This is true, but that doesn't mean the said villain has to be a merger of 2 different characters.
Mortal Kombat Deception only had one actual villain (Onaga), and he wasn't a fused being, so don't give me that.
Yes. I'm well aware of how competitive Smash/fighting works. In fact, I usually prefer no items myself, but if someone has them turned on (which I usually never do), I blend to it as well instead of quitting the match or whatever. Still fun regardless.
Hell, I generally prefer Final Destination like most do as well because of the even/fair ground, but have gotten tired of it by now and tend to do Smashville and other similar stages instead. If you just keep doin' the same stuff over and over (no items, Fox only, Final Destination!), Smash Bros. isn't anywhere near as entertaining, as jalek put it. A thing called variety.
He said fighting game fans know the difference between a competitive match and a casual match. What are you talking about here?
...unless you're interested in actual competition level play.
I don't think those were the traps he was talking about.
Unless of course, the item landed right next to the player and you're not in a position to fetch it.
The point of competitive play is to provide the best setting to determine the more skilled player. To do this, you must first remove as much "luck" from the match as possible. With items, wacky levels, etc enabled, the match's outcome has too many variables to actually determine the more skilled combatant. He's not saying something is "cheap." However, having a random godsend item land next to you gives you an advantage the other player did not have. Competitive rules generally try to avoid such situations by restricting items, levels, glitches, and sometimes even certain characters.
I understand that, and respect that, which is why I play SSBB competitively every now and then, but it bores me. I have skill to take on serious tourney players and enough skill to take on anyone with items on high. My win ratio down here with ir without items is around 90%, every now and then some awesome players kick my ass, but the items make SSBB fun! They're what make it silly and set apart from Tekken, Street Fighter, and Soul Calibur.
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Smash without items is like Power Stone without items. It just lacks.....something.
I do HOWEVER entirely agree that the fan needs to be banned. you can argue that the smash ball is problematic, but part of the game is analyzing the battlefield and taking advantage of hazards and paraphenalia.
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This has nothing to do with anything. A character's viability in competition is not determined by his status as "boss" or not. Off the top of my head, here a few examples of bosses allowed under competition rules.
Seth, Akuma, M. Bison of Street Fighter
Rugal of King of Fighters
Angelia of Arcana Heart 2
The main concern is whether or not the boss actually has abilities that make him nigh or completely impossible to beat at a high level of play. For example, Tengu was banned in Dead or Alive 2, but he is playable in Dead or Alive 4. Why? His gamebreaking advantages were removed under DOA4's new system. It does not matter if he is a boss.
You must remember, a character's power in canon rarely affects that character's abilities in gameplay. Chun Li, Ken, and Yun are widely considered the top 3 of Street Fighter 3rd Strike despite where they stand in the actual narrative.
He is definitely a step above the rest of the cast.
Fair enough. Also, I think some of you misunderstand me and some others. If you like playing with all items or stages enabled, go for it. You're the one playing and you should enjoy yourself.
I was merely explaining why certain things are not and should not be allowed in official competition.
Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 7th, 2009 at 04:56 AM
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Seth, Akuma, M. Bison of Street Fighter
Rugal of King of Fighters
All of these guys are toned down in their playable forms from their boss forms.
Gill is not. Seth and Gouki have crap stamina to compensate for their power. Dictator is just badass, he doens't need a nerf. Unless we're talking Shin Dictator, who isn't playable anyways.
Rugal on the other hand...... Only some of his forms are legal. Omega Rugal is almost always banned. God Rugal would be banned if his health wasn't shit.
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I am sayin' no, that the game is actually balanced.
Gill is not selectable in the arcade version. And he was not tonned down on purpose. You can't take the boss of the game as the only example of unbalanced charcters and then call the entire game unbalanced. You can't even pick the guy on X-Box Live, even if you unlocked'im.
You speak as if I didn't know that. Ken, Chun Li and Yun are the "Strongest" as in, they have the highest dealin' damage potentail. They are not the best. I would love to see who said they were. The SFEC states exactly word for word, this.....
"...This ranking adresses power of attacks and special attack techniques.
