Theres barely any jutsus with 10 handseals, no where is it stated or even suggested anywhere that Naruto has trouble remembering handseals, people just think he's stupid because he's loud and had trouble controlling his chakra in his academy days, but Naruto isn't really that stupid, if he put his mind to it he can learn just about any jutsu, and has never ever had trouble remembering handseals ever. Where did it say he learned a new ninjutsu? I can say the same thing about Sakura.
Kabuto was also stated to be about Kakashi level, and her fight with him was like a minute fight anyway, she kicked his ass then he exploited her phobia and the fight was over. Yeah, Jiraiya actually fought in that fight for awhile, Tsunade didn't. She was just shaking by herself over her phobia while Shizune fought Kabuto, then when she actually did fight it was like less then a minute, she neutralized Manda and gave Orochimaru a punch, thats all, not enough to gauge it as her limit.
Who are the people following Danzou? If there are people following Danzou i seriously doubt they would agree to anyone other then Danzou. The parents want her part? huh? iirc Shikamaru's dad praises her as being konoha's strongest kunoichi ever iirc. If she really is incapable of doing anything but healing, then she would get her ass kick by just about any ninja like Kurenai.
12-19 is all him IN his gate mode, 19 being him taking it off. Gai exerted lots more power in his shorter amount of time.
Kakashi being more versatile, more abilities, more smarter, means he's most likely above Gai. If Gai were to fight Kakashi to a stalemate, he would most likely need to open some gates. I seriously doubt he can stalemate Kakashi in his regular form.
No, you're having trouble comprehending what i'm saying. ok answer me this, does Kakashi using his Sharingan make him weak? No.
Does Gai using gates make him weak? No.
Gai can probably fight Kakashi evenly without gates, if Kakashi doesn't use his sharingan, sure.
If Kakashi uses his sharingan, Gai would most likely need to open his gates to fight equal to him.
I have given you a reason, you just are having trouble reading it, They probably have NOT fought before, they've probably just seen eachothers abilities (them fighting other opponents) and Gai just called Kakashi his equal.
Post-Timeskip i would put Kakashi above Gai
Pre-Timeskip they are equal.
The first hit Tsunade gets on Kabuto is when he's not paying attention. And that hit paralyzed him sorta which let her hit him some more. Then after he figures out how to move his body he goes to attack and Jiraiya shows up. Then he does the blood phobia thing. That doesn't change the fact he was able to dodge her, and get a hit on her and only Kakashi's level.
The team he leads that are nobody important are Danzou's followers. And you've seen how weak every single female ninja shown has been right?
How? Lee used the lotus, got beaten some, then used the first gate, then used the fourth or fifth gate for a longer time. Gai went straight to the six gate after getting hit a few times, and got out of it as soon as he won. Which was just long enough to get to Kisame, and counter his attack. Gai didn't use it long at all nor would it have been as taxing since he used it, and got out of it as quick as possible without having been seriously hurt already and using a move that puts a strain on the body anyway.
Having more jutsu doesn't make somebody more powerful. It just makes Kakashi a long range fighter..Who mostly uses close range techniques anyway. So that doesn't really matter when Kakashi is a close range ninutsu user fighting a taijutsu expert. Why would he need to open the gates?
Okay lets see if I can explain what I'm trying to mean. You think Gai needs to use the gates. We've seen how much the gates increase somebodies speed and strength. If Gai needed the gates to be on Kakashi's level then without them that would make him leagues below Kakashi.
And they have fought before..It's 50 wins 49 losses for Gai in all different types of abilities. I seriously doubt that at least five out of a hundred haven't been sparring things.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Doesn't neccessarily mean its Ninjutsu, its most likely something to do with his Rasengan or Kyuubi. But my point still stands, Jiraiya has a lot of Ninjutsu, why doesn't Naruto have any? Same thing with Sasuke, Orochimaru has a million Ninjutsu, why does Sasuke only have his Uchiha fire jutsus and his Chidori/lightning jutsus? So just because Sakura doesn't show any Ninjutsu, it doesn't mean Tsunade has zero.
Kabuto is Kakashi level, Tsunade obviously underestimated him, she even later says "This boy is no ordinary shinobi" meaning she thought he was just a regular shinobi earlier, which is most likely how he got those hits on her, then after she says that, she hits him, then afterwards he resorts to exploiting her phobia.
What? The team who leads?
I'd rank Kurenai just behind Asuma, Sakura just above Shino, Hinata about Chouji level. The only horrible female is Ino.
Gai got beat up sorta by KIsame, then he opened the gates and exerted more power then Lee in a couple minutes, and after that he was basically 100% fine, Lee was literally KO'd from it, huge difference from 100% fine and KO'd.
Gai opening gates does not put as much strain on his body as Lee does.
No.. because not all jutsus are long range, Kakashi is balanced overall, he has good taijutsu, he's fast, he can predict, and he has over 1000 jutsus. Gai would need to open gates because he wouldn't beable to fight on par with Kakashi without it, same reason why Kakashi wouldn't beable to fight Gai without using his sharingan.
