He has countless more feats than Lich King, yet you debate in benefit of Lich King numerous times against many foes, many very powerful and that has feats of their own. You are not in a position to say a character can not be in a debate for not having sufficient solid feats to back everything up.
Becci, I would like to apologise for my rudeness and mockery in the previous post, I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl or that you were stupid.
1. But what feats are better than Pyron's?
2. Only Pyron himself is about as large and more powerful than the dimension Jedah destroyed. And...Pretty much everyone and their mother can travel dimensions in Nosgoth, as can Pyron, hell, Pyron can see past dimensional walls.
3. I did not mean to imply you were a fangirl, and for that I am sorry.
You are right, I do not.
But here is the thing, magic is a term that gets thrown around alot, but all it truly is is a title. If one character can do most of the same things a character who uses magic to do it can, why should the magic-user be treated superior? The idea that Pyron is nothing more than a really big muscle-bound brute is a gross oversimplification and is highly inaccurate, he has much more versatility and intelligence than he is given credit for.
4. I assumed that since you were bringing up Arich's durability, you were using it to assert that Sargeras was invulnerable. But what durability feats does he really have out of curiosity?
5. Pyron can not only go to other dimensions, he can use his powers from other dimensions as well, such as telepathy. Pyron has outright dominated Bishamon, who could not touch Pyron's soul. But how will Sargeras fight Pyron as a spirit when he is not able to possess him? BFR how?
1. While Sargeras has never busted any planets, he has done some things that are impressive. Pyron may be raw power with some fancy options, but Sargeras is much more than a powerhouse.
- He created a new school of magic, which that alone shows his incredible powers.
- He with a snap of his fingers blessed two mortal beings with unlimited power, boundries being only within their own minds. - He has shown over and over again that he can use his spells even while not being in the same dimension.
While Pyron has better feats in his way, Sargeras has better feats in other ways. Sure they are not a match in their respective fields, but in the grand scheme, Sargeras is more potent.
2. Traveling between dimensions would not necessarily mean finding what they seek, or do so in time. Sargeras would run if he found running most suitable to the situation, and strike while keeping his distance. It is what he does. Or so says Shadow and Light. Sargeras will use dimensional doors to keep his distance, heal possible injuries whenever they occur and keep on attacking his advesaries. If a fight looks bad, he can always banish enemies from the field (BFR).
3. I know what Pyron is, and I know how overrated magic can be in many cases, but I do bring up magic in Sargeras case for a reason. He has a highly advanced telekinetical capability, but he can also absorb and manipulate energy. He has complete control over fire and heat, and complete immunity to fire and heat. He also has indirect indications of soul manipulation capabilities and very much direct feats of capability to possess powerful advesaries, and even so without them knowing. I just honestly can not imagine any more perfect forged charcter to actually beat Pyron. Not Kain, not Jedah, not Demitri, not KOS-MOS, not anyone more propriate than Sargeras
4. The only reason I brought up the Archimonde example, was because I was asked to. If you look at the post I quoted, you will see Burning Thought actually asking about Archimonde's endurance ever being stated.
The only durability feet he has, and a saddening feat it is, would be Brox swinging the axe into his leg and making a cut. I am aware that this feat is not exactly speaking in good for Sargeras, but with the exceptions of all the indestructable, immunity talk and such from sources that make references to Sargeras, the swing of Brox is the only time we have actually seen him take any sort of beating. The Sargeras Aegwynn fought was but an avatar, and can not be used as a sample of Sargeras true endurance.
So Sargeras only true endurance feat is him being cut in the leg by a green man with an overly-sized axe
5. Pyron traveling dimensions is news to me, as is the fact that Pyron has shown resilience to soul attacks. Sargeras BFR someone by more or less snap his finger, transfering his target to wherever he desire be it a different region, a different planet or a different dimension. This seems not to be a very useful ability against Pyron though, given the fact that he can travel dimensions.
1. That is the thing though, Pyron is not a being of pure raw power, he has telepathy, matter and energy manipulation, creationism, Cosmic Awareness on beyond a galactic level, the power to see in the future(may only be a product of Cosmic Awareness though), among other things. Pyron can, without really doing anything from the look of it, convert Earth into a ring, he didn't grow and have the Earth orbit his finger like I originally thought, he literally remade Earth, without harming its life forms and all, as a ring.
2. But Sargeras cannot run forever, and in Nosgoth, there is only like three dimensions I think. Pyron is much faster than Sargeras however, can let most attacks phase right through him, and can destroy every world Sargeras flees to.
3. Has his TK affected someone of Pyron's vast size and strength? He has never absorbed as much energy as Pyron's body contains, or absorbed as much energy as Pyron has to my knowledge, and his control over flames IMO won't match Pyron's, a living Cosmic fire elemental. But Pyron's soul has shown resistance against a soul stealer. Thing is, many of Sargeras' powers are not useful against Pyron, and some of which Pyron has the same powers only to a higher level.
And KOS-MOS is an overrated and overhyped piece of shit.
4. Yeah...I admit I jumped the gun on that one.
.......Lol wut? Really?
