point out that he has no feats to his name and bury the argument.
It was your contention that the reborn Emperor was weaker than when he occupied his original body. According to Palpatine's admissions in Dark Empire and the omniscient scribe of the Ultimate Visual Guide, that contention is patently false.
Your assertion is that, since Palpatine's clone bodies degenerate at great pace, they are weak or weaker? If we apply that logic universally, I suppose the likes of Count Dooku, Darth Maul, Darth Malak, Darth Revan, and every generic dark sider in the mythos is stronger than the Emperor since their bodies weren't ravaged at all. That's ridiculous.
The rest of your hypothesis regarding Palpatine's body and the necrosis from his dark side energies is equally fallacious. That Palpatine was able to summon Force Storms at all indicates that he had enough power to support it; but that is a weakness of the flesh, not of Palpatine himself -- as Luke Skywalker would later conclude, Palpatine was "more energy than flesh."
As I recall, Palpatine himself states in the Essential Guide to the Force that clones are "one step removed from life," hence why he had to occupy new ones at various points. Occupation of a clone body is an unnatural art that defies life itself; you have yet to prove that it was because of a lack of midichlorians.
As Lightsnake has mentioned, Palpatine's narratives describe how he utilizes the Force Storms. If Force potency isn't a requirement, but a fine intellect, willpower, and rage are, why wasn't Moff ****ing Tarkin blowing away Alliance fleets with Force Storms?
Incorrect. As Lightsnake has pointed out, Palpatine was consumed by the Force Storm, and it took the combined power of three Skywalkers to disrupt his control over it. You'll need a lot more than that to assume that "lolz a strong Force user can stop him!!1!"
Regarding Byss:
He did all of that during his reign. When he rarely left Coruscant. That is a measure of the man's power. He is solely responsible for the dark side energies on Byss, leaving all of his feats there a product of his own power.
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Then how can you tell me that a clone version of Sidious is better than the original, when you've said that no clone is a good as the original?
If the clones do not matter, then he is looking for genetic material that is strong in the Force why? If he exists solely as a spirit, and it is only his spirit which makes him so powerful, then why does he need a physical body at all? No, clearly as Gideon had said the clone bodies were less resilient, he needs strong in the Force genetic material to make himself bodies which can handle the power of the Dark Side as well as his original body could. The clone bodies therefore are weaker, and yes midichlorians make a difference. Need more evidence that spirits in and of themselves are not as powerful as the spirit with the original body?
Let's look at Freedon Nadd. His spirit was easily killed by a barely trained Exar Kun. Was his spirit weaker than the real deal? Definitely.
Consider Exar Kun's spirit as opposed to his actual body. Was it weaker and more easily defeated than his flesh and blood body with spirit in it? Yes. How about Marka Ragnos, who ruled the Sith Empire for a hundred years and was called "the most powerful of the powerful." Yet when his spirit goes into the novice Force user Tavion, he gets killed by an average Jedi Knight.
So yes, the physical body does make a difference. The fact that the clone bodies of Palpatine did not have as high a midi-chlorian count as his original mean that he was weaker.
I don't understand what you mean here. Palpatine's spirit would be a form of Force Ghost (albeit a dark variant). Darth Plagueis also discovered how to keep his personality in the Force after death. And again, from TPM and Jedi vs. Sith, it's likely the best explanation for Force affinity and potential.
Yeah, except that the majority of the sources I used to put together my point of Sidious are primary material. Mostly DE I or the DE Sourcebook itself. Which takes precedence over the secondary sourcebooks you seem to want to use, in this case.
Again, see the example of Marka Ragnos and then we'll talk about how irrelevant a physical body with proper Force potential is.
Luke only wins because they're in an avatar state? Well, lets see, the Eclipse II is Palpatine's personal ship filled with Dark Side power, and George Lucas has said that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light. Which means, if in an avatar state, on a Dark Side battleground, Palpatine should have won.
Really. You're not hurting my premise here.
Leia could not see Palpatine move. Okay? In ROTS he's also fast enough to not be seen. That's an improvement? And might I remind you, again, that Leia is a barely trained Jedi Knight with hardly any trained skills.