And we've seen how much of an advantage sharingan users have over regular opponents, its just as much advantage as the gates are, look at Sasuke for example, how he handled Kyuubi-Naruto like nothing right when he got his 3rd tomoe. You're talking like sharingan isn't an advantage but gates is a huge advantage, they're about equal, give or take here and there.
I seriously doubt Kakashi would bother fighting Gai for no reason, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would waste time and do things like that, even if he did he'd probably just give the win to Gai because he doesn't care.
Thats why he chooses just quick games to get it over with like rockpaperscissors.
Rasengan IS ninjutsu. But it's talked about three different times of a jutsu that is never said. And one thing is shown. Unless all three times are about a completely different thing, which I don't see why it would be, he knows a new jutsu. Even if it is just a variation of Rasengan or he actually throws his Wind Rasengan.
She also calls him stronger than she was in her prime. Or well says he could be stronger than her. And she only hits him because she's better at medical ninjutsu than he is and he thinks he's won and isn't paying attention. She cheapshotted him. And still didn't one-shot him.
The team Danzou leads...Are his followers. And it is full of unimportant people. But it's still people who don't like Tsunade. Chouji, Ino, and Hinata are far from being strong compared to anybody. Though I blame Hinata's fear of fighting for her. Kureinai has done nothing at all except get pregnant and owned by Itachi with little effort. Anko is probably the only female that has shown anything besides Sakura or Tsunade and even then she didn't do anything real impressive either. Besides Tsunade being stronger than the rookie 9 isn't a big accomplishment..
The Kisame/Gai fight didn't last nearly as long as the Lee/Gaara fight. And Lee used the gates longer, used lotus before hand which strained the body, and then used the first gate to heal which also strains the body. Kakashi even yells at Gai for teaching him a forbidden technique. Gai didn't do anything close to what Lee did. He knows not to, and that it is dangerous to use. That's why he ended it fast.
Predicting Naruto isn't exactly a huge feat when he's the most predictable taijutsu fighter around. Gai has the speed, plus skill. And I doubt Kakashi would use sharingan against Gai anyway also. The same reason Gai won't use the gates. It's to taxing for something so trivial as a sparring match. Besides Gai said it himself he has defeated the sharingan so it's whole advantage would be nil. Naruto doesn't have Gai's extensive knowledge on the sharingan.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Rasengan isn't exactly ninjutsu, there is no handseals or even element nature, its pure chakra control, its Minato's move he taught Jiraiya and Jiraiya taught to Naruto. Jiraiya has lots of Ninjutsu, but Naruto has basically no normal ninjutsus besides kage bunshin which wasn't taught to him by Jiraiya. The point is still Naruto didn't really learn any regular Ninjutsu from Jiraiya (Jiraiya has lots of Ninjutsu) Sasuke didn't really learn much of Orochimaru's millions of ninjutsus, Sakura hasn't shown any jutsu (Does that mean Tsunade has zero? No.)
She says his senses and strength MAY exceed hers, but obviously he isn't that great that he needs to exploit her phobia while she hasn't fought in along time, if he was that much of a better fighter he could've taken her out easily. She didn't cheap shot him, they were in a fight, and he let his guard down because no ordinary person would beable to stand after that, and that one hit basically did take him out, if they carried on fighting Kabuto would have lost because he didn't have 100% control over his body, so he exploits her phobia.
Who is "they" ? Root? Besides Sai, we've only seen Danzou and one anbu looking guy from Root and like I said, they most likely wouldn't like anyone who has the Hokage title besides Danzou, they've never said anything about Tsunade specifically anyway. Well its Itachi, even dodging his attack and getting out of his genjutsu is a feat itself. I never said Tsunade being stronger then the rookie 9 is an accomplishment, thats just common sense. She was stated as Konoha's greatest Kunoichi ever, which means past as well.
And Gai fought Kisame for awhile as well and didn't do too good. The fact is, Gai opened up all his gates for a couple minutes and exerted more power then Lee who just basically punched Gaara around, in the end Lee was KO'd, Gai was totally fine. Which even though Lee had worse circumstances, it does prove Gai can handle the gates better, because there is a huge difference between being KO'd and totally fine, even with the circumstances
Gai isn't THAT fast, people try to make him out to be godly speedy, just because he taught Lee to be fast, so because Lee is fat that means Gai must be 5x faster right?
Well Kakashi taught Sasuke to be just as fast as Lee, so following that logic Kakashi should be as fast as Gai.
Now before you say "well Sasuke is a genius", well Kakashi is a genius as well, their speed difference shouldn't be THAT much of a difference, Gai probably has the edge but not by that much.
Lets be honest, Gai probably trained himself many years to get as fast as he did, and he is pretty stupid (well lee level stupid) , Kakashi is a genius. Comparing Gai to Kakashi is like comparing Lee to chuunin exam Sasuke.
From what has been shown, Gai isn't that great without his gates, he is about Asuma level, if Gai were to fight Sharingan Kakashi to a stalemate, he'd definately need to open gates.
