I've stated repeatedly that Kenshiro is NOT on Goku's level, at least we can be certain DBZ Goku, I was just replying to your assertion that Kenshiro can't become invisible through speed, which he can.
As for 350 times Gravity? Ironically, that would be a piss-walk for Ken. He may weigh 35 tonnes, but Ken handed over a rock weighing nigh 1000 tonnes like a birthday cake, and he wasn't using the Spinning Dragon Breathing technique, so he was still only at 30% of his max capacity.
The DBZ lifting/gravity strength feats are no where near as good as their striking feats, which are way above Ken's.
I dont think the gravity thing work like that but to each its own. I know that either of these android could one shot ken and thats the point that Im trying to make.
I know how fast ken is, he's fast to be a human but I just dont think that hes faster than the goku that fought junior and his actual body reaction and speed pales to the goku that fought king picollo.
That must have been an old comic as we all know he's faster than light. But as you can see, he doesn't have to catch bullets. Afterall, he is "The Man of Steel". He can easily take them.
If combat speed, you mean as in "moving around", there's plenty for Superman moving around at high speeds, doing things other than just fighting. As for fighting speed, all know is that they fight really fast in DBZ. We don't know HOW fast they can fight.
Kenshiro WOULD be a match for Nappa. I'm not saying it would be a stomp but both Kenshiro's speed, strength, and the Muso Tensei are enough to give Nappa a fight and most likely beat him. What Nappa does have over him is flight and firepower. He may not go down very quickly but in the end he will lose.
Goku can't lift the type of boulder Kenshiro was lifting in HNK2 (which was obviously more than 40 tons).
Last edited by Bro SMASH on Mar 12th, 2009 at 11:09 PM
Thinking about it, Vegeta doing 1 finger stand pushups in 400 G was a good DBZ strength feat late on.
Dr Brief told him that a 60 kilo man would weigh 24 tonnes in that gravity, so Vegeta can certainly lift at least that much with a finger at that point. Vegeta's muscled up, so he might weigh around 100 kilos, in which case that figure is 40 tonnes.
Early DBZ Goku was a lot less impressive, because at first, he found 10Gs difficult.
Vegeta also does some speeding about in that gravity, but that would be ki assisted, so it might not count. With their ki, they can lift a lot more than Ken. Piccolo raised several Pyramids with his mind.
The Androids themselves have no speed feats. But we know they are fifty times faster than Base Gokou on Namek at the very least since ssj Vegeta was stronger than ssj Gokou on Namek. And Ken's speed feats are in the same ballpark as late DB/early DBZ. He should never touch them. They are faster, have endless stamina, and hokutoshinken won't work. 18 may have a kid but she also isn't human and they aren't living. They have no ki which all living beings have no matter how weak.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
That really doesn't make any sense. There's no way a non-living being can somehow have a kid. They have to be humans, especially since, from what I heard, they didn't have any powers at all until Dr. Gero "remodeled them". That there should be enough to show you that they are humans, just artificially enhanced.
Being stronger and being faster are two different things. We still never got to see Goku fight them, thus using him for these things is pretty useless. Plus, Vegeta and Goku are on two different levels, with two different powersets so they have their own advantages and disadvantages over each other.
Still, I go by the speed feats of the actual characters and for the androids, I can't say that it's all that impressive.
I just think Akira just forgets what he writes. The androids have no ki, every living thing has ki which is said. Akira calls Cell an Android and it was grown from cells of fighters, has ki, and no robotic parts yet absorbs robots. Things aren't meant to make sense it seems.
And Vegeta and Gokou have the same exact power set just different fighting styles. Just like Toki, Raoh, and Ken have the same powerset just different fighting styles. And just because they didn't fight Gokou doesn't mean they wouldn't beat Namek Saga SSJ Gokou. Trunks and Vegeta both ssj were > Namek ssj Gokou in every aspect and had nothing on the androids when they fought. And the Androids were not being serious. And why is it impossible to see that the Androids are so much faster than anything from DB or early DBZ. There is nothing to put Ken above that level, and with Kaiokenx20 he'd be around Gokou's level at most when Gokou was using Kaiokenx20 and still being beaten in speed by Freeza not even full power.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
1. I think the problem is everyone was under the impression that they were androids and really had no idea that they were actually humans.
2. I think you mean "same fighting style, just different powersets" which just shows you that you can't just use ones feats for another, unless proven otherwise. This definitely goes for DBZ, as every non regular human can fly, shoot energy beams, and move at superspeed. However, from there, everything else is different. And I'm not saying that the androids can't beat Namek saga Goku but we never know how they would be him either, so simply saying they would speedblitz him is kind of speculating. Everyone don't always win because of speed. 18 was able to beat Vegeta because she had unlimited stamina, not because she was faster. 17 in their first encounter, took out Piccolo because he was stronger, not because he was faster. You see? There's plenty of ways to win.
