did Tobin quote that Nihilus pulled the whole fleet off the world with the force then? I just wonder how he knew that. (or any of it for that matter, wasn't he on Onduron or whereever it is that you rescue the queen (probably been 3 years for me since i played that last) If he was there, how did he know Nihilus lifted the fleet? Nihilus doesn't seem liek the sit down and chat kind of person really.
in answer to your question: I would assume some kind of tractor beam. since he pulled it out of a gravity well, i would be assuming that he had escaped the planet's surface prior to that: but i would almost be willing to give him the flagship with the force, and then it wouldn't be too much of a stress to say he pulled out the rest, but i would stress it happened one at a time. If it was one at a time, it wouldn't be on the same scale as what happened in the JA trilogy.
Yes, he said that about the fleet. I think the game designers were just trying to tell us what happened through Tobin. I'm not saying that Tobin was there, but consider that he has intimate knowledge about Nihilus and the Force. Insofar that he can explain Nihilus' perception of normal beings, knows exactly how Nihilus' 'hunger' works in detail, and so on.
He should be regarded as trustworthy and reliable in this case, especially because of what Canderous had to say. Whether he pulled them all at once is debatable, I guess...but it's safe to logically conclude Nihilus did simply use the Force for both rather than a tractor beam.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
That does not make Palpatine look any less good. I don't think lifting Ravager and a few other ships quite compare to reducing entire star ships to dust. I say it makes Palpatine look even more good, seeing how he is the most powerful sith in history, so if Nihilus can lift a star ship just imagine what Palpatine can do with tk.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
Account Restricted
Now thinking about it, i am convinced that nihilus did lift the ravager. However, weather it was done with ease or with much difficulty has yet to be known.
But i am still not convinced that he lifted a "fleet" because of several reasons.
1) Why would he want his fleet to be consisted of shitty damaged ships that would get torn apart so easily? I mean he himself is already holding one ship alone, whos holding the other damaged ones?
2) The loading screen stated he hauled the ravager for the sole purpose of escaping so why waste time lifting other ships and spending so much energy?
3)We never see this "fleet"
(If you are referring to the telos IV battle with several other sith warships, note that they look new and had they actually been smashed onto the surface of malachor V or in the gravity well, they would have shown extreme exterior damage and look like the ravager).
So there you go sir enyalus, i have certainly shut up about him not lifting a ship BUT i still have doubts about him lifting a fleet.
Seeing as he did it instantly, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by pointing that out. Even assuming it did strain him, the fact that he was able to withstand the pressure and lift it out of orbit compliments his immense power even more.
I wouldn't exactly say it matters whether or not you are convinced by evidence. Since the evidence speaks for itself (literally). Mandalore was present at the battle and he recognized that the ships were from Malachor V. That alone proves it. It is further made clear by Colonel Tobin, who like I said, is more knowledgeable on the Nihilus and the Force than almost every non-Force sensitive that ever lived.
1) Who said that any of the other ships were damaged beyond the point of repair? Indeed, the only logical conclusion is that he had them repaired for battle. Your third point actually supports that.
2) Mandalore comments that he's a "scavenger". We're also dealing with a guy who can TK a massive ship into orbit, hold it together in hyperspace, and pwn entire worlds; it's safe to assume he didn't have to expend that much energy or time.
The loading screen doesn't say for the "sole" reason. Let's not start making things up now. It also doesn't mention that the Jedi Exile went to the bathroom...I guess since a loading screen didn't say it, it didn't happen.
3) See point 1; this can be explained away by repair, as Nihilus does come into contact with people who could do that.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Sep 15th, 2008 at 01:37 PM
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
Account Restricted
Where was it shown that he did it "instantly" and with "relative ease"?
Just look at the ravager, the ship itself is already beyond a state of repair, now why?
Other than being constantly shot by other ships, it, had been slammed into malachor V's gravity well at full force when the mass shadow generator(along with the planets gravity) was activated, any other smaller ship would had been disintigrated by the sheer force of the impact, so i don't see how those ships would had survived or be in a repairable state.