Last edited by Terryc250 on Nov 17th, 2008 at 07:35 AM
In Sasuke's case he HAS to know Orochimaru's jutsus. At least the ones he has seen. Maybe not all of them sure but a few at least. It's the basic trait of a sharingan user. Naruto is inept at learning hand seals, doesn't mean he can't but he's not exactly great at it, and ninjutsu would also not fit Naruto's fighting style. Just like he can summon but doesn't. Though that new jutsu isn't his Wind Rasengan perfected because it was mentioned way before he ever got it. And the Rasengan doesn't do anything remotely close to what the after-effects were shown of said technique. So it's a new jutsu of some kind that he can't use under his normal chakra. As for Tsunade...there isn't anything suggesting she knows anymore jutsu. We know Oro has more than he used because he learns Forbidden Techniques, we know Sasuke knows more than he uses because he has the sharingan, we know Kakashi knows more because he's said to, we know Jiraiya knows more because we've seen him use some, we know Sarutobi knows a lot more than he showed. Tsunade hasn't ever even been eluded to know anything other than what was shown.
He stopped her, or would have if she wouldn't had been so good at medical ninjutsu, though she was beaten, and paid no attention to her and went to brag. Then he was hit. That's a bit of a cheapshot when he easily dodged her when he saw her coming. And no he exploited her phobia AFTER help arrived. He survived a few hits from her, found out how to move his body right when it was screwed up, went to attack, and then Jiraiya, and the other appeared. Tsunade went to attack, and he exploited her phobia because the others were there to help her out. It wasn't just him vs her anymore. That doesn't say anything about how easily he was able to dodge her, how she was out of breath so quickly while Oro and Kabuto dodged her, and how he easily got hits on her.
In the newest manga we've seen a small group of people underground while Pein destroys Konoha waiting for Tsunade to loose so Danzou can become Hokage. Great past Kunoichi also. Who have no feats, and the girls in Konoha that do have feats are extremely weak. The strongest females have always come from different countries.
Not doing to good doesn't equal anything that happened to Lee. And yes Gai can handle the gates better but that's because his body is stronger while Lee had just learned that move and never really used it. That still doesn't mean anything when Gai used it for a minute if that not minutes. It doesn't take minutes to dodge a person's attack and then counter. And of course Gai looked better..Lee used it until he couldn't move anymore against a guy who was sheilding himself from most of the initial attack. Gai used it against a person who couldn't defend against it, and was just trying to delay them, and wasn't even at full power. Big difference in circumstances, and in length it was used.
Except Gai IS fast. I never said he was so much faster than Kakashi but both Kakashi and Gai are much faster than Lee ever was during the Chunnin exams. And still didn't say anything about the fact that Gai is extremely skilled in taijutsu while Naruto isn't. And the fact that Gai has studied the sharingan, and Naruto hasn't. And that Gai found a way to beat the sharingan, and Naruto doesn't know it. Asuma even says that only Gai could really know a persons movements by their feet.
Asuma, Kakashi, Gai they are all around the same level. Kakashi has his sharingan to make him more lethal than both but Gai found a way to cancel that advantage. Which means it would be Kakashi's skill vs Gai's skill. Pulling out the gates wouldn't be Gai's own skill. And you seem to think he'd use a forbidden technique in a friendly rivalry why? If Kakashi could just counter the speed why use something that would damage his body at that? It wouldn't make any sense. You keep saying the sharingan is why Gai would have to use the gates. But it makes no sense. Gai found a way to cancel the sharingan's ability to predict movement, and everything else. And it's a friendly sparring match. Gai also only used Gates on Kisame when he realized he had no other choice. So there isn't anything proving Gai would use gates so nonchalantly against Kakashi, who isn't a threat.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Not exactly, unless he has his sharingan opened and has the intent to copy. Orochimaru only uses ninjutsu against worthy foes, in the 3 years, he most likely has not fought many worthy foes, either he dispatches them easily without ninjutsu, or he gets sasuke or kabuto to take them out. Naruto has never had trouble at learning handseals nor has it ever suggested he did, he had bad chakra control, thats it, how would Ninjutsu not fit his fighting style? Kage Bunshin (a ninjutsu) is already a big part of his fighting style. Her age, her title, her intelligence, basically most of her 50 years has been a big part of being a well known shinobi. Nothing suggests that she knows zero ninjutsu, YOU think she knows zero ninjutsu because she didn't use any in her 1 minute scuffle which is ridiculous to gauge that as her limit.
She underestimated him, he underestimated her, in the end Tsunade had the upperhand, until he exploited her phobia. It wasn't a cheap-shot, it's not like shes going to go and shout "Hey Kabuto, your attack actually didn't effect me, so keep your guard up" she had an opening to attack and did so. If he can "easily get hits on her" then he wouldn't have needed cut his wrist to exploit her phobia, he could've just dodged and neutralize her like he did in the beginning, but thats not the case because Tsunade isn't underestimating him anymore and he knew that. She wasn't "out of breath so quickly". The length of time she was chasing them is unknown, they both were breathing hard, also keep in mind that Kabuto took a soldier pill which increases speed and strength. And he definately did not "easily" dodge her.
