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Ryu and Terry Bogard VS Shin Akuma and Zangief
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Sado22
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i was wondering where you went, DC. got any of those weirdass gouki vids? laughing out loud
quote:
Yes he did, Gouken and Goutetsu were both killed by Gouki by SGS.

not really. do you have proof of this because IIRC Gouki just pummeled him and killed him.

quote:
As for his "aim", I mentioned several times in my previous debate with Terry that his Shakunetsu-gouhadoukens in the anime trailer were not meant to hit Ryu in the first place - rather they were there to just spite him. Basically at that point Ryu was facedown in the dirt, pwned in other words, and Gouki took the opportunity to fly around happily to make fun of him by throwing fireballs around him.

quite a way to beg for attention. i've heard of destructive tantrums, but damn. i think if he really did that with the "picks him up and throws him aside like a rag doll". from what i saw, it seems the hadoukens spirralled out of his control the moment he let go of them. unless you have a way of proving that the hadoukens are under his control even after he lets go of them. or maybe he's so experienced with hadoukens that he can spin and swing them like baseball pitcher.

quote:
-Misogi (Works differently, but similar enough)

that's a karate chop. i know what you're getting at but i'm talking impaling a person i.e. stab them with your fingers.

quote:
Ashura Senpuu Kyaku

dude, i'm not comparing jinpachi with akuma in that sense. i'm listing the things that jinpachi can do in terms of feats cuz Dark-jaxx insists that jinpachi has no feats.

quote:
Well, they're different fireballs. As you said in a previous debate - I forget which, the hadoukens in Street Fighter are not meant to be fireballs, despite a lot of common people's misconceptions.
They're meant to be ki focused as energy to emulate a blow. Tiamat's guide listed the Hadouken as feeling like a very well-placed straight kick.
Focused ki energy vs real fireballs, obviously there will be a difference. The two can't really be compared, they're in separate leagues

like i said, i'm not comparing him to akuma as much as listing his feats. Dark-jaxx (too many "darks" here goddamnit, i'm getting confused! mad ) said that he has no feats and i'm telling him otherwise.

quote:
It was "spineless coward", not pathetic weakling, there's a big difference.

my bad.

quote:
Gouki HAD Ryu beaten. Ryu's facedown in the dirt and unable to move, I think that's a pretty clear sign of an asskicking

ditto.
only ryu winds up doing the "hogan routine" laughing out loud

quote:
He could have easily killed Ryu if he wanted to, but he senses the hidden potential behind Ryu that would make him a worthy challenger. The mentality between Ryu and Gouki is very common knowledge to followers of the SF story by now. As Jayct and Dark Jaxx said, Gouki is trying to force Ryu to embrace the Satsui no Hadou, as to become a worthy foe to fight. However, Ryu refuses to - hence the use of "spineless coward" - despite getting a huge beating and causes Gouki to become continually frustrated by his refusal to tap into his hidden potential. Before Gouki sunk his island with Ryu on it, he taunts Ryu and says it himself, even.

yeah, i know that. its the dark-hadou that gouki's after. but ryu's given up on it and if you notice gouki has nothing to do with ryu in SF3 which is a coupla years after SF4. in SF4 we see him kick the living tar out of ryu so as far as we can tell, it pretty much shows their last encounter before akuma decides to have nothing to do with him.
[Note: their meeting in SF3 and SF3 3rd strike were noncanon]

~Sado

Old Post Oct 16th, 2008 05:19 PM
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DarkC
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You mean the parody ones, nah...he gets boring after you figure out how to stop time.


That's weird - I've always remembered that Gouken was killed by SGS, but scanning the Tiamat guide reveals nothing on that. However considering the way Gouki regarded his brother, it's a very likely option anyway that he did. He killed his master for less.

I've never been 100% clear on whether that movie was completely from the new SF4, or maybe an older event. Judging from the way Gouki was treating Ryu there, it's pretty clear that he hasn't completely given up on the younger fighter, but as you can see he's getting pretty damn frustrated by now.


As for the Hadouken part of the movie...I don't think we generally see a sequence where you actually see the fireball leaving his hand, travelling, and then impact - all in one - so we can't really tell. What we do see is one or the other, what I think is that he doesn't care where he throws 'em, just as long as they don't accidentally kill or maim Ryu.


