Those aren't neccesarily Ninjutsu, the main 3 jutsus are ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, then there are other jutsus like sealingjutsu and summoning jutsu. Rasengan, Medical Jutsu doesn't neccearily fall into the Ninjutsu category, ninjutsu usually requires handseals, chakra, and an element. Rasengan and and Medical jutsus are jutsus but they don't exactly fall into one of the 3 categories. Jiraiya didn't teach any ninjutsu to Naruto because Rasengan isn't really ninjutsu, he taught him summoning yes, and orochimaru taught sasuke summoning, sakura doesn't know how to summon, but does that mean Tsunade doesn't know how to summon? Nope. Thats why comparing students to teachers is fallacy.
He basically says he was going to exploit her phobia right before the 3 show up, which means he charged at her with an intent on doing so, whether it be her blood or his, it was his trump card. Thats why he was so confident, but he most likely wasn't going to win because well, he didn't ahve control over his body, but even if he didn't win he could always cut himself to gain the upper hand.
Why wouldn't he? Just because he specializes in mokuton doesn't mean he doesn't know any other kinds of jutsus, darkness jutsu is proof that he went out of his way to learn a jutsu not related to mokuton.
Nothing suggested that Kakashi didn't help him with the plan, after-all who knows Kakashi's abilities more then Kakashi himself? Hence why Shikamaru said it was "our" plan, and not "my" plan.
Doton Doryuuheki, where he brings up a ground wall surrounding his opponent so that his opponent cannot escape, we've seen the 3rd Hokage do it, but kakashi's wasn't anywhere as big as the 3rd's
Last edited by Terryc250 on Nov 20th, 2008 at 01:36 AM
Rasengan is a ninjutsu. It doesn't require handseals but it's still ninjutsu. And isn't it called Medical Ninjutsu? Hmm I wonder if Sakura would have the chakra to summon Katsuya.
There is a big difference in exploiting a phobia like he does after they show up, and him threatning to nearly kill her by making her bleed to death.
Knowing the darkness jutsu doesn't mean he knows any other jutsu not mokuton related either. There isn't any proof he learned anything else. Just like there isn't any proof that Nidaime knows anything but water attacks.
There isn't anything to suggest Kakashi had any input. And Shikamaru knows enough about Kakashi to use him to do that. He was sitting right there when Sasuke does Chidori and Gai explains that it's Kakashi's signature move. I seriously doubt he's forgotten how powerful Chidori was by genin Sasuke, and could guess how skilled Kakashi would be in it, and how easy it would be to hit a stationary opponent. It's not like he made Kakashi do something incredible that only Kakashi should know about like use Kamui to end it instantly while they were captured.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Rasengan doesn't require handseals, or even element, theres hardly anything Ninjutsu about it, The typical ninjutsu is handseals, chakra, element, then the shouting of "Nimpo, Katon - Ryuuka no Jutsu" or something like that. Its hard to tell what Rasengan is because it has no handseals, no element, or anything, its just a ball of controlled chakra. It can maybe even be considered taijutsu, because alot of Taijutsu requires chakra to be gathered at a point of the body, and doesn't require an element or handseals.
He says "So you're afraid of blood" which is basically saying he's going to exploit her phobia, which is blood. It's not like he says "i'm going to kill you".
I'm saying he most likely knows more then just the two jutsus, sometimes we have to just go by logic, just because you only see something does not mean its all the character has, Kakashi for example, we've seen quite a few of his jutsus, does that mean he's only capable of those jutsus that we've seen? No, he has much more, it was even stated he copied over a thousand jutsus. Or even Orochimaru, you really think he's only capable of doing the jutsus we've seen? He probably has thousands of more jutsus.
Again, it wasn't entirely Shikamaru's plan to have Kakashi use chidori or whatever, in the picture it shows KAKASHI saw with his sharingan the element type of jutsu, and he used what was best against it, Shikamaru obviously didn't know what he was going to do, thats why he has the surprised look on his face, they both planned it together, hence he said it was "our" plan, and not "my" plan.
Last edited by Terryc250 on Nov 20th, 2008 at 04:44 AM
It's an incomplete ninjutsu the 4th was making of course it doesn't have elemental nature to it. And they don't say any elemental name to chidori but it's still a ninjutsu. Both Rasengan and Chidori are both said by their one name..or in Kakashi's case the nickname. The 4th developed it without handseals. That doesn't suddenly make it not a ninjutsu.