Yeah those anbu looking guys but my point still stands, they have nogrudge against Tsunade they simply just want Danzou to be Hokage. I'm saying the girls are ranked pretty high in their generation compared to how few of them there are, Sakura for example is one of the more skilled out of the rookie 9, Kurenai is one of the more well known Jounins, the only useless female in the series is like, Ino.
Which is my point, Gai can handle the gates better then Lee, if you agree, why do you keep trying to debate it.
Well while the Gai had his gates on, some of it wasn't shown because it was focused on Neji and Lee, so we don't know what was ahppening during that time, Gai could've been dodging/attacking Kisame during that time, he most likely wasn't just standing there.
The bottom line is Gai was battered, not as battered as Lee.
Lee used it longer, Gai exerted more power.
Gai was totally fine, Lee was KO'd.
Well everyone tries to make Gai out to be ligh-speed fast, which he isn't. I'm comparing Sasuke to Lee, because most of the speculation around Gai is from how skilled Lee is, but Kakashi trained Sasuke to be above Lee. Kakashi is a genius like Sasuke, thats what i meant with Kakashi is to Gai what Sasuke is to Lee during the chuunin exams. Asuma says that because Gai is of course the best hand to hand taijutsu fighter in Konoha.
Honestly, Kakashi is above the rest of the Jounins, he was a genius of his time, and trained by the 4th Hokage. If Gai were to fight Kakashi while only looking at his feet, that would put a handicap on his Taijutsu, so given the fact that Kakashi is probably almost as fast as Gai, can predict him, and Gai has a handicap on, and Kakashi has his huge arsenal of Jutsu and his smarts (Gai isn't really that smart), Kakashi would beat him.
Why wouldn't pulling out the gates be his own skill? It's more of his skill then the sharingan is Kakashi's. Like Kakashi said, Lee must be a GENIUS to beable to open gates (not a genius of hard work, but an actual genius).
If they are sparring then they would probably be equal, in a sparring match Kakashi wouldn't use his sharingan, Gai wouldn't use his gates, Kakashi probably wouldn't even use much of his jutsu's.
He's already used some or Oro's jutsu when Oro was absorbed inside of him.
It wouldn't because all of the jutsu Naruto does know are taijutsu based. Everything we've seen Jiraiya use is long-range. Though it looks like Naruto make be getting a long-range jutsu it isn't part of his fighting style. Just like Kakashi uses like only two jutsu out of his hundreds. And sure both Sakura and Tsunade have to know more jutsu. But at the least it's probably just low level stuff they needed to learn to pass the school. And it wasn't a minute fight. She CHASED Oro and Kabuto only using weak taijutsu skills, and lost to Kabuto using weak taijutsu skills. And what she did to Kabuto is exactly what Vegeta did to Gokou during th Buu Saga. Both thought the fight was ever, let their guard down, got beaten. What part about the phobia don't you get. Jiraiya, Shizune, and Naruto had shown up as he went to attack BEFORE he did the phobia. It wasn't until after they arrived to help he that he used that weakness to his advantage. It's not like he suddenly started getting beat up, and cut himself. He got beat, went to counter, help arrived before he could, he stopped, Tsunade charged, he stopped her from attacking. And he used a soldier pill because he said he's weak in taijutsu and speed. Yet he was able to dodge her all that time.
Not really. Kurenai had just become a Jounin recently, and she's only know because she leads Hinata's team. Hinata is pretty much useless and her little sister is stronger than her. Sakura is in the same boat Tsunade is. Limited taijutsu but extreme healing abilities. I'm pretty sure Anko is stronger than Kurenai, and probably the strongest know kunoichi under Tsunade from Konoha. Which still isn't saying much because Tsunade may have the chakra, and physical strength more than them but that doesn't make her extremely skilled at all.
Gai got hit once that is was shown, and his hand cut by trying to hold Samahade. Not exactly beaten up. And the point is while Gai's body may be able to hold it better Gai's little fight is in no way proof that Gai can. To many different circumstances. How can Gai extert more power? He used it briefly, Lee used it like three times in one fight that went on for a while and Lee was being beaten while Gai was barley touched when he used it.
Kakashi is only above the rest because of what the sharingan can do. Without using the sharingan, and having it covered the are all about even. And Kakashi doesn't use many jutsu in a life death situation..why would he use any more jutsu on Gai no matter what they are doing. Kakashi uses chidori, earth style, and sharingan. Maybe summoning the dogs. Nothing else unless he copies a jutsu which he couldn't do against a purely taijutsu fighter anyway. And it wouldn't be a handicap on Gai's jutsu. He taught himself to know how a person will move by looking at their feet because his rival is a sharingan user. And Gai may be weird but I wouldn't call him dumb. At least not when it comes to fighting.
It wouldn't be Gai's skill to use that gates because it's a forbidden, only use when there is no other choice jutsu. The gates are exactly like Kakashi's MS jutsu. A double edge sword. The lotus, and the gates are both double edged swords just like Kakashi using MS and Kamui. They only use them if they have no other choice but don't go around doing them randomly and for no reason. Much less in a match against each other.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Not really, he hasnt used any new ninjutsu that Orochimaru has taught him, if he taught him any, the only things he learned are his chidori moves, his uchiha katon moves, and summon.