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Old Post Oct 16th, 2008 09:39 PM
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quote:
You mean the parody ones, nah...he gets boring after you figure out how to stop time.

laughing out loud

quote:
That's weird - I've always remembered that Gouken was killed by SGS, but scanning the Tiamat guide reveals nothing on that. However considering the way Gouki regarded his brother, it's a very likely option anyway that he did. He killed his master for less.

probably. me, i'd personally not say something that's not canonically stated. of course, he could have killed him with the SGS but if you look at Ken's profile, it says that he saw gouki deliver the "final blow" to gouken. to me it seems that it wasn't the SGS.

quote:
I've never been 100% clear on whether that movie was completely from the new SF4, or maybe an older event. Judging from the way Gouki was treating Ryu there, it's pretty clear that he hasn't completely given up on the younger fighter, but as you can see he's getting pretty damn frustrated by now.

well, judging by the fact that ryu had black hair in that i'd assume it was around SF4 timeline. ironicaly, ryu's hair get darker with age and since they werne't brown we can sure that it wasn't during SF2 becuase ryu had brown hair in Sf2.

quote:
As for the Hadouken part of the movie...I don't think we generally see a sequence where you actually see the fireball leaving his hand, travelling, and then impact - all in one - so we can't really tell. What we do see is one or the other, what I think is that he doesn't care where he throws 'em, just as long as they don't accidentally kill or maim Ryu.

*shrug* who knows

~Sado

Old Post Oct 17th, 2008 09:49 AM
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DarkC
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I read that part too, which was confusing to me; Gouki's choice of killing would have most definitely been the Shungokusatsu as proven when he uses it on everyone he deems "worthy", and Gouken would be worthy since he beat him in round one. You're right that it doesn't sound a whole lot like SGS, but it doesn't make much sense either to say it wasn't. You either have Gouki not acting like Gouki or the SGS not acting like the SGS, either option is too strange.


I've noticed that too. Unless it's an official statement and not an assumption that his hair grows darker with age it doesn't really hold that much weight. Besides, SF3 Ryu's hair is jet black while SF4 it's chestnut.


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Old Post Oct 17th, 2008 10:24 AM
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quote:
I read that part too, which was confusing to me; Gouki's choice of killing would have most definitely been the Shungokusatsu as proven when he uses it on everyone he deems "worthy", and Gouken would be worthy since he beat him in round one. You're right that it doesn't sound a whole lot like SGS, but it doesn't make much sense either to say it wasn't. You either have Gouki not acting like Gouki or the SGS not acting like the SGS, either option is too strange.

exactly. he did it to Gen and he did it to Goutetsu. so he probably did it to Gouken too. however, there is another bit to it. storywise and according to Tiamat, Gouken was past his prime then and had gone on in years. he had already been beaten by Bison some time back and from what we know Akuma>Bison. thus, the only possible explanation without making it look strange would be that though Gouken was a great warrior, the fact that he had gotten on in years meant that gouki didn't need to go all out. thus, he just smacked the poor guy around till he died....as cruel as that sounds laughing out loud

quote:
've noticed that too. Unless it's an official statement and not an assumption that his hair grows darker with age it doesn't really hold that much weight. Besides, SF3 Ryu's hair is jet black while SF4 it's chestnut.

it was chestnut in the SF4 vid? i think i need to see a better quality. in-game it was black though right? unless i'm seeing things which isn't a good thing sad

~Sado

Old Post Oct 17th, 2008 12:13 PM
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DarkC
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Well, Bison did get cheapshotted by Akuma through and through. I'm not sure how long it took between the time that Gouken first had a victory over Akuma and between the time that he came back and killed his brother.



And yeah it was like jet-black in-game, but like really deep mahogany in the character select screen.


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Old Post Oct 18th, 2008 12:33 PM
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quote:
Well, Bison did get cheapshotted by Akuma through and through. I'm not sure how long it took between the time that Gouken first had a victory over Akuma and between the time that he came back and killed his brother.

i would say not so long actually. apparently bison came looking for the heir of ansatsuken karate but ryu wasn't there so he smacked around gouken instead. i'd assume it was very little....on top of that there is the possibility that ryu was away for Sf1 at the time.
man, it'd suck for gouken to be beaten back to back in a matter of days laughing

Old Post Oct 18th, 2008 05:15 PM
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Zangief is useless here. I'm siding with the second team, but there's a possibility of Ryu and Terry winning.