I've already cited the source. It's in Jedi vs. Sith. Again, what are you attempting to get at with regard to Force Ghosts. Transcending flesh is great, good for him. It means he's learned how to cheat death. Which could explain the Ultimate Visual Guide's quote. Or, 'more powerful in the Dark Side' could relate to his improved knowledge and mastery of it. But again, that's secondary material and inferior to the Dark Empire Sourcebook itself in this argument or any regarding anything about DE.
"The very earliest lightsabers were based on the discovery of natural crystals that spontaneously emit powerful bursts of light and energy at their resonant frequencies...when the lightsaber was invented, warriors did not possess the sophisticated technology of today...The energy efficiency of a modern lightsaber is close to 100%."
There you go, less efficient and thus inferior. As I've already posted and responded to once already.
"Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise."
Again, I've already refuted the point. The writer acknowledges that the tremendous Dark Side power of Byss makes Palpatine, even near death and dying, 'seemingly invulnerable,' and makes wielding his Force powers exponentially easier. If it were purely his power allowing him to do this, he'd be able to do it everywhere - and the writer obviously disagrees.
The part that is torn off of the beam by Leia. And again, the writer states that Palpatine shrugged it off. He does not disintegrate it with his Lightning or anything else. It falls on him. He's unhurt. Because he's on Byss. The end.
Drop misconstruing my posts, LS. 'Anyone has the ability to generate it', 'it' referring back to the word 'anger' I used the sentence before. In that entire point I never even say the words "Force Storm." Anyone can generate anger, not anyone can generate a Force Storm.
No, it never, ever, says that it requires incredible power to perform. I acknowledge that it requires a certain amount, but not so much that 'only the most powerful Sith Lord ever can do it.' What it does require, is amazing and unsurpassed knowledge of the Dark Side, which Palpatine does have.
It requires power, sure. But it requires knowledge and precision much, much more. No other Sith has nearly as much knowledge as Palpatine does, which is why no other Sith has displayed such a technique. His mastery of the Force is unequaled.
Already did, twice now. And even though you've provided no direct full quotes for any of your counter arguments, and are being very rude...For the third and final time:
"Despite his clones's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise. When Leia Organa Solo brandished a lightsaber at him, Palpatine waved his fingers and the ancient weapon shattered. When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."
So Galen Marek = Luke Skywalker? Jacen Solo = Luke Skywalker? Nothing is new about what you're posting, or helping your point. Palpatine in ROTS was already moving faster than the eye could see, and this coming from Jedi POVs who are much more powerful and trained than Leia. So was Yoda.
Palpatine demonstrates nothing besides his Force Storm during the Dark Empire arc. Disintegrating lightsabers has been disproven, disintegrating metal has been disproven, and him being beaten by a barely trained Luke in four panels (1 page) attests to that. His feats on Byss are only because the planet is so powerful in the Dark Side. It would be tantamount to putting Darth Bane on the StarForge and having him fight Yoda.
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You're using that as evidence? The same Palpatine who lied about dying in that very exchange of words? The same Palpatine who also lies about having perfect control over Force Storms? The same Palpatine who's lied numerous other times? Please.
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Yes, that would be ridiculous. But Dooku, Maul, Malak, and Revan weren't decaying to begin with. Palpatine was. And lasted for 86 years. His first clone body that we see at the start of Dark Empire lasts at most, 6 years. That's not a downgrade to you? That's not weaker to you? 'The new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side,' and 'Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster.'
The last is a causal statement. Palpatine's clones were inferior to his original, and because of this they were decaying faster.
Except that, as evidence I've provided shows, the Force Storm doesn't come from within Palpatine, but from manipulation of Dark Side energies elsewhere. It has nothing to do, then, with personal power or support of it.
Given that DE was made in 1991 and midi-chlorians were first mentioned in 1999, there is no way I can possibly prove with quotes that the clone bodies lacked sufficient midichlorians. But logic will suffice. If the clone bodies had the same amount of midichlorians as Palpatine's original body they would have been able to equally support the power he normally has, and would have been decaying at the same rate. That is to say, they'd have reached severe old age at 86, and not, let's say, 26 (let's assume the clones were artificially aged to be 20 years old upon first inhabiting them). A substantial decline.
