Yes, I, Kovacs86, the artist formerly known as Knightfall93, confess that I was wrong. I did several times criticise the Dark Knight Returns very, very strongly. However, having decided to reread the graphic novel with an open mind, several years later, I actually loved it. No, it's not the greatest graphic novel of all time; it's not even the best Batman comic or even Miller's best (Daredevil: Born Again is superior, as is Batman: Year One), in my opinion, but I confess, I loved it.
I hang my head in shame...
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I personally believe that The Dark Knight Returns is awfully overrated. It's a good book, but it's far from the best Batman comic ever. Even in the last ten years, there were at the very least two Batman comics superior to it- Hush and Long Halloween (didn't get to reading Dark Victory. Yet.).
B) Hush was alright. It certainly was no DKR. The story was certainly nothing special.
C) The Long Halloween's more than ten years old, I believe. Also, I would hate to say which of the two I prefer. DKR is, however, considerably better than Dark Victory, which was only alright.
D) If I were to actually choose any Batman comic that's better, the only one I would definitely say is superior is Miller's other work, Year One.So either way, Miller > Loeb. Though, to be fair, they've both been sucking for a while now (see: All Star Batman for Miller, Ultimates 3 for Loeb).
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Hmm...? I think it's 'okay'. The only part I really like about it was Batman vs. The Joker.
The 'mystery' was hella easy, but I loved the story, mainly because of the amazing art and it being so deliciously readable. I loved Catwoman in it, too. I wouldn't say it's the best Batman book ever, but it's an awesome comic.
Well, I liked Long Halloween a lot better than DKR, personally. The art isn't very good, but I liked how it felt so much more like a crime drama than your average superhero comic, for example. I believe it accomplished that better than DKR.
Long Halloween, Hush, Killing Joke, Year One, maybe Arkham Asylum are all above it, in my opinion. I could probably list more if I could think of them at the moment.
Did you not like the build-up to Batman's return, and then his return itself? It was very well written.
I disagree that Hush was awesome. It was an OK story with brilliant art. I tend to rate art as a distant second to story in a comic, and DKR's art was alright, not enough to ruin a good story.
What on Earth was wrong with the Long Halloween art? Sale's great!
The Long Halloween I understand, though I think DKR edges it because it was more original, for me. Loeb just took what Miller did in Year One and continued that story in Long Halloween. DKR was something special, at the time.
The Killing Joke is extremely good, but horribly short, and nothing on Moore's other work. That, I think, is overrated, though good, nonetheless. DKR wins against this because of it having a more satisfying storyline.
I've already said I prefer Year One, and I've never read Arkham Asylum.
However, I do think that those who claim DKR to be the greatest comic of all time are rather pushing it. It just can't rival, in my opinion, the complexity of Watchmen, in any respect. Nothing can, in the comics medium, I believe.
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It was pretty cool, come to think of it. I suppose if I had to choose my main problem, it's the mutant gang storyline. I really, really didn't like it. I'm not sure I can explain why, though. Maybe I need to read DKR again. I'm suddenly starting to feel like it may be awesome if I read it again.
Art is important, certainly. Second to a good story, of course- and I found Hush's story to be incredible. Of course, art always does help. Hush's primary strengths are it's excellent storytelling quality (I was constantly in suspense and waiting to read more, which is more than I can say for DKR), the compelling Catwoman/Batman dynamic, the general power of the characters, and, of course, its art. The mystery? Sub-par. But Hush is an incredible character.
While I can appreciate that art, it feels very, I dunno, kind of overly simplistic for me. I prefer complex art.
It was, and now, bloody hell, I can't wait to read it again. Perhaps I missed something when I originally read it, lol.
Long Halloween wins because it is both a superb read, an excellent noir-styled crime drama, a fascinating mystery. It also allows Batman to fight both 'freaks' and the more real-life mob, which is one of the greatest strengths of Nolan's franchise.
I think the Killing Joke is awesome because it explains the relationship between the Joker and Batman so well, and also explains the character of the Joker. An understandable character is always superior to an un-understandable one.
You should try. It's one of the darkest, most twisted Batman stories out there. Not for everyone, though- I found it very tough to read.
