No, this is not what I said, not even close. I said (quite clearly I might add) that Malak is powerful because he didn’t get devoured by the Star Forge and managed to keep the other Sith Lords in line; nothing even remotely circular about this. Please refrain from attributing statements to me that I did not make.
A Dark Side Bastila made it pretty clear that no one else was strong enough, so either the bar to control an ancient: Dark Side, Force eating, Force boosting artifact is low enough to snag a pole dancer’s clit piercing and the entirety of the remaining Sith can't reach that bar because apparently they are the worst in the entire mythos or perhaps it simply took someone who was exceptionally strong in the Force (someone like Revan or Malak) to actually use the thing without getting eaten.
Go back and play KOTOR II and select the Dark Side ending for KOTOR I, then go ahead and find Bastila’s holo message on Korriban where she talks about the other Sith trying to control the Star Forge and how they failed and got eaten. The Light Side ending doesn’t contradict this, it doesn’t event take a stance on it, because the Star Forge gets destroyed. It doesn’t the change the fact that even if it wasn’t destroyed, it would still probably devour anyone not strong enough to control it.
Yes, Bandon was indeed the worst Sith ever, getting beat by Revan. He really must suck hardcore. Never mind that among the hundreds of potential apprentices Malak could have taken; he picked Bandon, Darth Lord of Suckage Extraordinaire.
Of course I spend all my time at RoK jacking off to the Ancient Sith and acting like a pseudo-intellectual dick. Please continue with poorly worded generalizations about the posters at RoK, I’m eager to see what else you come up with.
Perhaps the combination of your apparent inability to spell, almost complete lack of grammar and poor logic has put me off. The former two points can be chalked up to simple nitpicking on my part, but the latter is rather frustrating and trying to my patience.
not my gramamr n0o0o0o0o! youve certaintly proved your dominance in this battle of wits by ignoring my messages and focusing on my grammar. i bet your penis is huge isnt it? i wish i listened to more death metal so ican be cool like you.
my friend standing behind me read this reply and was like "youre an *******."
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Last edited by AthenasTrgrFngr on Aug 26th, 2009 at 12:04 AM
Marvel, you don't know what it's like to be GNz'd until I get pedantic and mean at you. Grammar Naziing is sorta my thing. It's what I do. That? That was nothing.
Since Revan is shown canonically using a lightsaber to engage the Jedi landing party as well as during the KOTOR comics cover depicting the actual Star Forge battle, I'd say it's safe to believe that he was the type to destroy his foes in combat the normal way, not skulking about with stealth generators and land mines like some people seem to think. He removed Malak's need for dental care in a fight easily enough before this same event, too. To further add to Revan's established superiority over Malak, the Sith Lord allowed Malak to live after being challenged, seeing his physical demonstration of power to be sufficient for his dominance.
Red Nemesis
The exact term used was ''melee'', which could and most likely would imply blade to blade. Yusanis' weapon was later lost and then sold after the duel, according to the item's description.
Slash
Assuming that Revan used game items which are not prominently featured in the in-universe historical records nor are customarily used by the Jedi and Sith to combat each other violates Occam's Razor so badly that it begs to be put down.
To better explain that, imagine which story seems more likely to be true -
A. Revan and Malak have an epic duel in the Star Forge, blade to blade, Force to Force. Revan emerges the victor.
B. Revan and Malak have an epic duel in the Star Forge, Revan sneaks around and uses military-grade landmines and grenades to fool and overcome a Sith Lord in a brightly lit space station. Revan emerges the victor.
Ms Marvel
Since there is no where for Revan to hide during the battle, and any average Jedi or Sith could use telekinesis on a grenade or outright avoid it with a burst of speed, this holds very little weight.
Most grenades explode at the end of a fuse or by design usually by impact (such as Cyroban grenades which are meant to put out fires) but here's the trick – they have to be thrown first. If Malak can't see Revan throwing a grenade from a long enough distance away that Revan himself is not hit by the blast radius, then he must be the Sith answer to Ray Charles.
Red Nemesis
When one makes theories about historical events, those attempting to explain them away with more complex scenarios are violating the very rule of thumb used by logical thinkers everywhere. No one argues that Julius Caesar increased the lands of the Roman Empire by virtue of communicating with aliens and establishing ice cream shops across Europe and Northern Africa as opposed to conquering outright which is supported by contemporary reports of his life.
You may also want to look into your terms here. “Psychohistory” deals with childhood behaviors and traumas shaping historical movements, not parsimony in terms of debating tactics.
Explain this? You're not making much sense here.