Because he isn't going to kill her..He pretty much makes that clear with the last part he says of that. He was going to attack her, and slice her up to make her bleed nearly to death. He stopped his original plan of attack because they showed up right in front of him. He wouldn't have went towards her if he was planning on cutting himself. It doesn't matter what he was going to do with her phobia or whatever the point is his original plan was to cut slice her up and make her suffer.
Kakashi, Sarutobi, Orochimaru, and even Itachi are completely different than everybody else. Kakashi, and Itachi can automatically copy moves, Oro's who purpose was learning forbidden ninjutsu, and Sarutobi is specifically stated to know ever jutsu in Konoha. Neji can go learn Katon jutsu if he wanted. But he isn't. Just like Shodaime could know plenty of other types of jutsu. There is probably a better chance that he doesn't than he does.
The whole plan was for one of them to get Kakuzu's blood. And Shikamaru knew his ability was to harden. Shikamaru may not have told him to do Chidori but him not attacking with the others, him getting the blood, and Shika leaving with Hidan was Shikamaru's plan. The way they attacked, the formation, and when they attacked.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
..chidori is obviously a lightning nature.. Rasengan is pure chakra. There's really nothing ninjutsu about Rasengan, there's no handseals, no element nature, or anything.
At first he was going to just neutralize her, that failed, then obviously his plan b was to exploit her phobia, why? Because he isn't able to neutralize her. Hence why he says "You're afraid of blood, i'll show you blood now" <-- that means he is going to exploit her phobia. He ran at her with an intent to fight her, with obvious confidence that he can exploit her phobia.
Almost any ninja can learn their nature type of jutsu, and any jutsu that doesn't require a nature type, for example Henge jutsu, or Bunshin jutsu. Those are things even kids ninjas can do. More skilled ninjas can learn other jutsus, different kinds of bunshins, etc. Which goes back to my point that both first and second Hokage probably know alot more then just the jutsus they have shown.
Thats all just speculation. All we know is that it was "their" plan and not "shikamaru's" plan, judging by Shikarmaru's reaction, he did not know what Kakashi was going to do.
Rasengan is also incomplete. That's the only reason it had no elemental nature. It also seems to be impossible to mix with elemental chakra since Kakashi can't do it.
There is still a difference in him cutting himself and him cutting her. The latter was his original plan he just changed it to cutting himself when they showed up. He was going to show Tsunade her own blood.
Like I said just because the could know more doesn't mean they do. Most ninja never show more than one type of jutsu unless they are sharingan users with special exceptions to Sarutobi and Orochimaru.
Not knowing what attack he was going to do, because Kakashi realized the ninjutsu was Earth-type, doesn't mean Kakashi hanging back to attack last wasn't part of Shikamaru's plan. And saying 'their' plan could include Ino, and Chouji also. As in the team's plan. He says it didn't matter who got the blood the plan was just to get Kakuzu's blood.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Its only possible for Naruto. No one else, other people can learn Rasengan but it's impossible to add the wind nature unless you have that kind of training only Naruto can do.
Nothing suggests he would have or could have done it, the fact that he wasn't even able to control 100% of his body means most likely he would've lost to Tsunade.
Special exceptions to Sarutobi and Orochimaru? What about the First Hokage? Darkness has nothing to do with his element. What about Asuma? He was able to use Fireball jutsu. All great ninjas should be versed in different kinds of jutsus, ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu.
Yes exactly, the teams plan, which means he had help with it, it was of course Kakashi's idea to hide and observe with his sharingan, Shikamaru did not know of that. The rest is just speculation.
Cutting her would draw blood..Which would probably stop her from doing anything. The original plan was to cut her, which would probably result in her phobia taking over to stop her from healing, and nearly kill her in the process. He resorted to cutting himself because other interfered.
I'm gonna have to read Asuma's death again. I don't remember him doing any fireball jutsu. And yes every Jonin is suppose to have two elemental natures anyway. That being said it doesn't mean they use them. Neji should have two elemental natures. But I seriously doubt he's going to be pulling out anything not related to the Gentle Fist style of fighting. Gai should have two nature elements but I highly doubt we're going to see him doing anything not taijutsu. And just because Shodaime knows one thing unrelated to Mokuton doesn't mean he know that many jutsu at all.