I've never read Watchmen, personally- but DKR certainly isn't the best comic book ever.
Fair enough. That's your opinion. I've certainly read much worse.
That too is fair enough. I suppose Miller's is fairly simplistic (as opposed to the art used in Arkham Asylum or Watchmen [read it!]).
It is very, very good and very enjoyable. It makes you wonder why Loeb can write so much crap now when he produced some great stuff a few years ago...
I agree. It's extremely good. It's too short, though, and I hate the fact that that origin has now been adopted as something of the accepted Joker origin. Though I suppose there was that god-awful version told in Batman Confidential a while back. I hope that's not the "official" story...
So I've heard. I intend to. Soon.
Read Watchmen, before you see the film. It's incredible, and completely unrivalled in comics.
If 100 different threads for Batman 3's villain are worthy, then so is this. I'm posting an opinion. Isn't that what forums are for?
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I may. Emphasize on 'may'.
Oh, hell yeah. Although I usually avoid the most godawful Batman stories.
Heh. Anyway, yeah, I prefer more detailed art.
Hey, he's not the only one.
Yeah, it's status as a one-shot prevents it from being sufficiently awesome. And the Joker origin in Batman Confidential is friggin' awful- it allows for the simplicity of "He was just born evil!!!" seen in so many comics. The Joker's origin story is, IMO, due to its parallel with Batman's, one of the greatest comic book origins ever.
I would love to see a lengthened version of the Killing Joke, too.
Btw, you read The Man Who Laughs? It's basically a more updated version of his first appearance, and a very good comic. So is Clown at Midnight. And I heard that his appearance in Batman R.I.P is awesome, too.
Have you read Miller's All Star? THAT is awful. Though the art's good. The dialogue... not so good...
As do I. As do many people. But less detailed art doesn't make for a poor comic.
No. Sadly, Frank Miller himself has fallen even more spectacularly from grace.
I agree there. I don't like the idea of it being his set, "official" origin however. I like the Joker having a certain element of mystery.
Yes, I've read The Man Who Laughs. It's great. Brubaker's always great, actually, but I really loved that. I love a lot of Year One-period stories. I've not read the Clown at Midnight- is that available in trade paperback form? I've only read midway through RIP, as I haven't been to a comic shop in months. It was alright. A little strange. Enjoyable, but not a great "Batman" story.
I'll get around to it ASAP.
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I think that that Year One-period has certainly produced many of the best stories, which is odd, considering that most of them are retellings of earlier stories and don't have the freedom with characters and potential for originality that stories set in the present day do.
I suppose the character of Batman has developed all it can very easily in present day stories, though, and supervillains become somewhat... silly, when not juxtaposed with more realistic, understandable criminals (i.e: the mob). There have been hundreds of very similar Supervillain X VS Batman and there doesn't feel like much variety there. Batman's done it all before, whereas in stories set earlier, there's a fresher feel, perhaps because Batman is facing these villains for the first time, and thus developing an understanding of Gotham's descent, which is already complete (and, hence, there are few real developments) in modern day-set comics.
I really hope that made sense...
Fair enough. I apologise if my response was a little... over-zealous.
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Well, I'll get around to reading Watchmen. And I have this terrible, terrible feeling the movie will blow. Don't tell me you don't get that feeling.
Edit: Yeah, Kovac, did you like Heath's Joker? From the few panels I've seen of Batman #680 and the Clown at Midnight (which is much more of an actual book- with narration, an omniscent narrator, and all- than a comic book), it's the most similar to H. Joker you're gonna get in comics.
I am surprisingly optimistic about this film, though I've hated the 2 previous Moore adaptions that I've seen- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and V for Vendetta. It actually looks surprisingly true to the comic (some parts of the trailer looked like exact replicas of scenes from the comic, remarkably). However misplaced it may prove to be, I have faith in Zack Snyder.
Of course I liked Ledger's Joker. The Dark Knight was superb, and Ledger's Joker was the best part of the whole film, closely followed by the portrayal of Dent's downfall.
