Again, no contradiction. Nothing suggests that it was just Palpatine's Force lightning. We simply don't have Marek's internal narrative to say what he decided to do, since the story is being narrated by a spectator in the comic.
Luke's relative power cannot truly be looked at until we discuss the others tho.. who is he being compared to? surely the same conclusion that we came to with luke , that he COULD lose battles, would also be true of every other character He still is the favorite, comparable only to the very top tier fighters (DE sidious, yoda, etc). Just as he COULD lose, it is also, by our own discussion, most likely that he would not, in any stand up, knock down fight. was it that you were trying to disprove that luke could, without the slightest effort destroy all others? because that was never believed in the first place anyway, i don't think.
well I dunno about you but Luke has Always Since ROTJ tried bringing people back to the light side. he did with vader.
when he fights dessan i'm quite sure that he wasn't trying to kill him but bring him back to the LS thats why after he gets out of the rubble he looks down and shakes his head not in defeat but in disappointment that he couldn't bring him back. But i guess you could say that he was beaten but luke was surely not TRYING to kill desann.
the same goes for lumiya in his encounters with her in LOTF. If I remember correctly as soon as luke decided to just kill lumiya the fight sequence wasn't very long like what 2 or 3 pages long? the fight in universe must have been like 5 minutes tops. I will go re read it though my memory may be scewed.
as for the droideka and the force unleashed I think those are author mistakes i mean ya what they right is considered cannon but they are human and i think that just because one author makes it really hard for luke to beat a droid and the another makes him uber like in TUF doesn't necessarily mean that they painted an accurate account of how powerful luke is.
it's our job as the reader to use discretion and deductive reasoning to figure out which authors portray an accurate character be it luke, han, vader, or anyone. That's why GL says there are 3 worlds his world the EU and what happens in our(the fans) minds.
Last edited by xxxpoppunker182 on Sep 4th, 2008 at 06:42 AM
Lol, in that case, the Ewoks were exterminated in the Endor Holocaust.
Wasn't the droideka incident before the Vong Invasion? If so, you can attribute Luke's power increase to his experience in the war.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
i think i didn't communicated what i wanted to the right way.
this might help.
if an author depicts luke, lets say 1 year after LOTF, as someone who can hardly defeat a YVH droid does that mean that he actually has a hard time beating a YVH droid? or is it possible that the author screwed up?
I think we as the readers full well know that luke could just destroy the YVH droid with ease. especially by LOTF.
Last edited by xxxpoppunker182 on Sep 4th, 2008 at 07:31 AM
You'd have to question the validity of the rest of the author's writing in that case, casting his control over canon into question.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
What I am doing is trying to lift the delusion that the likes of Skywalker and the Emperor are completely without peer. Both of them have certain things in common regarding combat prowess and Force aptitude. The difference is that Skywalker's state of power has fluctuated ever since Dark Empire. In Jedi Academy, he was defeated by the efforts of the spirit of Exar Kun and Kyp Durron; he was defeated by Desann in Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast; he was nearly defeated by a droideka in Survivor's Quest; he was nearly killed by Lord Nyax in Rebel Dream; he was nearly killed by Lumiya in Tempest; he was injured by Jacen Solo in Inferno. The man is hardly infallible.
The purpose of this thread is to give an accurate depiction of characters and their abilities without aggrandizement or assumptions. If there is an inconsistency concerning a character, I'd like to try to find a reason for it. And in TUF, Luke confirms that he fears drawing on most of his raw power due to his insecurities regarding the dark side of the Force. Hence why his moments as a veritable force of nature are few and far between.
His battle with Lumiya is also one of interest. Though it is apparent that she is neither his equal in Force strength or in skills with a lightsaber, he was outmatched by her in their duel. Why? Because she is a trained fighter and killer, her skills as a combatant far exceed his own. Hence why Mara Jade was also able to dominate someone more powerful than herself: Jacen Solo, though she his equal in neither category. Training and mentality helps, and as it stands, Lumiya and Mara Jade are dangerous even to the likes of Luke and Jacen because they are simply better trained and far more intelligent fighters.
Edit: Though I'd like to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that they compare in terms of swordsmanship or Force strength. They don't. They're not close.
Last edited by Gideon on Sep 4th, 2008 at 09:31 PM
I agree with your first and last statements, but you're completely ignoring any sense of context in most of the examples you cited.
The only fight that doesn't make sense is the one with the droideka, and that should be chalked up to an author's error.
And you're ignoring the most obvious one: human error. Zahn gave no canonical reason for Luke being unable to easily defeat a droideka when he'd already shown himself capable of destroying an entire armada of advanced battle droids years earlier. You can assume that he was somehow afraid of losing control (against a droid...) due to his past experiences and accumulated insecurities, but fact is that not every inconsistency has a logical canon reason. That's why they're called inconsistencies.
Again, so that you don't somehow misconstrue my meaning: I do agree that Luke is not infallible; that much is painfully obvious. And I agree that some of the fluctuations in power can be explained through his inherent insecurities.
But you are seemingly desperate to find some way to just downplay his accomplishments or mark them off as "deus ex machina," as you put it. Despite what - according to you - what Publius says, not every bit of information is put in there as a "piece of the puzzle." Some aspects of Star Wars are just stupid. I mean, why didn't Yoda just push Anakin and Obi-Wan out of the way of the falling pillar in AotC, instead of taking precious time to stop the damn thing and move it out of the way? Was it a moral thing?
Truth is, there is no good excuse. We chalk it up to PIS.