Seriously, that's stupid. I never implied such a thing. Obviously one needs the Force potency to manipulate Dark Side energies, needs to be Force sensitive at all, and needs incredible knowledge and mastery of the Force in order to know how to summon one at all.
A product of his own power. That is entirely different from it being an 'extension' of his own power. A product of my own power would me being able to build a bike that travels at 35 mph. An extension of my power would be to say that, "I can travel at 35 mph." Two distinctly different things.
Last edited by Enyalus on Sep 13th, 2008 at 11:20 PM
I think EN you(or maybe me?) might be confused on what exactly DE Sidious at his peak means(the one we use a lot in vs matches). To me that means a relatively "fresh" clone body with not enough time to deteriorate to hinder his physical capabilities due to the age the clone body represents.
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That's not the point, at all. Clearly, a fresh clone isn't going to deteriorate during a 5 minute match (at most). My point is that the clones are not as strong in the Force as Palpatine's original, as evidenced by numerous quotes.
This means less raw power, fewer Force reserves, etc etc to draw upon during the match. That is my underlying point.
En, if it was a CLONE Palpatine, you'd have a point. It's just Palpatine in a different body.
Because in EE, he's desperate
Because he needs an achor to the world. His spirit isn't anchored anywhere and to continue to live, he needs a body.
Learn some context. Kun had an amulet, which is one of those things that can destroy Sith spirits and caught Nadd totally off guard.
He'd been on the mortal plain four hundred years, time does that. Moreover, the nature of Sith spirits are different between Nadd and Palp...Nadd can't just posssess something, he needed Kun to literally make him a new body. Nadd anchored himself to the world in a way Palp did not
I'll say it again: TIME is the factor and all of them had thethered their souls to a LOCATION
Citing the sources again, Enyalus. Sorry, but your supposition is wrong. Palpatine had grown MORE POWERFUL. It's outright said he 'transcended flesh' and existed as more than a body. He needed a body to remain in the physical world, and? All the necessity for a strong in the Force body is one that doesn't disintegrate and die on him.
Plagueis had absolutely no use for life beyond death, he wanted to preserve life.
NO. No, you will NOT play that card because it's wrong and insulting.
You will not form your own suppositions that contradict canon and then claim "But they trump secondary sources!" No. They are ALL C-canon, on the same level and the rule is that later sources trump newer ones via retcons.
Unless there's a quote that OUTRIGHT STATES "Palpatine is weaker," then ALL IT IS is your interpretation and later sources, which>the Dark Empire sourcebook say your interpretation is wrong.
Your point being? Marka in a half dead body anyways?
What part about Leia clearing away the shadows and making the battleground equal didn't I make clear, En? DE audiobook again
Too fast for any eye to see? In ROTS, Yoda could clearly see him, Mace as well. In DE, his body is younger, faster, with more stamina and more power to increase his ability.
And I'll remind you it's said Luke and Palp were moving too fast for any eye to detect. Palpatine at that point is a literal avatar of the Dark Side, that would imply substantial speed
Not this hoary old excuse again. At what point could that equate to power in the Dark Side? It says he's grown stronger, more powerful, etc. It tends to mean he's grown more powerful.
Cheating death wouldn't cover power. Neither would knowledge or mastery. He was already as powerful as a Dark Sider can get...why did it say he'd grown more powerful when in the entire book 'power' is just used to refer to power in the Force?
Wrong again. It's C-canon. On the same level as DE. you will not dismiss what damages your arugment on this basis
the 'very earliest?' A 10,000 year old saber is 15,000 years removed from 'the very earliest. Which we've seen, against, work FINE after 29,000 years had past
No, the writer says he seems invulnerable on byss. He never indicates it's because he's on byss, which, you've again refused to acknowledge, any Dark Side power on byss is Palpatine's own doing.
At no point does being on a Dark Side world equate to invincibility. Or else Ludo Kressh wouldn't even have felt the brick slam into his skull on Korriban in Golden Age of the Syth
Wrong again, en, cut it out and LOOK AT THE PICTURE. The piece that is SLAMMING ON HIS HEAD is VISIBLY DISINTEGRATING and is on the OPPOSITE END of the bit LEIA TORE OFF
Anger related to power in the Dark Side. anyone can get angry, Dark side use it to feed their power
Yeah? So why don't other Sith use it when it'd save their lives in fleet battles, now?