That's...Well it is kinda sad.
5. If not stopped by Demitri, he WOULD have devoured Makai as well as Earth. He has shown resilience by not only beating Bishamon, doing it effortlessly. He did not even need to attack, he only needed to power up and his energies literally separated Bishamon from his armor, which is bound by body and even soul. So Pyron, in canon, has affected the soul of a fighter, and this was while mortal mind you, not full power. Yeah, I do not think said BFR would affect Pyron or most in LOK for that matter lol.
I can, if you have any idea of the way I debate LK I usually announce beforehand my waiting for more evidence for LK and how he is undebatable, yet I contunie when you and Utrigos are invovled becaue both of you usually debate characters with few actual power designations thus turning the deabte into not what we KNOW them to have but into what we belive.
good, well you should know then how I always discount using characters we have very little clue off, when we have our trivial debates on LK vs Kiljaeden for example it does not amount to much because the charactes are no fully known, we usually use statements and tip bits of info from other sources but nothing can outline them properly like most debatable characters can be, thus making the Dark titan in a thread against more detailed characters pointless.
its pointless because you simply cannot debate it properly, if you dont know a beings specifics then you cannot prove it can win, therefore it is useless to debate the being in question.
Incorrect there is plenty of things we know about the Dark Titan and Kil'Jaeden.
Dark Titan.
Telepathy (able to commune with his servants, such as Mannoroth and Archimonde, from the Nether it should be noted that Archimonde was capable of making contact with all Eredar and Dreadlords on the battlefield during the war of the ancient and is still nothing but a flea next to sargeras)
Illusion (created a false vision of what he offered to the eredar in exchange for their obedience and then with a fraction of his power amped the Eredar leauges and leauges beyond what they previously was and yet wasn't other then fleas to Sargeras)
Invulnerability against mortal weapons, and limited immunity to immortal ones (the axe created by Cenarius for Broxigar was able to wound him, but not to any great effect based surely on the fact that it was infused with the power of Nature from Malorne, Elune and Cenarius, while the powers of the Demon Soul had no effect) as well as complete immunity to fire and fel magics.
Various magical abilities (lashed out with energy at Illidan via the portal being opened to summon him).
Able to look into the mortal realm through the eyes of a chosen servant (his "gift" to Illidan).
Cosmic knowledge (as a former Titan, Sargeras was likely aware of the existence of the malevolent Old Gods).
Ability to enter mortal bodies (remained within Aegwynn's womb for nearly a millennium) and take control of them (Medivh).
Body Flames (Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras’s body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to 50 degrees in every direction for 1,000 miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.)S&L 123-24.
His molten armor can nearly burn your eyes.S&L 124.
The strength of 100 dragons is merely a fraction of Sargeras' strength; Sund 324 his strength nearly matches the power of a portal closing.
In comparison to Sargeras, Mannoroth and Archimonde were as fleas. Sund 324 This could be a reference to either power or height.
Plenty and that is just what I can remember.
Kil'Jaeden.
Above Archimonde and Velen in magical might. Archimonde has used his power to destroy the city of Dalaran with ease, ripped the scales from a adult dragon with a gesture, the telepathy has been mentioned earlier, sufficiant magical strength to force Elune to take action to save Tyranda, Forced the aspects into saving the Band of Malfurion, Tyranda Brox and Rhonin when he was about to cast a spell that would turn them to stone, to the combined might of the aspect was required to stop Archimondes spell and Kil'Jaeden is above him, Kil'Jaeden enslaved the dreadlords and created the Lich King using his own power. Furthermore the height within the eredar is based on magical abilities, Kil'Jaeden is the heighest in a race where a ordinary Paramount spell can destroy a planet.
To say that neither of these Characters are known is a understatement.
But I will hold your statement close to my heart the next time Scion Kain is in question...
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Last edited by Utrigita on Sep 20th, 2008 at 07:23 AM
No its not, none of those things youve listed apart from ripping scales from a dragon are relvent when you look at the character, Sargeras is still unkown, because the things youve listed dont speak detailed on his actual powersl, what he can really do, what he actually does in a battle and how much he can really take from various things, if a small axe regardless of its nature power (none of those who enchanted it are near even Kiljaeden leauge, praps not even Archimonde) then obviously he has very little endurance especially to thel ikes of Pyron.
Are you kidding?! His combat description is perhaps even more detailed than Kain and what he does in a battle! He probably has more abilities recorded than Kain has ever used as well. If you want to know the endurance, you could always just think of Archimonde and then dwarf Archimonde's endurance in comparison to Sargeras
Sargeras is a huge being almost beyond comprehension. He is fully clad in a burning suit of molten, black armor. Wildly dancing flames surround his head and form a thick mass of hair and a sweeping beard. A pair of horns extends from his forehead and a burning tail sweeps behind, leaving a trail of glowing embers in its wake. One of its arms hefts a massive, etched lance that is lined with a series of viciously hooked barbs. Demonic influences have given Sargeras body flames.