Thats because all he knows is kage bunshin, and rasengan basically, thats why he resorts to taijutsu, and the jutsus that he knows, if he knew more he would use more, but he doesn't, its not that 'he refuses to learn anymore because its not part of his style' he just doesn't know anymore. But does that mean Jiraiya knows none then? No. Thats what i'm saying about the logic you are using about Tsunade and Sakura, just because you didn't see Sakura use any, it does not mean Tsunade knows none. What do you mean it was exactly like what Vegeta did to Goku? Thats totally different, in the Vegeta and Goku fight they called it a truce, and when goku turned around he attacked him from behind, now THAT is cheap. In the Kabuto and Tsunade fight, he attacked her and thought she was finished so he let his guard down, but it actually didn't effect her so she attacked back, how is that cheap? Attacking when her opponents guard is down? Should she wait til his guard is back up before attacking? Yeah Orochimaru and Kabuto were just running away. I know the three were there, but if he can beat her in about quickly like he did when she was undersestimating him, then he wouldn't have resorted to cutting himself to exploit her phobia, but he's not dumb, he know he can't, and thats why he had to cut himself to exploit her phobia
She's still above all the chuunins, all the special jounins shown in the series, which means she ranked pretty high in the village, considering there is so few females compared to males. Hinata is not useless, she's more useful then Kiba or even Chouji. Again you're assuming Tsunade is only capable of physical strength and healing, stop assuming thats only her limit by her 1 minute scuffle, its as ridiculous as saying the 1st Hokage is only capable of his Mokuton jutsu/darkness jutsu and nothing else.
Gai was hit by Kisame suiton suikoudan no jutsu, and pounded hard by Kisame, which is probably alot stronger then getting battered a couple times by genin Gaaras sand. Like i said, Gai used it for a couple minutes, Rock Lee used it for a few minutes. Gai exerted more power because he used the morning peacock, Lee was basically running around punching Gaara around. Lee was under worse circumstances, but he was KO'd, Gai was totally fine, which is a bigger difference then what the circumstance difference was.
No, Kakashi is a genius of his time, he became a jounin even before he obtained the Sharingan, at the age of 12-13. No, Kakashi uses all types of jutsus from water, earth, lightning, summons. It's not like if he's fighting a taijutsu person he won't beable to use any of those jutsus. He very well can use any of his different types of clones, even the lightning clones, etc. Gai's taijutsu is skilled enough that he can fight while looking at his opponents feet, it doesn't mean that he'll be able to fight at 100%, because its still a handicap. Gai hasn't done anything in or out of fighting to prove he is smarter then the average person.
It's forbidden because if not used properly it can kill the user, it still requires alot of skill to learn and use, just like Orochimaru has tons of kinjutsu but that doesn't take away from his "skill", Sharingan takes a toll on Kakashi's body as well because he doesn't have a regular Uchiha body. The only way Gai(without gates) would be equal with Kakashi is if Kakashi doesn't use his sharingan.
Sasuke uses a high level Orochimaru jutsu in his fight with Itachi. And before that I believe he's used snakes coming out of his sleeves.
Naruto wouldn't use any other moves if he did. Just like Kakashi doesn't use any other moves than what he always uses. We already know Jiraiya knows more jutsu. We've seen him use other jutsu in just the Sannin fight. All Tsunade did that whole fight is punch everything after she summons. And it's not the exact same circumstance as Vegeta/Gokou but it's still the same. Kabuto has shown he could dodge her, and he hit her making a normal person be down, and while he bragged she attacked while he was through fighting. He thought the fight was over, and without that she'd have never hit him. And you fail to grasp that he was going to attack her until Jiraiya arrived. He stopped his attack because they appeared in front of him. There is nothing to suggest he couldn't have beaten her had they not interfered. Naruto and Shizune basically double team him. He'd be stupid to try to fight them and have Tsunade attacking him.
Except we've seen some of the first's jutsu with the darkness. And I'm pretty sure all the first did use in jutsu was his mokuton just variations. Just like Haku only used variations of his ice jutsu, and Yamato only uses variations of his Mokuton. Yet I'm also sure he was a skilled fighter. And you keep saying Tsunade's fight was a minute..It was much longer than a minute yet you say Gai/Kisame fight was minutes and it was much shorter.
Kakashi's fights alway feature the same jutsu. His earth style traveling under ground, chidori, and sharingan. Yet he has hundreds and doesn't use them. But even though he doesn't use them we know he has them but why would he suddenly use them in a match against Gai when he doesn't anytime else. And Kakashi hasn't done anything either to be called a genius.
No it's forbidden because judy using it can hurt the body. It takes a toll on the body, and isn't something to use just because he can. He didn't use it on Kisame until he had no other choice why would he use it against Kakashi in a friendly match. And what proof is there that Gai has to use a deadly technique against Kakashi when he's already said to have beaten the only advantage a sharingan user would have?