And yes, later sources do say it needs incredible power to use. Anger and will together, Palpatine calls them as well, are the greatest power and weapons. For the sith as well, knowledge in the Dark side generally translates to power. Everything indicates incredible power required just to even control them. Will is just a component of power
You're not really seeing a correlation between anger, will, mastery, knowledge and power to a Sith?
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Where. Does. This. Indicate. That being on Byss is anything but incidental? Again...the darkness on Byss is something he himself created, how is it empowering him?
Stop forcing your interpretation on it and answer it.
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You're missing the point entirely...All of the above become pure avatars with the Force in their times of need.
It's the narrator who says otherwise, not Leia.
so he blew it up. And?
The picture clearly shows it disintegrating. Look at the picture!
STOP.
IGNORING.
MY.
POINTS!
For the last time, because you're testing my patience, En: The Audiobook makes it clear the two have become pure avatars of light and Dark, Leia's powers clears away the shadows and darkness to make it an even fight and Luke wins because he has Leia and her child to defend. It is two beings of absolute, equal power who fight, so kindly cut this nonsense out
Because. He. Made. It. SO
Stop ignoring what's not convenient for you
Unless Bane MADE the Starforge...
And again...other sources directly state he's grown more powerful than ever. So really, enough and don't you dare respond with 'But they're secondary!'
I don't see an 'S-canon' label on them. They're equal to the DE sourcebook and if they contradict, guess what gets retconned?
i think i'd like to agree with you too, like faunus i've never read DE, so i can't really debate, though i like that you are posting parts of it, and i agree with you, that the picture looks more like Leia ripped the thing off a wall than that sidious is disintegrating it (you notice i have quite a habit of challenging how "things appear" for how they are stated to have been anyway, so it was easy for me to take your side on that one. So i'm on your side if you can win, mainly b/c i like movie characters to ursurp comic book characters as much as possible.
That doesn't MATTER as I've been trying to explain to you. Palpatine is directly stated, En, to have transcended flesh. He is still alive, so he hasn't died save in body. He has NOT gone to the netherworld and returned back as a spirit. His power comes from his spirit and the body is simply what houses it.
the reason they die faster is they're inferior copies. The reasons he wants a body strong in the force is a body powerful enough to hold his spirit.
It's all of Palpatine's incredible power in a body that can't hold it and so it begins going downhill. Because the clones, or random stormtrooper Joe or even Sedriss would just start degenerating because the flesh is forced to contain something too powerful and can't last long. He tries putting together a body from Ysanna genetic stock because in EE, he badly, BADLY needs a new one because the last was sabotaged before and needs to last long enough to get to Anakin...because an untainted Skywalker body is the only thing with the force power to contain his spirit.
Is this clear, En? You can't contain something powerful as Palpaitne with an inferior body.
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That's splitting hairs, for one. But anyway, Palpatine was the prime template for the clone bodies. It was his genetic material used in the batch of clones which Palpatine uses. Hence the statement about them getting farther and farther away from the original.
Nice answer.
Care to prove that time weakens a spirit? So what you're wanting me to believe is that Marka Ragnos, called "the most powerful of the powerful," yet being put into the novice body of a mediocre Force-sensitive did not hinder his power level or potential at all?
Big deal. Know who else was cited as being 'more presence than flesh'? Darth Nihilus. So what? That line of argument is irrelevant.
Marka was presumably an immensely powerful Force user, freshly awakened. Yet when he posseses a body which - we should assume - is inferior to his original, he's easily beaten by a no-name Jedi Knight. The body is an outlet for power. If you have a weak or inferior body when compared to your original, obviously you are not going to be able to perform as well as you did in the original, at your peak. This is obvious.
I was under the impression that she clears away the shadows from his mind, not from the ship. I don't have the audiobook, though. Is this the case or not?
Yoda and Sidious are both credited with moving with blurring speed and faster than the eye can see. As for your 'faster, more stamina and power to increase his ability,' you need to prove that - which you haven't yet. I have given plausible reasons why the opposite would be the case. Less power and force reserves for him to draw upon. If his body is inferior to the original to where they can't handle the immense energies Palpatine uses and decays even faster, what makes you think he is going to be able to summon up and use all of the vast power of his spirit in such a poorly suited, weaker in the Force body? It makes no sense. You channel the power of the Force through your body. That's how it works. If your body is too weak to handle those energies, it's going to perform worse. And if your body is even weaker than the original and less powerful in the Force (lower midi-chlorians), this again would reduce its effectiveness.