Sargeras doesn't fight fair. He fights dirty and goes for the throat as quickly as possible. He also doesn't fight alone. Sargeras has a universe of formerly vanquished demons that he now commands to do his bidding. Most of them even do so gladly.
As a former champion of the titans, Sargeras is nearly impervious to physical damage. He is highly resistant to magical attacks. His natural attacks are more powerful than other titans. Demonic influences have given Sargeras' body flames and made him totally immune to fire damage and fel damage. Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras' body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to fifty degrees in every direction for one thousand miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.
When he has his normal horde of demons on hand, Sargeras usually begins a fight by casting enlarge person, displacement, haste, mage armor and shield on himself, plus slow on as many enemies as he can. He identifies the most powerful threat in a battle and instructs his own most powerful forces to focus on the single threat until it's dead or at least banished from the fight. He then identifies the next most dangerous foe, and continues in this way working down the ladder until he is victorious. Sargeras uses his most powerful spells and abilities first, such as domination on evil outsiders; energy drain on an enemy spellcaster; blasphemy on visitors from other planes; or power word stun, disintegrate, phantasmal killer and flame strike. He uses quickened telekinesis to toss enemies around and disrupt his enemies’ attempts to coordinate their side of the battle.
Sargeras is deadly in melee. He has no problem forcing his way with his demon bodyguards through enemy lines to strike at the most dangerous foes. If somehow severely damaged, Sargeras begins casting dimension door to maintain his distance while using heal to restore his life. All other tactics aside, Sargeras’ truly favored tactic is to use summoned minions to aid him. If the battle is going to rage for a long time, he uses planar binding spells to bring forth powerful evil outsiders and dominates them. As the battle draws on, he uses summon monster spells instead.
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Last edited by Super Marie 64 on Sep 20th, 2008 at 11:01 AM
no its not, false and you cant just assume, what is so much greater than Archimonde? that is simply assuming and making up your own mind on his endurance, not what it actually is.
hes at least the size of a planet if not a bit bigger, so not beyond comprehension...your simply describg him there...
this is all from the RPG, this is not helping...as i said before, he is not got any detaield powers.
Two things here, immunityies to fire and fel are the first things you can actually use, the fire expanding out of him is a second but its not going to help him in this fight.
This is all from the RPG, bits and pieces of what he would do IN GAMEPLAY[ but not in a real canon battle.
From these descriptions he sounds nothing more than a combination of WoW classes which is gameplay and is further made odd by the fact this is gameplay statistics as well, yet you call all that more description than Kains abilities?
I did not call that more description than Kain's abilities. Didnt you read what I wrote? I called his way of combat more detailed, and I said that he probably has more abilities recorded than Kain To me, it sounds like you are in denial. Tell me why he would not act the way he does in the RPG, in any other battle? And I did not write any of those lower paragraphs. It was Shadow and Light that described him as beyond comprehension. Not me.
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Last edited by Super Marie 64 on Sep 20th, 2008 at 11:51 AM
weve seen all Kains way of combat with our own eyes so it doesnt have to be written detailed, more abilities, ime not so sure about that. In denial of what?
So far what can you debate Sarg with? what attacks would he use? finding a statement somewhere that says "he is very powerful" doesnt help him in a debate and its not an ability.
Because thats the gamepaly RPG, he wouldnt act like that anymore than Norgannon would use simple mage spells, most of those are simple spells the classes in WoW use, if a Titan uses those types of spells then they are pathetic beings who are overhyped even more than I thought so before, however I dont belive that is the way they would act, I think they would use powers we simply dont know yet, simple, which is why they are not so debatable.
Guessing at their ednurance just by gauging off their henchmen like Archiomonde or guessing their powers just becuase of something saying their "incredible power" or other statements of lack of detail.
If you truly belive that the RPG gameplay is the way the canon Sarg would likely fight I would be very surprised, if it is, then you must also Belelive Sarg loses this battle in an instant since none of those powers described will help him much.
have you not played WoW? haste, slow, banishment, domnation (I think), energy drain, power words, flamestrike are all WoW powers, mainly gameplay powers in general, what does it say for Sylvanas in the same book? or is she in the MoM, ime sure it doesnt say in that book what it says she does in the canon novels?
Slow, Banishment, Domination, Flamestrike and Haste exist in the Warcraft universe and are very useful skills. Deal with it. What, should Sargeras not use slow and haste merely because he is better than others? Even though he is as powerful as he is, slow and haste are two basic skills that help against any advesaries. Just because skills he use exist in WoW does not mean he is some weakass caster. Draining the energies from an opponent is not a bad move, preventing them to use spells. To dominate a foe is not a very useless spell either. And next time you play WoW, look around you. There is no spell called: "Power Word Stun". Power Word is merely a spell spoken by tongue. Flame Strike has been used by characters than him, yes, but why would that mean he should not use it in battle? Fire is kinda his "thing"
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Sep 18th, 2008 09:51 PM
To me, it sounds like you are in denial. Tell me why he would not act the way he does in the RPG, in any other battle? And I did not write any of those lower paragraphs. It was Shadow and Light that described him as beyond comprehension. Not me.