Old Post Oct 18th, 2008 08:13 PM
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against....g....g.....GOD?!!!!?! eek!

Old Post Oct 19th, 2008 11:22 AM
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No, Gouki, but I guess you can say he's god of SF, since he's the SF version of the devil and the devil is somewhat like God.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 04:34 AM
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...Gouki is the SF version of the devil?


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 10:19 AM
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gouki aint evil. he's morally ambigious but he aint evil. he just follows his own warrior code and he didn't murder gouken and goutetsu as much as slay them in a mortal combat which is what warriors do. unfortunately ambigious is one word that doesn't seem to be processable for folks in america. so you either have EVIL character (hence the name Akuma=Devil) or you have good guy (Ryu).
lame......

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 11:38 AM
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Ya know, on the question of Street Fighter characters, I've actually talked to a few people about was the speed of the projectiles in Street Fighter.

Although we do not have a Capcom statisics "break down" of how fast projectiles are, it is assumed, that they have to be very fast in order for them to be effective (some of us have been talking about this at srk.com on the official canon guide btw), because as confirmed, that someone like Ryu is very capable of dodging bullets with ease, so one would believe then that a projectile traveling slower then a bullet would really be useless up against some of Ryu's caliber. Simply for the fact that he would easily be able to avoid it as well, which does make alot of logic if Ryu's zipping past bullets.

So I happen to bring it up at the canon guide talk thread at srk and thus far I have been told that the Sonic Boom (Guile and Charlie's Projectile) is actually the Fastest Projectile in the entire Street Fighter Storyline. It is said to travel much, much greater then the speed of sound and the average speed sound or estimated for it is roughly around 767 mph, which the Sonic Boom is stated to easily go beyond.

A bullet from a 9mm travels at an average speed of 681.8 mph in which Ryu can easily dodge, so by my assumptions (since I am still waiting for a reply), that other projectiles would have to be faster then that in order for it to be effective up against someone like Ryu. Another notion that I have feel needs to be said is also that if someone of Ryu's caliber is capable of such a feat, wouldn't Ken be also? Almost definitely Gouki should be capable of such a feat as well, if someone such as Ryu who ability wise has yet to attain his status.

Which leaves me to think that since Guile's Sonic Boom is the fastest in the world of Street Fighter (thus far), that the projectile speed for some characters would be faster then the bullet speed of a 9mm at 681.8 mph, while being slower then the Sonic Boom itself which easily surpasses the speed of sound.

This would indicate why in the Ryu vs Gouki Trailer, Gouki's projectile was traveling so fast that you didn't see anything else, other then the impact crater.

Speeds of the projectiles in SF has just been currently brought up by me, so we'll see how it gets answered or broken down into canonical talk. It's interesting, but hopefully Vasil (the one who has helped to write the guide) replies to me within the thread at srk as well, as he most likely will, as well as a few others.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 02:24 PM
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quote:
Although we do not have a Capcom statisics "break down" of how fast projectiles are, it is assumed, that they have to be very fast in order for them to be effective (some of us have been talking about this at srk.com on the official canon guide btw), because as confirmed, that someone like Ryu is very capable of dodging bullets with ease, so one would believe then that a projectile traveling slower then a bullet would really be useless up against some of Ryu's caliber. Simply for the fact that he would easily be able to avoid it as well, which does make alot of logic if Ryu's zipping past bullets.

if that was the case then ryu wouldn't even get punched in the face since "he can dodge bullets". that's A>B>C logic and it won't get you anywhere.
on top of that, the speed of the projectiles has never been explored but from the video of SF4, it didn't look like it was that fast at all....definitely not faster than bullets. and notice that it was Gouki doing it and the ones he did was the shakuunetsu hadouken which is supposed to be a stronger version of hadouken. it also had gravity on its side but it STILL wasn't faster than a bullet.
no dice.