Palpatine as an avatar of the Dark Side is no more a description than him being able to fully embrace the Dark Side, him being in complete concert with the Dark Side of the Force, or any of the other numerous quotes regarding his addiction to the Sith. Your implication that he'd be moving faster than already stated elsewhere, is unsubstantiated.
Except that you're losing context. The quote regarding the early lightsabers is brought up right after explaining the age of Leia's lightsaber. Indicating that the quote is speaking directly about weapons as old as Leia's. Moreover, Palpatine refers to it as an 'unworthy weapon'.
Oh my god. Seriously? Yes, that's why. The writer all but spells it out. It's common knowledge that Dark Side worlds boost Dark Siders abilities when fighting there. Put the most powerful Sith Lord ever on a world that was described as the dark center of the universe, and that's what you get: a nigh-invulnerable Palpatine.
Have you been reading? Because actually, I have. To Gideon and to you. But you don't seem to be accepting that for one, it wasn't solely his power. It was the numerous Sith artifacts, holocrons, items, Dark Side adepts, and Sith alchemy being practiced there.
There's no proof it is on the opposite end, for one. It looks more like the pieces of debris caused from Leia tearing it off are falling down along with the cooling unit. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what it looks like. The writer says he shrugged it off, not that he disintegrated it. Therefore, he does not disintegrate any 'large metal objects' at any point in Dark Empire.
NO ONE ELSE HAS THE SHEER KNOWLEDGE BASE OR SCALE OF MASTERY IN THE FORCE AS PALPATINE IN THE HISTORY OF THE MYTHOS
Since I've explained it before, hopefully this time you won't choose to ignore it.
I assume that compassion, will, mastery and power all correlate to a Jedi. In that case, all hail Odan-Urr, the most powerful Jedi in history!
But, seriously, stop misrepresenting what I say. Of course it takes power to create a Force Storm. But it relies more on knowledge than on power. As I've already said, again and again.
In addition to making him nearly invulnerable, it says that using his Force powers were more of an afterthought than an exercise, even while being in a badly decaying and dying body. Which means that the boost to his Force powers on Byss are far more substantial there than in a neutral area. It's right there, in the text. And I posted it. Thrice. Do some interpretation.
I'm not. But just because he's responsible for turning it into a place of Darkness, does not mean that all the power of that planet is his own. Revan was responsible for turning Malachor V into a Dark Side nexus. Is it all his power? Of course not. Palpatine does not have the power of an entire freakin' planet plus his own amazing reserves. Only when he is on the planet can he tap into it...as any Dark Sider could. Again, it's obvious.
I saved this for last because it's a serious question. And I asked it 10 or so pages earlier. Both Palpatine and Luke become avatars of the Force, and this presumably increases their skill and power. But as we've seen, from Luke and Galen and Jacen, this is something that happens almost at random. Are you really wanting to use this as evidence of Palpatine's immense skill in combat, given the fact that from what we've seen, Palpatine cannot enter an avatar state at will? It would seem to me to be more the exception than the rule while in a battle.
If not, this means that his high showings were on one of the most powerful Dark Side planets and a place where he was immesurably stronger, and his only other showing he enters an avatar state (the Dark Side being stronger than the Light Side), and still ends up losing. That doesn't look like a great resume for Sidious, with respect to combat.
As for that last post of yours (can't quote all of it, length restraints), I perfectly understand your meaning and explanation. I simply have a different explanation, which lead to the inevitable conclusion that the clone bodies are 'inferior copies' (your words, not mine) and thus they cannot wield the same or greater level of power than Palpatine's original, stronger in the Force self. I believe it to be a reasonable - whether correct or not - conclusion.
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Am i sensing hostility faunus?
I didn't want to "refute" his "argument" which had "flaws" simply because i couldn't care less about debating sci fi characters anymore, getting heated up over a debate of sci fi characters is extremely stupid hence why i chose not to argue ok? Satisfactory answer?