They were human at once..But so was Gero but he turned himself into a complete robot. 17 and 18 were stronger versions of what he did to himself. They were humans once but that's about it. 18 having a kid doesn't make sense as she doesn't have a life force, which is what ki is. The life force of every living thing. Gohan tells this to Videl.
No I mean same powerset, different fighting styles. They all have the same powerset, the energy within them. They were all just trained by other people, or trained themselves. Everything about what they use is the exact same. What one person can do somebody more powerful can do the same thing even easier. 18 let Vegeta beat on her, took his blast without any effort, toyed around with him, and then broke his arm. She wasn't even trying. And it was speed, and strength the 17 beat Piccolo the first time. Piccolo came at him full speed, and he caught Piccolo's punch, and then hit him. And the first attack Piccolo came from behind, and 17 dodged and hit him. And at that time 17 nor 18 were being serious as they just like to have fun. The reason 17 would've beaten Piccolo the second time was because of stamina. Every battle is won because of speed, and/or firepower. After Radditz anyway. Even then it was still firepower that beat Radditz.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
1. Again, she possibly does have a life force, but not a very strong one and since they're under the impression that she's a complete robot, they ASSUME she doesn't have a life force.
2. They weren't trained by other people. They all trained in the art of Hokuto Shinken by the same master. The techniques they used, though, were different (like for example, Toki's healing technique).
3. 18 was blocking Vegeta's hits. She didn't really start attacking him until it was obvious he was slowing down. She knew this would happen, that's why she kept pissing him off. 17 only just avoided Piccolo's hits. That's it. 17's hits were much stronger Piccolo's. They ultimately were the attacks that put him out. Speed really had nothing to do with it.
I meant Z Fighters. Even still Toki and Raoh use their own styles but its the same power set.
18 wasn't trying though. Vegeta's ultimate attack didn't even phase her. She also easily dodged Vegeta. It's like 18 and 17 in Future Trunks time. They let him punch them. And 17 still effortlessly blocked Piccolo's attack. Strength may have put Piccolo down but speed involved hitting Piccolo when he charged from behind and when he attacked and was blocked as 17 let Tien go.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
2. I don't know when Vegeta used his "ultimate" attack but 18 sure wasn't holding back. She had no interest in killing him but that doesn't mean she was holding back. In fact, had Vegeta kept his cool, the result probably would have been different (though he might still lose).
No Toki used Raoh's style to fight Raoh. Toki's style is a more defensive flowing type style. Raoh's is more offensive. Their personalities go with their style.
Vegeta used Big Bang Attack on her. And that was his ultimate attack until he created Final Flash. And I believe she even says she's not being serious.
Strength won't let you easily counter a faster opponent...Piccolo attacked and 17 countered.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
1. That's all part of Hokuto. All of those techniques were part of Hokuto Shinken. Don't forget that that style has all kinds of different techniques, whether it's healing or fighting.
2. That must have only been in the anime.
3. Yes, 17 countered but since the fight didn't last long simply because Piccolo taken down by hits, speed had little to do with that. I'll now admit that speed was involved but not significantly.
I'm not talking about Hokutoshinken techniques. I'm talking about how all four brothers fought differently. They may have had the same master but their personalities shaped their style. Jagi used weapons, Ken uses just enough power to beat an opponent, Raoh crushes anybody, and Toki who hated to fight used more of a defensive style and in one fight used a persons momentum against them. Ken even references Raoh and Toki's different styles the time Raoh and Toki fight and Toki dies. They all know the same techniques but use it in completely different ways so that its become their own style basically.
Its in the manga. Its right before she asks if Gokou is stronger then calls Vegeta weak. Then Piccolo says Vegeta is tiring but 18 isn't. Not that it matters as 18 was doing perfectly fine against him while holding back at the start of the fight while Vegeta only held back his blasts and boasting it would destroy Earth if he didn't.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
1. No matter how much you try to put it, they all still use the same style, regardless of how it's used. They may use it based on their personalities but in the end, those are all techniques of Hokuto. Nothing that can change that.
2. I only remember seeing that after they were saying that, 18 was blocking all of Vegeta's hits, he gets tired, and then 18 starts attacking him from then on. I think I gotta look at that again.
Didn't Ken say he learned it can heal from Toki? I doubt Raoh knows anything about the healing part of it. And yea sure the techniques are the same, just like the basic techniques used by the Z fighters are the same. The only difference is the way they fight. Same exact powers, different way to fight.
Vegeta was blocking most of 18's attacks at the beginning but doing okay, fires a huge blast, kills some poor guy. 18 comments on how he held back, Vegeta boasts about because it would destroy Earth if he didn't. Then she headbutts him, he goes to punch her, she catches it, and hits him instead then hits him into the mountain side. She did the most damaga to hum during that fight. Before Piccolo even comments to about him loosing energy. That doesn't happen until the end of the fight before Trunks charges in.
@Wei - Toki still died during that fight. Never said Raoh killed him I said during their fight that he dies. Because they fight twice. Toki would've been killed by Raoh anyway Toki just made the inevitable happen quicker.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
KMC Community Forums
Mar 12th, 2009 09:05 PM