@Jaxx - The Sannin and their pupils jutsu, Tsunade's fighting ability, and if Gai is only equal to Kakashi if he uses the gates.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
A high level jutsu in his fight with Itachi? You mean his lightning attack? Compared to Orochimaru's hundreds of thousands of jutsus, Sasuke hardly knows any.
Yes he would, he learned Kage Bunshin, he uses that all the time, he learned Rasengan, he uses that all the time, if he learned another jutsu he most definately would use it, nothing suggests he wouldn't. And what do you mean Kakashi doesn't use any other moves? Kakashi pulls out new jutsus in about EVERY fight, even in the movies. We know Jiraiya has more jutsus because we seen him fight alot more then Tsunade. Tsunade and Kabuto was hardly a fight, it was more like a scuffle, She underestimated him, he hit her points, she hit him back, he exploited her pobia, fight over. Thats hardly enough to say thats the only things she's capable of. No you're failing to undersatnd that if he can beat her in seconds, he would not need to cut himself to exploit her phobia, even if Jiraiya and Shizune were there. Seconds is seconds. If he were to attack her without 100% control over his body, and her not underestimating him anymore, he definately would have lost.
No, we've seen 2 jutsus, his mokuton and his darkness. So your saying the 1st hokage who defeated Madara, is only capable of his mokuton? Theres a difference between using a certain kenkei genkai often, 'just being capable of that'. Just because a ninja chooses to use their kekkei genkai often because it is their most powerful technique, it does not mean that thats the only thing they're capable of. Tsunade fight was a minute, it was mostly talking, minus the talking and all the fight was - Kabuto hit her points, she hit him back, jiraiya and them arrive, and the scuffle is over. In Gai and Kisame's fight, he unleashed his gates, went after him, screen changes to Lee and neji, they do what they do and escape the water prisons and beat up the clones, then screen goes back to Gai chasing kisame then dodges kisame and counters with morning peacock, in the anime it was a couple minutes, in the manga it was like 7 pages.
No, every fight he pulls out new jutsus, from opponents he has copied, Kisame praised him for knowing jutsus from his village, he knows a variety of water jutsus, he knows a variety of different ground jutsus, different clone jutsus, from like water clones, to shadow clones, to even lightning clones, and summoning jutsus. Kakashi hasn't done anything to be called a genius? Except becoming a jounin at the age of 12, fighting Kakuzu and Hidan at the same time, while protecting the kids, and at the same time helping shikamaru with his plan by taking a capsule of kakuzus blood, defeating the 30% itachi clone, almost taking out peins bodies. He has done more genius things then just about anyone on the show besides shikamaru.
Lots of jutsus can "hurt the body". No where is it stated that it will decrease their lifespan or anything like that. Why would Kakashi use his sharingan in a friendly match? Its the same reason. Keep in mind that opening gates is not as deadly to Gai as it is to Lee, Gai used it for a couple minutes and was totally fine. If they were to have a "friendly match" Kakashi wouldn't use his sharingan, and Gai wouldn't open gates anyway, then they would be equal.
No Kirin is Sasuke's own attack that isn't ninjutsu per se as it doesn't involve chakra. I'm talking about the move he used to dodge Amaterasu. The clone move that Itachi refers to as being on of Oro's. I don't remember the name.
No he wouldn't. Everybody pretty much uses the same jutsu in battle. And Kakashi hardly pulls out any new moves. Earth style is a move he always does, and Chidori is something he always does. Besides the new lightning clone, and copying a move somebody else is using to counter (Zabuza/Kisame) he never uses a new move. The only new thing he's really added he's began using a lot is Kamui and that's a dangerous move to use as it drains him considerably.
I never said Kabuto can beat her in seconds...I said he can beat her. Which he could have had the others not shown up. Just because he can beat her one-on-one doesn't mean he can beat her while she has Shizune helping her out from afar. So because Kabuto used her phobia to stop her when she had help he can't win one-on-one? Even though he was confident enough to attack her head on after he did some really genius thing to make his body work properly when a normal person wouldn't have been able to? He took her hit, survived, figured out how his body worked, and went to attack her AS they showed up. Yet Tsunade was surely going to win? He's the one who underestimated her not the other way around and it cost him a few punches nothing else.
So you're saying just because Shodaime beat Madara he must have tons more moves?
Fighting equals genius how?? And doing a plan created by somebody else is genius how? And being powerful is genius how? And Kakashi knows all those jutsu because of the sharingan not because he's some genius who learned them all. And yes Kakashi knows hundreds of jutsu but when does he ever use them. Seriously he uses his one earth style attack that moves underground, chidori, and sharingan. Not very diverse for somebody who knows hundreds more than that. He's used water style twice that I can recall and that was just because he copies the person he was fighting to counter their attack.
Um yea it will. If you open the last Gate you'll die. That's will really shorten the lifespan there. And not really. Very few if any jutsu put strain on the body the way the gates, and lotus do besides Kakashi's sharingan because it isn't compatible with his body.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Yeah the clone he got from absorbing Orochimaru, which is different from Orochimaru actually teaching him it.