Comments? What about assumed that nihilus is a scavenger?
And how does this prove that he did it with "not much energy"? Yoda himself could lift mountains in the CW cartoons yet he had strained while trying to stop a pillar from collapsing on anakin and obi wan.
My point is, just because nihilus performed those uber feats, how does that exactly prove he lifted the ship with ease? He didn't pwn a world with TK, neither could he kill the exiles party with TK.
I misinterpreted it then, my apologies.
I doubt that those ships could even be repaired, see my first point, besides there were still sith warships that survived the jedi civil war and the the battle of malachor, not every ship was destroyed so i don't see why those weren't the ships at the battle of telos IV.
There is also the possibility that his "fleet" could even consist of the squadron of sith fighters swirling around his ship
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
Account Restricted
Sorry for double post.
If he DID lift the fleet(which would be the same time as him lifting the ravager presumably), who was there at that particular time to repair the ships he lifted? I don't recall enough manpower alive on malachor V after the battle to repair any ships that nihilus supposidly lifted.
OR his fleet could have consisted of ships that orbited malachor V (watch the malachor V arrival or listen to kreia stating there are working ships in orbit) that were not caught by the MSG and smashed to pieces on the planet surfaces, i see another possibility that he and his troup of goons scavanged what ever ship that was orbiting the planet(the repairable and usable ones at least) AFTER nihilus gets enough manpower (which would be much later after lifting the ravager).
^ This would be substantiated by him being labelled a "scavenger" by mandalore.
Last edited by BoratBorat on Sep 15th, 2008 at 02:21 PM
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Every other feat of TK ever displayed was pretty much instantly, and didn't take hours or days at a time to perform. This should follow suit. With the 'relative ease' part...does it matter? 99% of everyone else in the Mythos wouldn't be able to pull it off at all. So IMO its irrelevant.
No, it could have easily been repaired. Nihilus chose not to, as I think it fit his personality. It was more like a status symbol. The Ravager was very distinct. Everyone knew what it looked like.
Proof of this? We know smaller ships were pulled down to Malachor's surface and torn apart, because pieces of the ships were found in the earth. That could've been from impact. Suppose the gravity well was activated, all the ships were pulled down and crushed, but Nihilus used his TK to keep them levitating above the surface so there wasn't an impact. Very possible.
The feats in the cartoon and in TFU are purposely exaggerated. KOTOR II is not. Moreover, he could have killed the Exile's party with utter ease. He put all three in Force Stasis immediately and could have ran each of them through with his lightsaber or whatever. He didn't want to kill Visas, and Mandalore was insignificant. He wanted to drain the Exile and could not, due to her nature.
He doesn't have to repair the fleet's ships immediately. He holds the Ravager together with his raw power. The rest of the ships in his fleet are smaller, and thus, he might have held them together as well until they went back to Onderon.
Moreover, we have three credible sources confirming he lifted the fleet along with his capital ship. Tobin, Canderous, and Mandalore - the latter two were actually present at the Battle of Malachor...and when does a Mandalorian ever lie?
If he does lift the entire fleet plus his capital ship from the gravity well, that's gotta be considered a much higher TK feat than Luke's manipulation of one dovin basil or Kyp's 4-5. *nod*
One thing, Enyalus: Canderous and Mandalore are actually the same person. Every thing else was perfect, you just had to ruin it.
Right here:
And I don't recall ever mentioning the phrase "relative ease", so why is it in quotations?
Like I said, if he had to exert himself, then it still speaks volumes for his power. The strain that he would be under would have been immense and he still withstood all that for the some thousands of miles it would take to get into orbit.
Like Enyalus said, it's largely irrelevant either way.
It would be. But that's being selective with the evidence. You're excluding Tobin's dialogue, which specifically states Nihilus used the Force to hoist both his ship and his fleet from the "mass shadows" by himself ("that is a measure of his power").
Have you even looked at your own points, Schwarzenegger?
"However, weather it was done with ease or with much difficulty has yet to be known."