Ms Marvel
A grenade has to explode on the ground before shrapnel is sent out (assuming it is indeed a frag grenade) and in the meantime, it typically moves no faster than something can be thrown. Since all Force users show the innate ability to dodge or react to things which move faster than the eye can see (such as blaster bolts, pod racing tracks, or even general starfighter piloting), arguing that Malak is overcome in the moment with a grenade is impossible to support rationally.
I would think also that if Malak was overcome by grenades or mines, his body would be more resembling hamburger than just laying down peacefully in the cutscene and the comic book cover.
… But there is no evidence of these devices being carried or used in the final battle. A huge assumption is made here which has no shred of proof, yet something simple and logical like a standard lightsaber to lightsaber combat is waved away as “unlikely” by people? What's next? “Revan gunned down Malak with a Mandalorian Repeater and then stood posed above his body with his saber out?”
This proves you don't understand the concept then.
Lord Lucien
If you're arguing canon, then there is no hierarchy based on power and skill. The franchise does not have a power ladder or any such concept, although the ''greatness'' of figures throughout is a common ''gauge'' of their powers relative to those in their own eras. I don't see how anyone could argue them stacked in melee combat against characters from other eras with what little samples we are given of all Star Wars characters to date. Measuring one's fighting ability is a lot more complex than watching them in action for duels which last on average a minute or two.
If you're making up obscure explanations for otherwise straightforward events in order to prevent people from having an opinion on Revan though, I would say that is wrong. Forcing beliefs on newcomers to establish a status quo is an elitist practice, and it smothers diversity and free thinking. Or perhaps I have misread you; I'm not entirely sure.
You could argue this for any single character in the series. Realistically, you can only stack up those who have already fought with any semblance of fairness, and even then there is room for variables such as environmental factors, plot-induced stupidity, or a conveniently placed pit. Attempting to argue Revan versus Sidious or something out of context like that would only be an exercise in futility, kind of like trying to sell condoms in downtown Detroit.
O...k? My goal here was to point out that while Revan has at least one martial feat, the feat itself is totally vague. We don't know how well he beat him, if it was honorable, if he used the Force subtly so that the spectators couldn't see, if he used a trick the general had never seen, how good the general himself was etc. It is a variable being used to define a variable.
No, Ice Cream shops in Northern Africa would be silly. The economy was in the toilet!
Your point is accurate insofar as it is supported by evidence; we have solid, reliable evidence that Julius Caesar conquered the largest empire... you know the drill. We have evidence to base that upon. A question about Revan's fighting ability or style does not have this luxury. There is no way to substantiate any argument making a positive claim regarding the duel on the Star Forge. The only data we have is that Revan stood over Malak at the end with his saber drawn. To conclude that he used his saber to kill him is not necessarily logical; there have been plenty of Jedi/Sith battles (Mara Jade vs. Caedus, for example) that did not rely exclusively upon lightsaber ability.
The assumption that Revan's lightsaber ability can be evaluated because of the Star Forge duel is faulty.
The cutscene in KotOR lampshades the occasional frequent unlikely occurrences that pop up around Jedi. The simplest operation, the one we find most reasonable or logical is not guaranteed to be the one chosen.
Bottom line: Revan does not have enough evidence to substantiate his ability within combat. The only other alternative is to assume facts about him, and when you assume you make an ass out of you and me.
prove up. i want to see a bunch of average jedi dodging TK'ing away grenades. hell show me any jedi or sith TK'ing away a grenade that didnt take 5 seconds to explode. id also like to see some proof that a jedi can protect himself from shrapnel with the force.
all incorrect for the most part. the only thing going in your favor is that the grenade thrower usually tries to distance himself from the grenade.
Why. Why do more people keep coming here who all say the exact same thing.
More likely to be true =/= Fact!
Again, we make conclusions through facts and proof. If you cannot proof that Revan didn't weaken Malak by provoking him or using outside-the-box thinking, then we cannot see Revan winning by only using the Force and a Lightsaber as a fact.
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
yeah thats what i was thinking of. two masters armed /w lightsabers were killed by a shrapnel gun... so where is this logic proving force users are > grenades? going by what the canon shows i can kill a powerful jedi master myself with a 12 gauge.
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Last edited by AthenasTrgrFngr on Aug 26th, 2009 at 06:36 AM
Is there something wrong Slash_KMC with people coming to this thread and expressing their opinions? There are two different opinions or point of views that are being expressed within this thread, please do not start speaking like Lucien as if your point of view is fact.
Aug 25th, 2009 10:56 PM
my friend standing behind me read this reply and was like "youre an *******."