I seriously doubt Chouji or Ino would help come up with any of the plan. And your just assuming Kakashi made up his part of the plan. Even though before they fight Shikamaru tells them his plan and for everybody to remember their part. He doesn't ask for input or anything. He already had the plan figured out before he even left Konoha. That was the only reason he left when he did. Because he had a plan figured out, and then just improvised on what he already had to include a fourth person.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Which is him exploiting her phobia, his original plan was to neutralize her by disabling her muscles, that plan failed.
Yes thats how he got the burns on him, he shot the fireball at Hidan while Hidan cursed him. You're either an expert in one thing, or you're not, no one in the series is restricted to only 2 jutsus. Shodaime uses mokuton, but the fact that he also uses darkness jutsu means he learns other jutsus, not just his mokuton and his darkness jutsu. He was the one who taught the Sarutobi, so of course he probably taught Sarutobi some jutsus when he was younger. Gai probably knows more jutsus then just taijutsu, he probably taught tenten how to summon weapons, but he is a taijutsu expert so he mainly fights with taijutsu.
So then if chouji or ino didn't help with the plan, he probably meant "our" meaning him and kakashi. You don't see the entire discussion of the plan, so again its speculation. Nothing said that he didn't have help improvising Kakashi's part, again Kakashi knows his own abilities better then anyone, obviously Kakashi helped him on the part to attain the blood, thats why its their plan and not shikamaru's plan, and thats why shikamaru had the 'surprised' expression, and not the 'expected' expression
Both of their original plans failed. I meant after her figured out how to move his original plan was to nearly kill her not cut himself.
I said two elemental types. Kakashi even says that Jonin use two elements and that bloodline limits are two elements put together. Shodai could possible use jutsu from the two elements that create Mokuton. But that doesn't mean he knows many if any at all. Or any strong ones. The darkness thing is genjutsu. Just because he knows one genjutsu doesn't mean he know anything else. And Nidaime and Shodaime both taught Sarutobi not just Shodaime. Which really has no bearing on what Sarutobi knows since he knows more jutsu than anybody.
What makes you think he taught Ten-Ten weapons? He didn't teach Neji any of his attacks, Asuma didn't teach anything to his kids, Kurenai didn't teach anything to her kids, and Kakashi didn't teach anything to Naruto and Sakura. Gai, and Kakashi were only shown to teach anything to their favorite student.
Shikamaru even says it doesn't matter who did it they just needed Kakuzu's blood in a capsule. Just because Kakashi decided to use Chidori after seeing Kakuzu use an Earth style to protect himself just means he probably improvised a bit. Doesn't mean he changed the plan just used a different attack that wouldn't take a genius to realize since lightning > earth. He says 'That was our strategy' yes. But that hardly means the others came up with anything.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
He had 80% of his body figured out, he ran towards her, where do you think his confidence comes from? Most likely the fact that he can at any point exploit her phobia like he taunted about her being afraid of blood.
No, each individual LEANS towards an element, Kakashi said to become a Jounin you need to beable to control a MINIMUM of two chakra elements, meaning people can use more then that, he said Jounins have ATLEAST two, however naturally one person leans towards an element. Shodai uses Earth and Water to create his Mokuton, Shodai ATLEAST has water jutsus, and earth jutsus, and probably even different element jutsus as well, because remember two elements are only a MINIMUM (to become a jounin). Take a look at Yamato for example, you think he only knows Mokuton jutsus because that was the only thing he used in battle right? Wrong, in his demonstration he did the "Doton: Doryuuheki" then "Suiton: Takitsubo", and Yamato isn't even one of the more experienced Jounin, he is one of the younger ones. A great ninja like Shodaime who defeated Madara, besides his mokuton probably has many great Suiton and Doton jutsus, and different jutsus from other elements as well.
Neji only uses his kekkai genkai, how would Gai teach him his own bloodline, who else would of taught tenten how to summon weapons? We don't know what kurenai taught to her kids, because we barely see them even together, her kids have their own special abilities anyway. Kakashi taught the three some basics, like genjutsu, thats how they were able to tell before the chuunin exam the room number, and he also taught them basics about controlling chakra and all that(running up the tree), the other jounins have most likely did that to their kids, but kakashi only stayed with the trio until the chuunin exam, then naruto went off with Jiraiya, Sakura went with Tsunade, Sasuke went to Orochimaru.