"The loading screen stated he hauled the ravager for the sole purpose of escaping so why waste time lifting other ships and spending so much energy?"
If he did it with ease, he wouldn't be expending that much energy. Now, I was pointing out that Nihilus' power, like Visas and everyone else said, was in general unimaginable. From what we know, it's unlikely that he would need to drain himself for a feat like this. I didn't say it exactly proved a damn thing. L2Read.
How many starships have you actually worked on again? Look at Enyalus' 3rd point complimented by my 2nd point and this doesn't have a leg to stand on.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Understanding the premise that I have never come close to beating that damn game, allow me to get this straight: you're telling us that you are suggesting that we ought to take the word of an individual who has been mentally corrupted and held in thrall by Nihilus as an objective indicator of his power? If that is the case, then are we to allow Kreia's fellating statements regarding Revan to be considered the gospel? Or the New Essential Chronology's statement regarding Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord ever (stronger, then, than Nihilus) by the prequel trilogy? Since, clearly, they are also trying to deliver exposition and narrative through the story without a Patented Big Booming Voice speaking.
I'm not mocking, but I'm curious. Because it seems to me, if you allow one, you're obligated to allow them all.
Most of us do not. And those of us who do are morons. You will not see me hurl that quote out there by itself as an objective indicator of the Emperor's ability. Therein lies my argument, Faunus, as it has always been. When it comes to quotes, Nebaris or Nai might bring one or two. I bring an army.
...What? That doesn't make much of any sense, Gideon. That's like saying we should allow anyone who has an opinion be a trusted witness in a murder trial and take what they say as accurate. In the case of the NEC--you have a Force sensitive that could never accurately gauge power of the Sith Lords of old in comparison to Palpatine; especially considering a millenia of Sith history is largely unexplored.
Kreia's remarks are also notoriously ambiguous and she is an established liar. This isn't the case with Colonel Tobin at all. In fact, Tobin actually calls her out on lying and scolds the Exile for being untruthful at one point.
That said, it's clear that Tobin is not stating an in-universe opinion, but an in-universe fact--one that is supported by an out-of-universe source. He knew where the Ravager came from, but he was wrong about his fleet? That's illogical at best, especially since Canderous was present at the Battle of Malachor V and is the Exile's party member (and trusted her enough to reveal his true identity, etc.) and confirms that his fleet consisted of ships from the planet. Commenting on this despite the fact Tobin never uttered a word about the whole fleet ordeal. All the evidence points to Tobin being 100% correct and trustworthy enough on that particular issue.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Last edited by Advent on Sep 15th, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Remember: this is a discussion, not a debate. I am ignorant of the game and am merely probing for details.
It does make sense. From the looks of it, you were wanting us to except Tobin's testimony on the fact that he was clearly being used as a conduit by the game designers to give the audience exposition regarding Nihilus's power -- something that all in universe thoughts and documentations are used to do -- to convey the thoughts of the author regarding a person or event, but on a personal level. That makes him no greater a source than Kreia or tNEC.
Notoriously ambiguous? How so? And she is fallible solely because of her status as a liar? Tobin is not? And how do you know for certain? The fact that he "calls her out" for lying is irrelevant; Palpatine exploits and brings to light the deception of the Jedi Council to Anakin. Does that make him an honest man?
But that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is you suggesting that Tobin's validity as a source be based (partially or otherwise) on the fact that he's clearly trying to convey the thoughts of the game designers, that he hasn't been proven to be a liar, and that he possesses intimate knowledge of Nihilus's workings.
Well, tNEC accounts for the first: it's a chronology given as an in-universe source for the same reason. Second, it hasn't proven to be blatantly dishonest or the intent of lying. Third, it possesses immensely intimate knowledge about events -- pertaining to the Emperor's motives, thoughts, and schemes. Lastly, as an in-universe source, it is the recording of a historical council of a galactic hyperpower. Far, far, far greater than the beliefs of one broken, semi-corrupted man.
The conclusion being: if those are your qualifications for Tobin's validity, there are other sources who meet them in excess.
Sep 14th, 2008 05:30 AM
