LoTF Luke. And his fight with Caedus helps to establish Caedus' rank as well as Luke's. He was one of his most powerful opponents.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
You are indulging yourself in kotor3- and Enyalus-class logic, Faunus. The event surrounding Palpatine's murder of the Sith acolytes is comparable; the rest are not. Starkiller, Windu, and those two Jedi you mentioned were in combat stance and expecting a fight. Starkiller rushed Palpatine; Windu's saber was ignited and he was armed with the knowledge regarding Palpatine's Sith allegiance, as were the two Jedi in Dark Empire.
LOL. The idea that the gap between Windu and Sidious is less than Caedus and Skywalker is ridiculous. Windu isn't comparable to Vastor, who in turn, isn't comparable to Vader, who in turn, isn't comparable to Sidious.
Getting prepared for a fight as a precaution and being prepared for a fight are two entirely different things.
If Caedus was standing in combat stance and blade ignited, I will concede. Otherwise, you have no ground. That the omniscient narrator makes special reference that he was "caught by surprise" indicates that Caedus wasn't expecting an attack at all.
True, though your syllogism and comparisons are lackluster. Remember, this isn't a debate, this is a discussion to see where Skywalker stands.
Last edited by Gideon on Sep 3rd, 2008 at 09:10 PM
This is the order we're going in. The Ancient Sith can be addressed after Vader.
So, what are our conclusions on NJO Luke and LotF Luke? Does anyone else agree that for most of New Jedi Order, Luke is not the OMGWTFPWNZORS of Force users.
Last edited by Gideon on Sep 3rd, 2008 at 09:19 PM
Faunus i think makes a good point when he said that luke didn't go from being merely extraordinary to uber in the span of one book(TUF) but rather he just stopped holding back.
but gideon you too i think are right when u said "And the purpose of this thread is to find the reason why."
also i don't have the source off the top of my head but i do believe that GL stated somewhere that Luke went on to become what his father should have. or something like that and I could be wrong. but i will try and find a source for that if anyone else has herd this before you are more than welcome to help me out on finding the source.
If this is right then couldn't that be a reason why luke is so good?
I don't want to stick my nose where is doesn't belong in this topic, but you can't rule out lukes uberness throughout the NJO. I mean, we clearly have him operating at the high level he does in TUF, and at lesser level before hand. However, if we cannot account for his lower showings in the context of the SW universe, then we simply have to accept that he was capable of similar feats beforehand regardless of the inconsistency.
I think NJO Luke(at his NJO peak) is still more powerful then anyone to have come before him but I don't think he could handle 2 characters like as ROTS Sidious and oh let's say Kun at once like some may think.
Yes, of course, nobody ever said Luke was not superior, Gideon was merely pointing out that, by NJO, he was not the best of the best by a very large margin, I think.
But as per the purpose of this thread, we are to address discrepencies and put them into proper perspective as well. Consider that post-Dark Empire, he was quite handily defeated by the spirit of Exar Kun. In Jedi Knight II, he was defeated by Desann in single combat. Just prior to the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker stumbled upon the remnants of the ill-fated Outbound Flight, where he came across a slightly modified Trade Federation-era droideka. Despite having assistance from the considerably talented Emperor's Hand, the droid succeeded in challenging him. How is this so? These discrepencies cannot be ignored.
Galen Marek was capable of obliterating massive amounts of Imperial personnel and heavy weaponry rather casually, numerous times throughout the Force Unleashed and used the Force to redirect a falling Star Destroyer, which is -- to me -- far more impressive than Skywalker's dealing with Shimrra's elite (with assistance). Yet look at what happened to him: he was initially outmatched by General Kota (a Jedi capable of casually resisting Force lightning and emitting telekinesis on a level that it all but destroyed a massive orbital factory), nearly killed by Shaak Ti, and nearly killed by Darth Vader (who in turn was capable of casually stopping General Kota). Is he impressive? Certainly. Depending on what source you look at, he was capable of tanking a pissed off Palpatine's Force lightning for a given amount of time and managed to make the Emperor "cry out in lascivious pain" or telekinetically hurl him into the ceiling of his observation dome and then electrocuting him, though it seemed obvious that the Emperor wasn't attacking to his greatest extent, nothing suggests he was allowing Marek to embarrass him like that. Still, despite his impressive feats, he's hardly invulerable and was handily defeated by individuals such as Kota and Shaak Ti who were nowhere near his equal in Force mastery or raw potency. Hell, the comic depicts one of the Emperor's Shadow Guard giving him an assbeating. And this is an individual who, in some ways, emits feats in excess of Skywalker as of NJO.