Of course it didn't matter who got the blood, thats obvious. Getting the blood was part of the plan, im not denying it wasn't. But nothing suggests that Kakashi didn't do anything or even helped with the plan, as Shikamaru was shocked to see how Kakashi obtained it
And he was going to exploit her phobia by slicing her up. Not himself...His whole threat was to show Tsunade her own blood not his blood.
Yet...just because they can learn more than two doesn't mean they do learn more than two. You hardly ever see anybody use more than one type regularly. Just because Shodai was strong, and probably because of his bloodline ability, doesn't mean he suddenly has to know a whole lot of ninjutsu much less from different elements than the one that make up Mokuton.
We don't know anything about TenTen. It could be her family trait. Just like Shino's is the bugs, and Kiba's is using dogs. And how is Kurenai going to teach any of her students about anything they do when she's a genjutsu specialist. And basics aren't anything special. I'm talking about anything worthwhile. Like Kakashi did with Sasuke, and Gai did with Lee. Actually teaching them moves, and everything not teaching them something every ninja should know. I'd find it really hard to believe that Gai taught TenTen anything about her fighting style. The only person to actually not have her own style was Sakura, who we know her parents aren't ninja so it makes sense.
Obviously Kakashi didn't plan on Chidori either until he saw it was an Earth element. Just because Kakashi's choice of attack changed doesn't mean the plan was altered in anyway from what Shikamaru said. Just because Naruto called Kakashi smarter than Shikamaru that means Kakashi has the right to, off-panel, have any kind of input in Shikamaru's plan why? Kakashi improvising an attack doesn't mean anything. After all it's not like he knew before he say Kakuzu use the move that it was Earth style. So he's not going to be telling Shikamaru he'll stay back and use Chidori because they use Earth style. He made that decision while hiding.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
The whole point of the threat was that he is going to exploit her phobia, because obviously cutting her tendons isn't going to work.
If the requirements to become a jounin is a Minimum of two, that doesn't mean that most Jounins will just learn two, then stop just so they can be a jounin, most likely the higher experienced jounins know more then two, but stick to using mostly their two most powerful in battle, like how Yamato only does Mokuton usually in battle when he can use suiton and doton as well, or even why Kakashi has rasengan but never uses it, ninjas mostly just use techniques their best at, it doesn't mean thats all they have, or that they don't have it.
It's like saying Minato is only capable of doing body flicker and rasengan. Just because he's shown with limited jutsus doesn't mean thats all he's capable of, his status as 4th Hokage and described as a once in a lifetime genius (or whatever) means he's probably capable of tons more jutsus
Could be, or it could not be, we'll never know until we see her family. We can only speculate because we know next to nothing about Tenten.
But where's proof that Shikamaru came up with the entire plan and even Kakashi's part? Did Shikamaru say "go hide in the trees"? I highly doubt it, there's no evidence that he did, its their plan, not shikamaru's plan.
Last edited by Terryc250 on Nov 21st, 2008 at 02:16 PM
I just said he was going to exploit it...but by using her own blood not his.
And just because they can learn more than two different elements doesn't mean all of them have the need to learn stuff they won't use. That's really just my point. They can but that doesn't mean they do.
The point is, he had to exploit her weakness. The rest is just a taunt he couldve used her blood or his blood, the taunting isn't relevent he could've said "i'll rip off your head til the blood shoots out" but it doesn't mean he will, its just a taunt.
Why wouldn't they use it? Why would great ninjas aim for the minimal requirement? A lot of shinobi knows more then 2 but only use their main element, or their kekkai genkai, or whatever they're good at, it doesn't mean they're incapable though. Like Asuma for example, he mostly just fights with his weapon, but it doesn't mean he has zero ninjutsu.
Taunting was what he was doing when he got punched, and when he said that such an attack won't stop him. There is a difference between a threat and a taunt. He wouldn't have had to run at her if he was just going to cut himself. He would have did just what he did when help arrived. Staid still and let her come to him. Besides who actually looked the more skilled in fighting in that battle? The one who was able to dodge, and counter or the one who just smashed everything in the way with linear attacks?
How about we just agree to disagree on this. Because I had a whole thing written out but it'll just keep going back in circles. There isn't any proof for or against Jounin knowing more than two ninjutsu. Sure they can but being able to do something doesn't always mean they do.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
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Nov 20th, 2008 01:30 AM