For general, overall strenght, Ken, Chun Li and Yun are the three characters that stand out. With solid normal attacks and easy-to-use Super Arts, Ken's potential is strong. With his ability to preform powerful target combos he is a well-balanced character. Chun Li has very good normal attacks excellent mobility. Yun's Super Arts are quite strong and the Geneijin move can deal a lot damage in a short time...."
The fact that anyone could parry and parry the same way pretty much evened er body out.
__________________ "Step back loser! Make way for the winner!" -Anakaris-
I'm pretty positive they weren't toned down unless you have the frame data/damage charts/etc to show otherwise. In addition to the other bosses I named, there are still several who are playable in competition. I won't list them all right now since this is quite irrelevant.
...Your post actually agrees with me. A character's status as "boss" isn't enough to get him banned. If a character does not hold some massive advantage in game play over the other characters, said character will not be excluded from competitive play just because he is the last person you fight in story mode.
Do you see what I'm saying here?
You're right. I forgot Gill is not playable in arcades. Despite this, my point still stands. Gill was not banned because of his boss status. I also didn't list him as the only unbalanced character.
That's the thing. Being "strongest" is what goes into the their ranking at the top of the accepted tier list for that game. Of course, ease of combo performance, difficulty, speed, and other factors go into it. In fact, you go on to list reasons why they sit at the top yourself. As for who said this, again this all the general consensus of the fighting game, specifically the 3rd Strike, community. If you want, I guess I could direct you to the numerous websites, tournaments, and players who claim this. I don't think its necessary though. It's really common knowledge now.
Parries help, but you forget one, crucial thing. In addition to their already great abilities, the big three of 3rd Strike can also parry. These characters have access to same game mechanics everyone else has, but they also access to their own abilities which are superior to most of the cast. They have very few bad match ups in the game. Chun Li doesn't have any bad match ups if I recall correctly. These guys generally dominate at the highest levels of play. I don't want to get into too technical a discussion though, so I'll make a brief and broad comparison here. I'll use Sean and Ken of 3rd Strike and Saki and Heart of Arcana Heart. Sean is generally considered one of the worst characters in the game even though he actually has many of the same options his top tier counterpart Ken has in a match. The difference is that Ken's moves are faster and he can potentially deal much more damage with less effort. At any given instance in a match, Ken has a much easier gaining dealing a larger amount of damage than Sean will in the same instance. As a result, Sean must work far, far harder to gain even less damage than Ken would have in that same position. It's things like this that unbalance the game.
Take Arcana Heart on the other hand. Heart and Saki share many similarities. Although Heart is generally considered a small step above Saki, the difference is not as hopeless as Sean and Ken. Both girls have EXCELLENT supers that lead into damaging combos and have insane priority. They are about the same speed. Saki's mixup game on wakeup with the lightning super in the corner is just as viable as her higher tier counterpart Heart. They both have nice rushdown abilities since they can clash easily with oncoming attacks and again lead into damaging combos. All of this combined with their relatively low execution barriers enables both to have legitimate chances at winning even at the highest levels of play.
I hope this clears it up a bit. I don't mean that the other characters can't win at all in 3rd Strike obviously. The gap is just larger between these characters and the rest of the cast when compared to a more balanced game like Arcana Heart FULL.
Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 7th, 2009 at 07:46 PM
-Thats not the kind of trap I was talking about... I mean for example
with snake, downsmash landmine one side of the stage, C4 the other, and start chuckin grenades to threaten the enemies spacing
-Right.. what skilled player actually throws them at someone?.. you throw them to the ground to get the legendary out immediately, causing instant pwn with no skill
-Tripping is a random event.. you can trip right into them with no way to give yourself immune frames to avoid them.. have you ever tripped into someones smash?.. same shit
I dont see how you can talk about skill when you're not interested in competitive level play
In your opinion.. smash is absolutely amazing with its core gameplay, which you , as a pro-randomness player are ignoring by focusing your tactics on items, with a very slight emphasis on what your character is actually capable of.. I find that to be more watered down than anything...
ugh I hate that feature. Always have, always will. Even when it's the opponent who trips, it doesn't feel like an actual victory when I KO/Warlock Punch them (more like a technicality). I suppose tripping was added to give casual gamers somewhat of an advantage against the more experienced players, but it still sucks for those who play seriously. They should've had an option to turn it on/off... among other things.