Why wouldn't he? He doesn't because he doesn't know anymore jutsus, rasengan, kage bunshin, are basically the only jutsus he knows. Kakashi usually pulls out new jutsus in battle, the water barrier, water clones, water explosion, doton dyuheki, shadow clone, lightning clone, those were just off the top of my head that weren't just a similtanious copy move.
Why do you think he can beat her? If he can beat her why did he need to use a soldier pill? He got the hits when she underestimated him, and he cut off her muscles, then she hit him back, and had the upper hand at the end of the fight, he didn't have complete control over his body. Being confident to attack her head on means he is going to win? He was planning to exploit her phobia before Jiraiya came up, the fact is he JUST figured out how to move about 80% of his body, he says "you're afraid of blood right" which means he knew he couldn't defeat her and thats why he resorted to cutting himself, not that he did it because the 3 showed up, he planned to do it BEFORE the 3 showed up anyway.
No i'm saying because he was a great ninja, trained the 3rd hokage, it is MORE likely he has more then 2 jutsus.
Doing a plan created by someone else? Huh? Where is it stated that Shikamaru told Kakashi to get blood from Kakuzu? Kakashi got the blood by hiding in the trees and attacking. Being able to learn fast in the ninja world means your a genius. Its even stated a couple times in the manga that he's as smart as shikamaru. Right after Gaiden its said "He's smarter then Shikamaru, has a better sense of smell then Kiba, has better sharingan then Sasuke, and better taijutsu then Rock Lee" Like i said before, Kakashi always uses a new jutsu in about every fight, i don't see why you don't understand that. The only time we didn't see him use a new jutsu we haven't seen before is the fight against 30% Itachi which was really short.
Well obviously they aren't going to use the last gate unless they plan on committing suicide, shuriken rasengan is dangerous to naruto, opening gates can be dangerous to gai if he overdoes it, sharingan can be dangerous to kakashi if he overuses it.
The fact he absorbed Oro, and used that move means he knows Oro's moves.
Why doesn't Sasuke use all the moves he knows? Why does Kakashi only use a few moves? Why did Sarutobi only use a few moves when he knows every jutsu in Konoha? And when has Kakashi used any of those water moves besides water clones?
Using a soldier pill doesn't amp you to inconcievable levels or Kiba could beat anybody. And it's not like it ever states the soldier pill wore off. No he got the hits because he was able to dodge her weak taijutsu skills. The only reason she got the upper hand at the end of the fight was because he thought the fight was over, wasn't looking at her, and then got hit making his body unable to move properly. And she still didn't one-shot him with her vast strength. She pretty much didn't hurt him at all and he was able to figure out how to move his body and was about to attack again. How does him saying that mean he was going to run up to her and cut himself if they hadn't arrived? There isn't anything to suggest he was going to do anything like that until they arrived to save her.
He probably does have more than two jutsu. But they are all probably based around Mokuton which is what I said. He knows Mokuton, and the darkness jutsu. Just because his student, who surpassed him in strength, learned a lot of jutsu doesn't mean he knows any other jutsu beside variations with his Mokuton.
Shikamaru was the one who gave Kakashi the capsule to get the blood. It was all part of Shikamaru's plan to beat Hidan. Kakashi hid because it was part of the plan to sneak attack. Kakashi didn't come up with it on his own. You're using a line by Naruto about his teacher to prove Kakashi is a genius? What has Kakashi ever done that is genius. And using jutsu he learns automatically isn't genius because of his sharingan. Kakashi hasn't done any brillant plans, he didn't learn any moves by his own learning. He's strong, fast, and a good fighter but he's not some genius strategist or anything like that. In the Zabuza fight he copies Zabuza's water moves, then uses summon, and chidori, his next fight is a bunch of no-name ninja, then he fights Itachi, and does nothing new, and pulls out Kamui against Deidara. What does he do new against Kakuzu? And now all he did knew was a variant chidori, and lightning clone.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
He was able to use it BECAUSE he absorbed Orochimaru, its not something Orochimaru taught him how to do.
EXACTLY, i think you're starting understanding my point now, just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesnt exist, just because you didn't see Tsunade do any jutsus in a minute, doesn't mean she has zero jutsus. Kakashi did the water explosion against Zabuza. Water clone against itachi, water barrier against itachi.
I never said it did, but it does give you a boost. The soldier pill wouldn't wear off that fast. Yeah because she underestimated him and was justu aiming to one shot him like an "ordinary ninja" she's capable of using the same kind medical enhancements, but didn't. Obviously, she just got her muscles cut which means she needs time to recover her enourmous strength again. WHAT? Nothing suggests he wasn't going to exploit her phobia?? How about him saying:
"You're afraid of blood right?"
"I'll show you some now!"
He says this BEFORE the 3 arrive.
Based around mokuton? The darkness jutsu isn't based around Mokuton at all, which means he's obviously capable of learning different kinds of jutsu.