Downplay him? I disagree. Are you downplaying the Emperor's achievements by suggesting that Count Dooku is a more accomplished master of telekinesis? I don't think so, but it's essentially the same thing. That Skywalker is a master combatant and arguably the greatest ever (a point I can concede as of LotF) doesn't mean he is infallible, even within the context of a duel. He has been critically injured by a foe who bested him through vastly superior skills at fighting and manipulation of the environment.
You yourself agreed with my theory regarding Skywalker's insecurities. TUF confirms it:
I realize, and that's twice I've said it now. But that idea should be treated selectively - the droideka incident makes absolutely no sense no matter how you spin it, and point was that not everything that transpires in the SW saga has a reasonable in-universe explanation, so it's foolish to try and place some of the more ridiculous things into a coherent theory.
Again, Yoda in AotC. How does that make sense?
The only way it works is through suspension of disbelief by the reader/viewer and acknowledgement of the workings of PIS.
Of course, not everything in the saga has an explanation. But that isn't the issue. You (not I) are making this more about the droideka incident. I've simply listed it as one of many examples of Luke not being as cosmic as people say he is. He is fallible and he is insecure and it impacts his performance in combat. That is the issue and that has been proven.
is he the only character we have to move off a pedastel to give them all context? i would pick DE sidious as another example of an overhyped character.
One other question: when comparing these characters, do we take into account the discrepancy between different kinds of canon? Comic books, and cartoons have a completely different level of achievements in them than movies or novels. (movies with the lowest level, IMO) A character completely in the comic books, or the cartoons would therefore seemingly have an insane power edge over a character who appeared only in one of the Saga movies. Do we consider this when ranking their accomplishements?
A very good question. I would say that the answer would be no. Consider the awe-inspiring feats of General Rahm Kota. He was able to casually deflect Sith lightning as delivered by Starkiller, but also redirected the psuedo-Sith's telekinesis at whim. Moreover, he was also capable of using the Force on such a massive, reactive scale that it sent the TIE Fighter Construction facility into critical condition. However, it is implied by Lord Vader that Kota himself was no match for Shaak Ti, a Council member. While I'd hesitate to say that all or most of the PT Jedi are superior to Kota, I would imagine that most of the Council was by a good tier or two. In the movies, Windu and Palpatine display an alarming level of slowness in their duel. Does that mean that they are slow? No. In fact, both of them are lauded for prowess and speed.
We simply need to take everything into consideration. I would now like to have final assessments of Luke Skywalker from everyone who wishes to speak on what level they'd place him.
Well, i would still put him at the top of the charts. I assume we are going to rank his LOTF incarnation for the official rankings? I will admit he COULD lose. Just as Sidious COULD HAVE lost to Galen if Sidious had hit his head when thrown across the room and been knocked unconcious. But he probably wouldn't lose, regardless of the opponent. Now when you start ganging him up against multiple opponents, that changes quickly, but i would still put him on top.
However, if ONE person disagrees with Luke being on top, we would really need to discuss the character they propose be above him before we can put Luke on top. I would propose, that of this moment, luke goes to the top of our discussed list by default, (only one we've discussed) then we can re-rank him after the second character, and consider only the both of them, and so on until all characters are ranked. It is unfair to go ahead and give luke a rank when only HIS strengths and weaknesses have been brought to recent and detailed light.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I spent so long trying to edit my post that i couldn't anymore, so...: Here's about half of what i meant to post. (put this between the two paragraphs and you get what i meant to say...)
My final assessment of him would be: Nearly limitless potential, and fighting ability when unleashed, seems to hold himself in check much of the time, so that ability does not come through. He came into that ability between the JA series, (being stalemated by desann) and the beginning of NJO, continued to progress up until his KNOWN "coming out" in TUF, and has increased in ability almost exponentially throughout Dark nest, and LOTF. He is now to the point of peerlessness in the CURRENT star wars universe that authors decline to let him clean up the messes anymore, starting with TUF, and continuing through LOTF. (Though he was the combatant who defeated Raynar Thul (without showing too much effort, if i may remind everyone)
We obviously DON'T know the extent of his force knowledge, though it is doubtful he knows as much as the masters of old, who were actually taught it, it is possible he knows much that they never did. Remember, they thought of the shatterpoint ability as a "Gift" (in Shatterpoint) while Luke has learned it is a taught skill that he taught to Jaina in an afternoon. The author's also hint there is much we don't know about his knowledge when they show Jaina's surprise at what he can do. They never explain exactly HOW he disappeared from the force, convincing everyone he was dead, remember, the Jedi knew when someone had just left the force,(Ben, Mara, Jacen, etc) what Luke did was different (Even Jacen thought he was dead, even Leia, his twin)
They never explain his force illusions that so badly misled Jacen( NEVER seen before, by ANYONE in the star wars universe) (i'm talking about his rewriting Jacen's visions to be whatever luke wanted him to see) So luke's force Knowledge is at least ON-PAR with ANY KNOWN knowledge, though it may not be the same knowledge possessed by the ancient sith and jedi. Different is not necessarily less.
I'll point out again that luke is the only top tier force user we still have who is currently undefeated. Every one of the ancient sith, and jedi were ultimately killed by SOMEBODY. (or yoda, defeated, forced to retreat) So the force is obviously with Skywalker, who plants himself in the middle of Galatic Conflict after Galactic conflict, probably more such harm way than any known force user in the entire history of the galaxy.
(the only way you'll change my mind on that is if you can count up more conflicts for some other character than there have been for luke, and you won't. Now you might say its because he's the main character, so the author's are biased. That won't matter, because what the author's say is canon, whether it is fair or not.)
So in conclusion: I would give Luke the top rank in the star wars universe, at the end of LOTF by a decent margin. That margin can be discussed fairly only after discussing other characters however.
Sep 4th, 2008 03:38 AM