Blame whoever brought up Smash Bros. in this thread first.
What? This thread isn't about Super Smash Bros and Street Fighter 3rd Strike?
I remember reading that the creators deliberately included events like tripping to keep Smash Bros from actually being played competitively. It somewhat makes sense when you consider the inherent randomness and party nature of the game.
- lol.. speaking of game balance.. what do you think of the balance in SFIV?
- yeah.. sakurai had a "wryyyyyyyyy!!!!" moment when he found out melee was played in tournaments, and then concocted brawl to be his tourney-damning test tube baby
So I've started actively participating in SF 4 tourneys down here in So. Cal. Oh my god! It's begun! The stupidity!! I've been to four tourneys already that don't allow Ultras, they say it makes things fair. I tried arguing with them, but I can't win in an entire store full of mules and jackasses.
I'm sayin' cuz Gill is the boss he is better. The bosses usually are. Cuz you can't pick Gill unless you have the home version I think the balance is really good. And Gill is not unstoppable, cuz of his Resurrection you can get grades like MSF+ on the guy.
And as for the Ken VS Sean scenario. Ken can deal more damage easier, yes, But the match is not all about damage and I'm glad you used Sean cuz that's my ace in the whole.
1. 2 of Sean's super gauges are smaller than Ken's. Sean's Shoryu-Canon and Hyper Tornado do as much damage as a Shinryuken and dwarfs all of Ken's other.
2. Ken has almost no defensive game, Sean is all defense, it is even stated that compared to Ken, Sean, and I quote is "unbeatable at mid-range". Sean can literally slow the match and grab the hell outta Ken with Sean Tackles er time Ken misses a move cuz his recovery is not that great..
3. Now yes, most of Seans other moves except Dargon Smash are far less useful then Ken's but unlike ken, "Sean shines through with EXs". Kens EXs are just beefed up versions of his regular specials, Sean's on the other hand serve completely different purposes that make his moves far less risky.
The game is not "unbalanced' if some characters are easier to use. Every FG has a tier list. Ken, Chun Li, and Yun are not unbeatable, they are just the easiest for noobs to win with. That doesn't make them unbalanced. You spoke up 3rd Strike like it was horribly unbalanced. Anyone can win wit anyone was my point. And the top 3 characters peeps ACTUALLY use to win is Urien, Chun Li, and Akuma and If you want, I can show why. Unbalanced is when some characters in a game can easily beat any other character in the game. Not when the top 3 characters are easier to use and deal more damage then the others when casuals play the game. Ken, Chun Li, and Yun are top tier, not unbalanced. A skilled Ken wont easily if not at all smash as skilled Sean.
And o'course Arcana Heart FULL is more balanced than 3rd Strike (still sucks compared to 3rd Strike and most other fighters. It is THE BALANCED VERSION of a HORRIBLY unbalanced game. Like SFII CE and Super SFII Turbo, you can fix a game when you remake it. Saki VS Heart scenario is not THAT much better than the Ken VS Sean. Ken VS Sean is not that bad, in the SFEC they actually compare the 2 purposely. Sean in not THAT bad a character. True he's harder to learn and use effectively but Sean won't be stomped by anyone. You took 2 good characters in AH (The Ryu and Ken of AH) and compared it to the top tier characters of 3rd Strike VS the Joke character of 3rd Strike. That doesn't make sense. It would have been better to use Ryu and Ken to compare to a Ryu and Ken of another game, you see.
I can think of some bad match ups from AH like Konoha VS Kira and compare it to a good match up in 3rd Strike like Yun VS Chun Li.
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Mar 6th, 2009 08:19 PM
you can argue that the smash ball is problematic, but part of the game is analyzing the battlefield and taking advantage of hazards and paraphenalia.
Seth and Gouki have crap stamina to compensate for their power. Dictator is just badass, he doens't need a nerf. Unless we're talking Shin Dictator, who isn't playable anyways. 
