Red if you ignore me how can you correct every thing i do wrong,and sid-66 i live in florida period if you live here i can prove it other than that dont talk about it because its pointless.
That comparison is inconsistent. Mace Windu never engaged Palpatine in a force battle, he used his physical strength to deflect the lightning with his saber. Mace did best Palpatine in the lightsaber duel, though that victory was legit.
Well firstly, Kreia trained Revan and he was successful by her standards. Sion makes the comment that Kreia was trying to train an apprentice as great as the first (Revan).
And Kreia wasnt conflicted during her duel with the Exile. It was the final test, all or nothing. The Exile would either win and succeed in Kreias eyes, or she would lose and be a failure. Kreia has been shown throughout the game to despise mercy, so she isnt exactly a carebear.
While this may be true, the assumption Exodus made that the Exile got stronger from Dantooine to the end of the game is very reasonable, even if it was just by experience.
And Vapaad. And Shatterpoint. Which, incidentally, are Force-related.
Surprise!
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I wasnt aware that Shatterpoint was an indicator of raw force power. Thanks for clearing that up. /sarcasm off
And Vaapad is just a form of lightsaber combat. Yes the form uses the force to increase speed, but I would imagine that in any situation where a Jedi is fighting with a lightsaber he would use the force to increase speed, reflexes etc. etc.
In any case no one is going to make the argument that because Mace defeated Palpatine in a saber duel with Vaapad he is stronger with the force. Its just bad reasoning, and it doesnt relate at all to the battle between Kreia and the Exile.
Wait, what's that? I said Vapaad and Shatterpoint were indicitive of raw power? Silly me.
Also---huh? What's that you say? I implied Mace is stronger than Palpatine in the Force? Woopsy daisy.
And yet---hmm? You say I was only correcting you that it wasn't just Mace's brute strength which deflected the Lightning, but was also due to his Vapaad's super-conducting loop? How careless of me.
Still, I have to---What's that? You're a popinjay? Silly rabbit.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Well if you had actually read his argument, that is the point you were defending.
If you were only 'correcting' me about deflecting the lightning, that is also wrong because Shatterpoint had nothing to do with it and its not shown that Vaapad was necessary in deflecting the lightning either.
Really now, was your only purpose in entering this debate to act like a prick? Grow up.
[/quote]
Well if you had actually read his argument, that is the point you were defending. [/quote]
If you actually read my argument, I was using that (admittedly fallacious) argument to disprove something about the exile. I wasn't actually saying that Mace>Sidious with the Force. Gideon would kill me.
Im aware, but you were saying that the reasoning was bad because of extenuating circumstances. That implies that the reasoning would be good if not for those circumstances. So yeah now you prolly see where Im coming from.
And yet it was Vapaad that sent the Lightning back onto Palpatine. And the Shatterpoint reference was moot in the Lightning duel, but was still a part of Mace's defeat of Palpatine... so, Force! My point was that Mace used the Force, through his vapaad, to deflect Palaptine's Lightning back onto Palpatine. Physical strength doesn't do that, Force powers do.
Oh and I didn't read his argument. Or yours. I saw that one sentence and chimed in. And I am a prick, but usually only to over-sensitives who insist on correcting and negating arguments that bear little value... even here. Vapaad=Force. Vapaad helped Mace deflect the Lightning, not just brute strength. Bad-a-bing, bad-a-boom. But I know you're gonna argue and call me childish. So I'm wasting my time ain't I?
How's the midterms going?
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Really now? I thought it was pretty clear from the movie that Mace's lightsaber was deflecting the lightning.
And I never said that Mace never used the force in his duel. Please dont put words in my mouth. I said that Mace never engaged Palpatine in a force battle, which happens to be the only way to show superiority with the force. Just because Mace happened to make a few indirect uses of the force in his duel, and he also happened to win the duel, doesnt mean that Mace in any way showed superiority with the force. Got that?
Physical strength alone cant deflect lightning but combined with a lightsaber, yes it will do nicely.
Okay. What do you want? Sympathy?
Agreed.
This is a Star Wars versus forum, very few of the debates have real value in themselves. Its more about practicing reasoning skills then anything, and engaging in conversation with your fellows. If I feel interested enough Im going to take a stance in a debate. Do you have a problem with that? Should we all leave because according to your opinion these kind of debates have no value?