Says who? Kakshi gave Shikamaru the capsule, it's shown in the picture, nothing says Shikamaru told Kakashi to get it, the fact that he didn't say it was "MY" plan, means it wasn't exactly HIS plan, so either they planned it together, or Kakashi told him what to do with it. Kakashi became a jounin at the age of 12-13, only a genius can do that. Most people think that being a Jounin just requires good fighting ability which is totally wrong. A jounin needs to be well all-around with brains included. Take genin Neji, and Sasuke for example, they had atleast a chuunin level of fighting ability, but they didn't have the rest of the requirements and thats why they didn't pass the chuunin exam. a chuunin should be able to teach at the academy for beginner ninjas. Kakashi was a Jounin skill-level at the age of like 12, which means he has the around the same level of fighting tactics/brains as Asuma, etc, and can lead a genin team.
Against the first fight, he used water explosion, Zabuza didn't, Kakashi already knew that move, summoning the dogs was new, he fights itachi and does water barrier, water clone, things we've never seen. He used douton dyuheki, and raiton bunshin against Pein, Kakashi never actually fought Deidara, just did an attack against him thats it. Kakuzu was about the only fight where he didn't do anything "new" because he had to bust out 4 raikiri's right at the beginning of the fight, to save the kids. Wasting anymore chakra on jutsus would be stupid.
I never said he was taught. I just said he has to know some because of the sharingan.
When did he do exploding water clone against Zabuza? I know he did regular water clone after copying during battle but I don't remember exploding one.
He also says it's time to get serious right before he attacks, and your forgot one thing he says during that. He says he's going to spill her blood until she's on the brink of death. What part of threatning to spill her blood, and charging at her makes you think he's going to cut himself?
Yes, attacks based on his wood jutsu. Just like Haku has different attacks but all based on his ice jutsu. And the mist use water based attacks. And all the different chidori variants Sasuke uses. I never said the darkness was part of Mokuton, and all ninja can learn different jutsu. But they don't. There is no reason to think that Shodai knows any other types besides all his wood jutsu.
Kakashi knew nothing about Hidan or Kakuzu why would he come up with a plan about people he didn't know. It was Shikamaru's fight, the team was going to go without Kakashi until Tsunade stopped them, and then Shikamaru tells the others his plan while changing parts to fit Kakashi in. All Kakashi did was follow the plan, and then fight Kakuzu until Naruto arrived.
Kakashi used his Earth Style move in his fight against Sasuke, and agains Itachi. It wasn't anything new against Pein.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
My point was that Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiraiya never really taught their students ninjutsus. Which was what you were trying to use to claim that Tsunade knows zero ninjutsus, because she didn't teach Sakura any.
I never said he did an exploding water clone against Zabuza. He did water explosion against Zabuza, the first time he defeated Zabuza. The water dragon jutsu, Kakashi copied, then after that Kakashi did the water explosion which defeated Zabuza.
Which doesn't mean anything except a taunt, he knew blood was his trump card, whether it would be from him or her, he was going to use it to his advantage. The fact that he's going to use blood to defeat her instead of neutralize her like he was originally going to do. Charging at her without full control over his body would mean he would most likely lose, however his confidence comes from him having his trump card to exploit her phobia.
You're not understanding, the 1st hokage uses mostly mokuton jutsu because thats his best jutsu, it does NOT mean thats the only thing he's capable of, just "mokuton" jutsus, the fact that he knows DARKNESS jutsu (which has nothing to do with mokuto) means he's obviously capable of learning other jutsus. Sasuke is capable of learning other jutsus as well, like katon for example.
You really think Shikamaru just hid the abilities of Hidan and Kakuzu from Kakashi? Obviously they told him, and he incorperated his own abilities into the plan. Its not like Shikamaru expected Ino, or Chouji to get Hidans blood, only Kakashi is capable of that.
Kakashi NEVER used doton doryuheki on itachi or sasuke, that was the first time we've seen him use it.
If you want to get technical. Tsunade and Jiraiya both taught their students ninjutsu. Tsunade taught medical ninjutsu to Sakura, and Jiraiya taught Rasengan and variations on it, and summoning jutsu. Oro was the only one not shown to teach Sasuke a new jutsu.
If he was going to cut himself he wouldn't have thought to himself it was time to get serious, and charged at her. He'd have just cut himself. He was attacking her, and threatning to cut her. Not himself at all. It wasn't until three other people showed up he realized he couldn't win. After all it would be hard to fight Tsunade with Naruto, and Shizune helping out, which they would have. And if Jiraiya decided to do something it was even less possible to win. Taking her out with her phobia was the only thing he could do and survive. Which has nothing to do with what he was going to do before the arrived.
Everybody is capable of learning other jutsu that the element they always use. Doesn't mean they do learn them. Just because he could have doesn't mean he did.
Because Shikamaru saying he's revising the plan to FIT in Kakashi means nothing? Shikamaru already had the plan, and just added Kakashi while tweaking it a bit. There is nothing to suggest it was Kakashi's plan. Kakashi just went along to help because Tsunade wouldn't let them go alone.
Which Earth style move are you talking about? Because the only Earth style move I remember him doing was when he came up from under the ground to attack Pein. Just like he came up from the ground, and pulled Sasuke under, and just like he came up from underground against Itachi after using the clone to trick him.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
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Nov 14th, 2008 07:06 AM