Besides, why should i step in when lightsnake and gideon are already participating and if you feel like doing something.
Seriously though, i feel that when you want to do something, you do it with all your heart, and debating isn't something that i put my heart into doing to unlike gideon(I believe).
Last edited by BoratBorat on Sep 14th, 2008 at 01:38 AM
That they're clones doesn't MATTER, though. Palpatine's power is what causes their decay. His power has increased, the bodies are the issue. His spirit is the powerful entity, it doesn't depend on the bodies
Was this sarcasm?
Tavion isn't mediocre, she's pretty darned good. But it is outright stated that the power of spirits decreases over time, I'll find the exact quote later
Different case. Nihilus preserved his spirit in his armor you'll note. Palpatine has become more than a body and bodies don't hold such power...even normal bodies would suffer the same fate.
That's why he needs a Skywalker
It's Marka's 5000 year old spirit, too, in a body that's been wounded nearly to death.
This isn't even comparable. Tavion's badly injured body and Marka's weaker spirit?
Palpatines spirit is a different sort-he has never gone to the netherworld, never tethered himself...he just outgrew his body, it's different. His bodies are also all fresh ones that haven't received any injury.
Or Marka could just simply not be all he's hyped up to be.
All we know is she clears away the shadows and makes the fight one on even ground
The body is younger, En. As a healthy 16 year old form with more force power, has been shown moving faster than any eye can see....?
What 'less force reserves?!' The BODY does not have the power! Palpatine can take over any body he wants, even a non Force Sensitive. He heals Droga with his OWN power, not Droga's! The power is just Palpatine's and it is NOT dependent on what he currently inhabits. He just wants to make sure that the body can last, no mention is made of him being more powerful in one or the other
The body will not die in the fight itself. Flesh itself is weak, Palpatine knows this and years of it have 'prematurely wizened' him according to the quote-a sign of power. Again, the body Palpatine inhabits is immaterial...the power is all his and he can animate it even if it's totally broken, just like Droga's...you're operating from a faulty premise that he needs to call upon the power of the body.
When he was inside Brand, Brand was 'eaten alive' by the power of Palpatine's soul and Palpatine has no issues using powers in his clone forms. He'll use his powers and then abandon the body when it's past saving
The body can handle it for long enough. His clone took years to decay.
Enough of this nonsense. The body he inhabits is immaterial and seperate from his power. He just keeps the body active and working. If it can handle becoming a pure embodiment of the Dark Side and becoming a 'Dark Nexus (DE issue 6), it can handle a lot
Enyalus, he's achieved pure oneness with the Dark Side just as Luke's done with the light. It's the same as Jacen did in Unifying Force on the opposite level.
and? That's undercut by 29,000 year old sabers working perfectly and Leia's saber being downright new compared to really ancient ones.
Palpatine mocking her doesn't mean much. If it's later simple, Rayf ysanna should've been disarmed and killed by any Dark Jedi
You're failing to account for the fact that darkness is all due to Palpatine. There's no reason it would increase his power or make him invulnerable to getting his skull crushed. Again, LOOK AT LUDO on Korriban.
all due to who now? The indication is Palpatine is the one who corrupted Byss and made it the Dark Side Nexus it became. Holocrons do not corrupt a world, nor do low scale adepts or alchemy.
Uhh...the ends are shaped rather different, y'know
So the writer left a detail out, because it's clearly disintegrating. Just look at it...the bit she tore off is in the air...the bit near his head in bursting apart. Metal doesn't shatter when it strikes someone
And? There seems to be remarkably little 'knowledge' involved with using anger and will together
Yeah, Odan "I can't even use battle meditation right" Urr had 'mastery.'
Palpatine has mastery, knowledge and power that exceeded any other Dark Sider, this is solid fact. His will power also exceeded any other...that's part of where power comes from.
Also, last I checked, but Yoda's got Odan solidly beat in 'mastery' 'will' and 'power.'...probably 'compassion' too, since his plan for fallen students is "Eh, run off and join the evil lunatics club, see if I care!"
They're pretty interrelated for the Sith, En.
