You didn't read my lecture to Allankles closely enough, then. I was explaining to him what Skywalker should be, not what he is. They are, for obvious reasons, two very different things.
Welcome to KMC; we take circumstances into consideration.
Not even. He has moments where he's up there.
I must have missed the part where Vader challenged him to a duel.
Deleted scene?
Hardly. We didn't just bring up their uber l33t!1!1 moments on Project Holocron and it's an objective part of debating. We bring up Endor when we mention Sidious's immense hubris and the balancing of the Force. He was losing his perception throughout that whole week.
They're all fallible and all have weak moments. But it's to the context. Luke should be at a point where no one alive can stand up to him in a straightforward engagement. Doesn't make him invincible or infallible.
For an all powerful Force god of death? He failed to own Lumiya, who was hopelessly outmatched by Tresina Lobi despite the fact that Alema was there to lend a hand (the same Lumiya who lost a Force contest to Nelani). His subsequent victory over Lumiya came when she lost her footing after a struggle; he didn't outmaneuver her in a blaze of badass skill. Despite having numerous advantages, he failed to own Caedus in single combat. He was losing to Kueller, he was losing to Desann, he lost to the spirit of Exar Kun/Kyp Durron, he was losing to a slightly modified droideka even with Mara Jade on his side, he failed to own the Hidden One, and his wonderfully tragic performance here.
On the other hand, he won a shoving contest against Caedus once, and another time when Caedus was unprepared. He did manage to exert some measure of control over a black hole (very impressive). He demonstrated considerable telekinesis when he rebuilt and demolished Vader's fortress. And he performed as a one man army at the end of the Unifying Force (though this performance was under the influence of a battle-meld, and therefore doesn't count as one of his own feats).
I love how you bring up the "Caedus was unprepared" angle. I think we've been over that and the book was quite clear that being prepared was irrelevant, and that Caedus was in no way going to get out of Luke's TK when Luke was mad. So what do we have left? The fact that Luke is a shitty fighter but a ridiculously powerful force user, judging by all of the feats listed on wikipedia(I can't remember them all).
The narration specifically mentions it. As to whether or not it would have been irrelevant? That's open to speculation. Personally, I like to think that it would have meant that Skywalker would have simply had to exert a lot more effort to hold him, but that Caedus would ultimately have been unsuccessful.
But, as we've seen, my ideas about what Skywalker should be is something that LFL doesn't agree with.
if you want, I'll get the book out and give you the exact quotes which explicitly state that Caedus didn't have a chance with Luke being pissed off, prepared or not.
hmmm... so you are insinuating that Luke is weak but lucky?
(don't forget the ridiculous mind games he played with Caedus, (illusions, etc.) if you are naming his more impressive feats))
another use for PH could be to pull together every feat for these top characters (with page number, etc) and compare. We always look at isolated incidents instead of a body of work. \
The sidious essay was the first place where a lot of these feats were all put together for a single character, but not all were sourced to page numbers even then. (not that pg. numbers are always necessary, but they help nail it down, and exact quotes are more useful than an intepretation)
just saw this too: in Inferno, Pg. 105, Luke appears before Jacen, warns him, then vanishes. It is never explained. Caedus confirms that it was indeed Luke himself, not an illusion. What happened there? Did luke teleport with the force?
Also, in regards to luke taking caedus by surprise:
pg. 135:
" While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort--and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."
Okay, joking aside, you might as well use PH. And as for the rest? I came across all those feats and quotes for Sidious after four years of research and debating. I haven't the energy to try it again with another character.
Luke used some esoteric force technique. Also, read on after page 135. Since you have the book open I don't want to bother. But I think that quote should suffice. ALthough, I thought there was more.
Not to mention, Luke used some kind of illusion to make Caedus think he was fighting him instead of Jaina, and then meditated hard enough to alter Caedus' visions.
I think the clear picture here is that Luke is definitely THE Force powerhouse. However, his fighting abilities are severely lacking. I don't know why that is, especially because I think he should be a better fighter than force user, and it certainly isn't consistent with his fights against caedus and the Vong. So who knows.
i obviously meant weaker than your previous assessment of what he should be. that is what we were discussing, and what you quoted yourself saying repeatedly, no?
IF that is all the quote has to offer, then it doesn't change anything. Whether or not Caedus was prepared is irrelevant. Luke was able to hold him with "no visible" effort, while Caedus was struggling to get out. Unles you're suggesting that once a powerful force user has you, you can't escape, the fact remains that Luke has MORE than enough feats to be a force titan. It's his saber battles that make me scream PIS or "you suck".
"Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke-Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the force..."
or maybe:
"Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead."
or
"Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack--had he been that foolish."
But nothing new really. It is pretty much accepted that Luke definitly had Caedus's number. He played him for a fool throughout LOTF.
Aug 21st, 2009 04:35 AM