I've just realised that you were referring to the fairly recent Morrison issue of Batman (#66-something) when you mentioned the Clown at Midnight. I thought it was alright, though it felt a little pretentious and too much of a departure from the storyline in Batman at the time, to go into a whole separate prose Joker story. It wasn't bad, though. I just prefer to read either a good book or a good comic, not some half-arsed attempt at amalgamating the two. The man's hardly Tolkien, I'm afraid.
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I feel kind of stupid for saying this, but I didn't find League of Extraordinary Gentleman to be all that bad. It's a rather retarded movie, but I found it to be somewhat fun to watch. I can't say the same for V for Vendetta, though. I hated that godawful piece of crap.
I can hardly name a story in which the Joker is heavily featured and he isn't the best thing about it. I totally agree that his character is the best thing about the movie. Second best? I'm torn between the Bat-Voice and Maggie Gyllenhaal top-notch acting, of course.
...
Seriously, I liked both Dent's downfall, the portrayal of Batman's emotional conflict, and the Gordon/Batman/Dent alliance.
...
Oh, well, I disagree. He isn't Tolkien, but he succeeded very well in writing a creepy, dark, and unsettling Joker story. I can understand why a load of people hated it, but for me, it's an amazing Joker story.
Btw, do you know the Joker cuts his own tongue up in Batman 680? Just to freak Batman out. Taking a note out of the Dark Knight, he's also rocking two scary-looking knives.
Hmph. Fair enough. Most people seem to think quite the reverse. That League was a "godawful piece of crap" and that V was OK. In fact, a scary amount of people seem to think the V film was some kind of monumental work of genius. Just look at some of the reviews on IMDB. However, I recommend both the comic version of League and of V for Vendetta. Alan Moore is a genius. I think League would probably appeal more if you're into Victorian literature, however...
I didn't have that much of a problem with Maggie Gylenhaal or the Bat-voice, to be honest. And, yes, the other two things you liked, I agree with.
Meh. Fair enough. I thought it was kind of stupid. Though the morse-code blinking thing was pretty funny...
Woah. That's actually pretty scary (the tongue thing). As for the knife thing, I'm sure we'll see a lot more TDK stuff in the Joker from now on, at least for a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Batman Confidential origin was to tie in with the film. Unfortunately, the only element remotely relating to the film was Joker having scars...
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They're... well... weird. I couldn't stand that movie, personally. Some people seem to think it's an epic, thought-provoking study about discrimation and fascism, or what not. It's a bunch of BS.
Alan Moore is, in my opinion, the greatest comic book writer of all time. Though his mainstream work was fairly limited, actually.
I hated Maggie (her death scene was BRILLIANT, though), but I didn't have a problem with the bat-voice, personally. I actually kind of liked it, especially in Begins.
How can you say no to that funeral scene, for example? I absolutely love that story.
Batman Confidential = blows. Luckily, TDK at least implied in the Joker's 'origin stories' that his past was tragic and understandable. I liked the second origin story more, personally, even if the first scene is so much scarier and more iconic (How can you forget the Joker rising out of that bodybag and sticking his knife into that mobster's mouth?). Abusive fathers are so cliched. And I liked the line "Now I see the funny side... now I'm always smiling!". Seems to me like the Joker found the irony of him being sad and depressed, but physically incapable of doing anything but smiling.
The tongue thing was downright chilling. It definetly looks like no writer will ever portray the Joker as a 'comical' killer- we're going into hardcore psychopath material. RIP's Joker seems to be the virtual mirror of H. Joker, lol.
I agree. The graphic novel, however, is fantastic. It's probably my 2nd favourite comic of all time (after Watchmen).
Easily. There are an awful lot of people who'd agree with you. He's light-years ahead of most other comic writers...
The death scene certainly was excellent, though I thought she was fine in the film. She was an improvement on Katie Holmes...
As for the Bat-voice, it was pretty cool in Begins, I thought. It occasionally got a little too... growl-y in The Dark Knight.
I'd better get to the comic shop at the weekend then, which means I'll need to take a bloody 25-minute train journey...
I was trying to avoid going, too. Maybe I'll just wait a couple of months and get it from Amazon...
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Oct 3rd, 2008 09:47 PM