As I have already explained, Vapaad doesnt really qualify. Yes it channels force energies, but those force energies are directed towards improving his lightsaber combat. Mace wasnt directing his force energies at Palpatine or defending from a force attack made by Palpatine using only Vaapad (Rofl is that even possible?). In the context of my argument, which you seem to be distorting, Im entirely correct.
And your right, I am going to call you childish. You should of walked away at the last post. Your debating a point that even you probably dont agree with. And you were being obnoxious on top of that.
Now if your not getting the message clearly enough, perhaps Captain Picard can assist you.
(please log in to view the image)
Havent started them yet. I think I will do well though.
Last edited by Great Vengeance on Oct 26th, 2008 at 10:21 AM
hmmm, just read the quote from ROTS. Lucien is indeed correct, top of pg. 333, Mace used Vapaad to block the lightning attack.
makes me think, from the way the passage is written, was sids SURPRISED by the fact that he started getting fried by his own lightning? according to that passage, a usual force user shouldn't have been able to reflect the lightning BACK at sids. It should merely have been a block, such as when Kenobi blocks Dooku's lightning.
Well do you mind giving the relevant quote? I dont own the novel, and I read it a long time ago. I have a hard time believing that a lightsaber style is responsible for redirecting the lightning though.
It's not the lightsaber style. It's not like "lol swing thaT way den that way then up athen spin and BOOM vaapad laightning gos back." Vaapad is a mindset, a state in the Force that practitioners can lapse into. It's the "metaphysical" aspect of Mace Windu's creation.
it is a style faunus. and i was all set to argue on Vengeance side. In fact, i had the entire argument all typed in, and just needed the quote that i was going to say was inconclusive, until i read the following: and then i changed my mind. But vapaad is most definitly a style.
pg. 332 bottom:
"...lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arks of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.
Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style . It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. "
And then, to back my suggestion that it came as a suprise to sidious that it could be reflected back at him: the next sentence: "Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that poured from his hands only intensified"
I think: that palpatine, having not faced a vaapad user before, didn't know that Mace could reflect the lightning back at him with a lightsaber. Had that ever happened before or since? Yoda and Luke are able to return lightning by hand, but with a lightsaber has lightning every been returned to its source?
I'm thinking maybe Vaapad users are the only ones who can do this.
Meh I have to disagree about this being conclusive evidence. Notice Mace had to angle his blade in order to catch the forking arks. Thats what the movie shows also, Mace using his lightsaber at a certain angle to reflect the lightning into Palpatine. It doesnt directly state that Vaapad was responsible, it simply states that he was in Vaapad while he was redirecting the lightning. Remember that Vaapad itself is a circuit that channels energies through Mace. Heres the quote explaining how Vaapad works:
"Ki-Adi-Muni, you are aware that me, Vaapad is. . . personal. To Agen Kolar I will explain.
I developed Vaapad to answer my own weakness, and channel my inner darkness into a weapon of the light. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half a super-conducting loop, the other half being the power of darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him.
Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.
It is also not meant for any other Jedi without my approval."
As for Palpatine being suprised, that could simply mean that he wasnt expecting Mace to hold his own. No I dont recall lightning ever being redirected by a non Vaapad user but the situation of Mace vs. Palpatine was pretty unique, he was firing a continuous stream of lightning at Mace and not a short burst as in the case of Obi wan vs. Dooku.
And I did some digging around and found this quote. “You’re the Chosen One, Anakin,” Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. “Take him. It’s your destiny.”
This heavily implies that Mace was using Vaapad to increase his own strength. This is the more reasonable interpretation IMO, Vaapad has never been suggested to have the property of being able to defend against force attacks.
Well it is classified as a lightsaber style. Your right that it is rather unique compared to the other styles, but it being able to reflect lightning is another matter.
It reflects Lightning. At least in an experienced user's hands. It's a style/state-of-mind. Like Juyo combined with a mental Force setting (in this case a borderline Dark Side setting). It's also a literary device to explain why Mace was the only movie-character shown to actually reflect Lightning in a similar manner as a blaster bolt, instead of pooling it in his palm like Yoda.
By the by, I love Picard pics. I lol'd enough to steal that one.
EDIT: It's been a while since I read any SW novel, but I think it's stated somewhere that Vapaad not only acts as a foil against another Dark Sider, but bolsters one own inner-darkness into physical (and I guess general) strength and power, without actually succumbing to the Dark Side.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Oct 27th, 2008 at 04:25 AM
Oct 24th, 2008 10:17 PM