The point is that Skywalker is not infallible. In Legacy of the Force, despite the ferocity and great strength he demonstrates in Dark Nest and The Unifying Force, he was nearly destroyed by Lumiya, who (while being an immeasurably cunning fighter) is certainly, by no means, a rival of Luke in terms of Force use. How would he do against someone like Darth Bane, who is cunning and armed with orbalisks? Or, heaven help him, Palpatine, who not only has a greater mastery of the Force than Skywalker but is lightyears more cunning and brilliant (it was he who trained Lumiya).
Hmm... This is certainly something to look at, and you make an excellent point.
I suppose it means that having the highest Force Potential in all of Star Wars does not mean he is skilled, cunning, or even experienced enough, to use this incredible power wisely, and most importantly, efficiently during battle(s).
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Last edited by Col. Valerian on Sep 4th, 2008 at 12:40 AM
i'll agree with that: i think it applies to every character tho: falls into the whole football: anyone can beat anyone on any given sunday thing. Giants over the pats, w/e, Just because someone is better, certainly does not mean they will win in a duel. This kinda contradicts our entire vs. forum, in which we assume if something should happen, it will, but that's just not the case. TPM is proof of this with obi-wan and kenobi.
Just to say it: I played through Jedi Knight II recently and... well I don't know how canon the in-game, randomly generated cutscene is, but Luke wasn't defeated by Desann, more just... pushed a few feet.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
It was my understanding that Desann buried him under a pile of rubble. Was I wrong?
Precisely, Lieutenant. Luke Skywalker has a nearly peerless potential. As Lightsnake has pointed out, Skywalker has demonstrated an incredibly high learning rate that allows him to master techniques based on sheer intuition; he is not a scholar such as the Emperor or Yoda. His power comes from his natural affinity to understand and control the Force. But does that make him the end all? Hardly.
His knowledge is hardly comparable to say, one of the greater Jedi or Sith, as his knowledge base was purged or deliberately misinformed by the machinations of the Empire. He will never rival someone like Yoda or the Galactic Emperor in terms of cogent, cohesive mastery.
Skywalker's intellect and wisdom are also considerable. But is he an incredibly cunning foe such as Lumiya or Mara Jade? No. Is he a brilliant tactition like Grand Admiral Thrawn or General Grievous? No. Is he a master strategist or genius like Palpatine? No. Is he a trained killer or an exemplary fighter? No. He's a master swordsman, but he's no killer. Lumiya legitimately brought him to the brink of defeat because she is simply the better fighter, though hardly the stronger Force user.
Not to mention that, since ESB, he has demonstrated a lack of confidence that resulted in his failure to lift the X-wing. He suffered further by the nightmares on Byss, the death of his beloved wife, the estrangement of his son, the treachery of his nephew, his murder of an ex-lover. I think that is the source of his flaws.
He pushed him and lightsabered a platform. Distracted Luke long enough to escape. Luke jumped out from behind and stood perfectly straight, shaking his head as the Doomgiver departed.
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I found out something interesting, it seems like certain parts of the TFU novel and comic contradict one another, vader pwning kota is for one, while paratus is missing from the comic.
And the most interesting part was that the novel states that marek blew himself up which destroyed part of the death star, while the comic showed that palpatines lightning became too large and too intense for marek to fully absorb/block and then a massive explosion occurs.
I went back through the Unifying Force and, from pages 264 to 267, Jacen Solo and Luke Skywalker converse about the duality of the Force. Skywalker all but confirms my two theories:
a.) Luke Skywalker remains haunted from his brief tenure as an agent of the Sith.
-- The Unifying Force, page 264
b.) Skywalker's insecurities prevent him from "unleashing" himself.
-- The Unifying Force, page 265
I feel that we have almost concluded Skywalker's relative power and, unless anything else can be offered, we may begin our final conclusions.
Sep 3rd, 2008 06:33 AM