quote:
So I happen to bring it up at the canon guide talk thread at srk and thus far I have been told that the Sonic Boom (Guile and Charlie's Projectile) is actually the Fastest Projectile in the entire Street Fighter Storyline. It is said to travel much, much greater then the speed of sound and the average speed sound or estimated for it is roughly around 767 mph, which the Sonic Boom is stated to easily go beyond.

sonic boom is the strongest and fastest projectile in SF.

quote:
A bullet from a 9mm travels at an average speed of 681.8 mph in which Ryu can easily dodge, so by my assumptions (since I am still waiting for a reply), that other projectiles would have to be faster then that in order for it to be effective up against someone like Ryu.

nope. otherwise you mgiht as well suggest that ryu's is untouchable by punches but he's been hit by far slower things. on top of that, Capcom said ryu can dodge bullets but it didn' say HOW he can dodge them. if he can predict where the gunshot is coming from then its not a big deal. it also isnt' a big deal if he's at a relatively good distance. Julia Chang was able to evade direct gunshots at a few paces away in her Tekken4 ending. ryu's can dodge bullets but he's been hit with far less in terms of speed. in SF4 we see him sock one blow after another from ken and ken wasn't moving faster than a bullet.

quote:
Another notion that I have feel needs to be said is also that if someone of Ryu's caliber is capable of such a feat, wouldn't Ken be also? Almost definitely Gouki should be capable of such a feat as well, if someone such as Ryu who ability wise has yet to attain his status.

true. ken is only faster than ryu so he should be able to pull it off.

quote:
Which leaves me to think that since Guile's Sonic Boom is the fastest in the world of Street Fighter (thus far), that the projectile speed for some characters would be faster then the bullet speed of a 9mm at 681.8 mph, while being slower then the Sonic Boom itself which easily surpasses the speed of sound.

yes, hence the name.

quote:
This would indicate why in the Ryu vs Gouki Trailer, Gouki's projectile was traveling so fast that you didn't see anything else, other then the impact crater.

......then you should watch it again no expression

~Sado

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 05:14 PM
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quote:
This would indicate why in the Ryu vs Gouki Trailer, Gouki's projectile was traveling so fast that you didn't see anything else, other then the impact crater.


this one is funny. laughing out loud


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 05:32 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sado22
gouki aint evil. he's morally ambigious but he aint evil. he just follows his own warrior code and he didn't murder gouken and goutetsu as much as slay them in a mortal combat which is what warriors do. unfortunately ambigious is one word that doesn't seem to be processable for folks in america. so you either have EVIL character (hence the name Akuma=Devil) or you have good guy (Ryu).
lame......
Well Gouki from a "normal" point of view would be evil, but I think it is better to say that his own set of morals are different than the normal. He refused to continue fighting Gen when he realised he was chronically ill for instance.

Also, it was never said he can predict where the gunners are going to fire and more out of the way effortless, it was said he can dodge bullets effortlessly.


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 07:55 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sado22
~snip~


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iftzupWMFc

From 43-45 seconds, please, show me where you see the projectile "streaking" downward before making the initial impact crater explosion?

So please sit down and stop gasping your own personal "theories" and listen...

Finally after getting some answers from Vasil, and others as well, it has been noted that yes, projectiles ARE indeed that fast in the SF World.

The problem that Vasil has stated though, is that the Sonic Boom in reality can be calculated and someone was nice enough to post the speeds of the Sonic Boom in DeeJay's Max Out...

Sonic Boom

Mach 2

F16 Jet

Speed at altitude

Mach 2 ( 1,500 mph )

Max Out

761 mph ( the speed of sound)

You have to be SUPER FAST to be able to dodge Guile's Sonic Boom, and Deejay's Max out is the Speed of Sound, making it ridiculous already.

However, the problem comes with estimating the speed of the Hadouken, because it is faster then the speed of sound, however gauging it's speed is difficult due to the fact that its a sprititual thing, however in Vasil's own words, let me quote...

This was my statement...

"I've always been curious about how fast the projectiles in Street Fighter travel? I mean, in the canon it states that Ryu is very capable of dodging bullets "however" if he's fast enough to react to the speed of bullets, then would this also translate to the speed of the projectiles as well, like say the Hadouken."

This was Vasil's direct answer below...