No, stop forcing your interpretation on the text, because it's supported nowhere else. This is like saying bane is only that powerful because he's continuously on worlds steeped in the Dark Side, the Ancients are only powerful from worlds steeped in the Dark Side, Kun's only powerful due to Yavin IV, etc.
all that darkness on Byss is Palpatine's creation.
Palpatine is just that good at this point. He's increased in power since and even if Byss is boosting him, that's turning a Titan into a veritable God.
You could use the same standard for any Sith in regards to boosting, so it evens out
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who said he did? And when the heck did Revan do that to Malachor, it was an Ancient Sith Empire world. The Academy was there before Revan was.
considering when he and Luke met again and Luke felt he was 'more powerful than ever' and 'submitted to him on the spot' to learn his secrets when they were on a Star Destroyer...
I'm using it to point out that the point that he lost to Luke is a flawed one
Is there any Sith you can mention this doesn't go for? Bane's combat feats consist of places like Lehon, Korriban and Tython, all Dark Side worlds...so let's not use double standards against Palpatine here, just an example
Oh, and Luke and Palp in that state are described as 'equals'
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You need to stop this. They just wear out quicker-matter of several years, nothing indicates his power is hampered.
As I believe I've shown, it would be a reasonable assumption, albeit an incorrect one. And to reduce anything to just saying "He was on Byss" is ridiculous
- It's explicitly stated that "on Byss," Palpatine "seemed invulnerable" and used the Force more "as an afterthough than an exercise," while noting that this was in spite of his decaying body. The cooling unit falls on him and he "shrugs" it off - he doesn't disintegrate it. Period, end of story. It's literally right there, I don't see how you're actively ignoring it.
- The fact that Palpatine was responsible for the creation of the darkness on Byss does not mean that his personal, raw power was the sole cause behind it. While I don't recall what he did there, you need to acknowledge that actions and events are almost always what cause concentrations of Force-energy, dark or otherwise. The darkness on Ambria was, I believe, introduced through a failed experiment by a lone Sith Lady, and then driven into Lake Naath by Master Thon. The detonation of the thought bomb by the Sith Lords of the Brotherhood scarred the affected area, and the dark storm brought about earlier by Bane and the Brotherhood actually altered Ruusan's climate completely. Vjun was another one, although I'm not familiar with the circumstances behind its corruption. Korriban, Malachor V, and others are even more examples. I'm probably missing quite a few.
- You're also wrong about Palpatine's "power" ruining his body. It's overuse of the dark side, not personal power, that ravages flesh, which is what Darth Bane actually noted in Rule of Two. The Emperor himself notes that "the demands of the dark side" are beyond his body's capabilities to handle.
- And one moment; did you seriously try to deny the importance and existence of midichlorians? If that's not the worst argument made here I don't know what is.
This is beneath you. Get a grip.
@Ivalice: If you don't care to argue, don't act superior about it. Saying that others should "ignore" Enyalus's post because of one oversight is stupid, and doing it when you're not even inclined to debate period is idiotic.
hmmm, Lightsnake, i have a question: regarding the clones: how can palpatine's body not matter? it is the midichlorians (stupid as that may be) that give one the ability to use the force. If sidious occupies a body that has a lower midichlorian count than his original, he's going to have that much less ability to use the force. That just seems like common sense. In what capacity can he therefore manipulate the force? (serious question)
and i agree with Enyalus, if it is written that an object struck sidious, and a picture "looks like" it is disintigrating, it means it struck him. Its that simple. Its art. To be honest, i didn't think the picture looked like a disintegration at all. It looked like an effect the artist used in drawing it. but that's just me. The quote is what decides it, and that's because, just as i point out, art is interpreted different ways by different people.
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Listen, I'm with you on part of this. Palpatine's power is within his spirit. But in my opinion, and with the evidence about the clone bodies inferiority, in order to properly apply and channel that power fully, one needs to have a body that has a high Force potential. If it wasn't needed at all, why don't we see Palpatine's disembodied self WTFPWNing people in Empire's End?
Let me pose another question: Do you honestly believe that Palpatine in one of his clone bodies would be equal in power to a Palpatine who was in a Skywalker's body? My answer would be, no, Palpatine in a Skywalker body would be much stronger than in his deficient clone body.
She's nowhere near top tier. Like Ragnos probably was. And, I haven't read the quote. I've only heard it float around as an assumption around here. But if there is one, yes, I'd love to see it.