"Definitely. In the SF2AM while Ryu's fighting a brainwashed Ken, at one point Ryu's on the ground and just barely has time to roll away from the incoming projectile that Ken throws at him from above. All attack projectiles travel quite fast like material projectiles do(eg. firearm bullets), and the sonic boom's most likely the swiftest as Ultima pointed out, and animes thus far have portrayed it that way. The thing is with determining how fast they actually travel, a sonic boom is a real world application translated to the SF universe, and we're capable of analyzing it, but projectiles composed of ki, are a different story. They give off a light, but we don't know whether they behave more in regards to light waves or light particles. That's why the hadouken for instance, is such a mystery, for hadou meaning wave motion or surge behaves like a particle when fired as a projectile. It's no easy task to quantify collected "spirit", when one doesn't know much about it except for how to harness it."

Roughly put, all in the all, projectiles in the world of Street Fighter are extremely fast.

However, again, what you seemingly state as "fact" for "how fast they fight", is actually scrutinized considering Capcom has never stated how fast they could throw out punches and or kicks. Remember, that if your "watching an anime", they usually try to slow things down so that people can actually see it happen.

We see this in DBZ all the time, when we know full well, that they are fighting faster then the human eye can see.

Now, I am not saying that SF characters like Ryu are moving at like DBZ like speeds, which is ridiculous. However, it isn't necessarily off to say that they are fighting at a much greater and faster pace that we originally would have believed or thought. However the sheer speed of the projectiles in SF are very, very real.

To how fast the SF characters would have fought I am trying to get some answers and open discussions about, however, if you really disagree with the statements of the speed of the projectiles...please, come on srk.com and post your "disagreement".

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 08:32 PM
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two things:
-0:35 to o:37 we see the full motion of projectiles travelling. clearly. no bullet speed. far, far less.
-anime depictions are not canonical
-as for sonic boom and the other one, yes because capcom has said that sonic boom is supersonic.

quote:
this one is funny

i know laughing out loud

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2008 10:07 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sado22
two things:
-0:35 to o:37 we see the full motion of projectiles travelling. clearly. no bullet speed. far, far less.


35-37 is made on purpose to be shown because it wouldn't be dramatic if we couldn't see it...any smart person knows this, DBZ fireballs travel 2093482309428 Times faster yet why do we see it then? roll eyes (sarcastic) I guess your eyes went blind around 43-45 though right?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sado22
-anime depictions are not canonical


This is from SF:IV not some "spin off", so the chances of this scene being canon is very possible.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sado22
-as for sonic boom and the other one, yes because capcom has said that sonic boom is supersonic.


The only intelligent comment you've made so far, and for crying out loud, it's a Max Out...not "other one"...do you know SF?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sado22
i know laughing out loud


43-45 laughing out loud

Old Post Oct 23rd, 2008 04:57 AM
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quote:
35-37 is made on purpose to be shown because it wouldn't be dramatic if we couldn't see it...any smart person knows this, DBZ fireballs travel 2093482309428 Times faster yet why do we see it then? I guess your eyes went blind around 43-45 though right?

stop being foolish. there were several ways they could've shown it if they wanted to show how fast it was. but they didn't. we saw a perfect example of the hadouken travelling at its regular speed. any smart person would tell you that you're being foolish. we're talking about speed and we clearly see the hadouken and see that it was fast but not faster than a bullet. not by a long shot. and what happened to your eyes when gouki did the messatsuhadouken? did you not see the hadoukens travel?
and keep DBZ out of this. it is irrelevent unless you ahve proof that SF was spoofing them.

quote:
This is from SF:IV not some "spin off", so the chances of this scene being canon is very possible.

oh, my bad then. but IIRC that person you quoted was makign references to SF2AM.

quote:
The only intelligent comment you've made so far, and for crying out loud, it's a Max Out...not "other one"...do you know SF?

i remember a time when brainchild/i-drop said i was one of the most reasonable people on KMC. the trick was, he thought that only as long as i agree with him. i see a similar pattern here. so it is intelligent if someone agrees with you......even though i'm stating a fact.
and i said "other one" cuz i couldn't be bothered. dah.

quote:
43-45

35-37 AND the messatsuhadouken part laughing out loud

Old Post Oct 23rd, 2008 05:38 AM
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