Is the "making the fight on even ground" your interpretation, or what it actually says? I'm trusting you here.
But that's just it. To me, he doesn't have more Force power in his younger body, because the clones are genetically weaker and inferior than his original body. His spirit carries the power, but I would argue that is the case with any Force user. But to go along with that power, you need a powerful body to channel it through. A body strong in the Force, with high Force potential. He doesn't have that. And what you're basically saying, by stating that the physical body doesn't matter, is that someone like Obi-Wan can summon as much power and Force reserves as Anakin can.
And does he disintegrate lightsabers in that body? Does he survive one ton cooling units being dropped on his head? Does he make Luke look stupid within three panels? No. He doesn't display nearly such a high level of power while in Droga. The body matters.
How many times in the literature have we seen things like, "So-and-so closed his eyes and allowed the power of the Force to fill him," or "he could feel the power of the Force coursing through his body," or a great many other things. Yes, this is how things work - the spirit might have the power, but in order to use it, one needs a body which is Force-sensitive to utilize it. The stronger the body is in the Force, the higher the Force potential. This is why Dark Side spirits and Force Ghosts can do practically nothing in and of themselves. Even though the spirit posseses the knowledge and power, the body is needed to channel those energies. An inferior body is going to be able to channel less of his power, less effectively.
And this is getting a bit into theology, but the spirit does exist prior to death. Recall Yoda saying that we exist primarily as luminous beings (spirits).
Doesn't matter what you think in that regard. The omniscient writer's information overrides that.
No, god damn it, I am not. So the **** what if it is? Naga Sadow turned Yavin 4 into a Dark Side world, does that mean he's anywhere near as powerful as Palpatine? Freedon Nadd turned Onderon into a Dark Side rich world, and then his spirit was able to taint it's moon, Dxun, simply by being entombed there. Does that mean Nadd > Palpatine (since that's actually a much better feat than overriding only one world)? No.
As far as Ludo Kressh on Korriban, he was dueling another Dark Sider, Naga Sadow there. And Ludo doesn't have one fifth of the power Palpatine has. The comparison is beyond insulting.
Furthermore, if Palpatine's increased powers and abilities were not a result of him being enhanced by Byss' dark side energies, instead of saying:
"Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise."
The author would have said this:
"Palpatine seemed invulernable, his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise."
See the difference? There's no need to specify such a thing unless it's important.
Aleema and Satal Keto cause Cinnagar to become a Dark Side planet. That's what Sith alchemy can do. By your own words, Aleema is a weakling.
It's never even shown striking him, it's shown when it is still above his head. This is ridiculous. The disintegrating incident never happened. Period.
Odan was two hundred plus years older than Yoda, founded the freakin' great library on Ossus, was a master of battle meditation, created his own holocron, was a master of Force Sever, and rewrote the effing Jedi Code. I think he trumps Yoda in knowledge and mastery, at the very least.
No. And you're once again twisting what I say. I never said Palpatine is only powerful on Byss. I said he can only disintegrate Leia's archaic lightsaber and survive cooling units landing on his head to no ill affects because he's on Byss. And that's fact, because it's backed up in the Sourcebook.
You seem to be arguing that putting a Dark Sider on a Dark Side steeped planet doesn't matter, which is completely false. They would get a large boost in power - the more powerful the world, the more powerful the boost. This is backed up in Path of Destruction, when Bane notes the difference in energy between Korriban, a dead world, and Lehon. "The dark side is strong here. Far stronger than it ever was on Korriban. This is where we will find the power to destroy the Jedi—not in Kaan's Brotherhood!"
I hope that was a mistake and not a lie. Luke meets Palpatine for the first time in Dark Empire on Byss. Luke's even in an energy cage being transported into the capital city.
Okay. I understand that. But my question still stands - to you and anyone else:
Both Palpatine and Luke become avatars of the Force, and this presumably increases their skill and power. But as we've seen, from Luke and Galen and Jacen, this is something that happens almost at random. Are you really wanting to use this as evidence of Palpatine's immense skill in combat, given the fact that from what we've seen, Palpatine cannot enter an avatar state at will?
Last edited by Enyalus on Sep 14th, 2008 at 04:53 AM
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