One wound was closed up. And the gash to Kenpachi's face is not as debilitating as as the gash to Ichigo's primary sword arm. This is hardly a small wound.
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Justa mere flesh wound, right? Looks like he came really damn close to getting his damn hand cut off.
But, now you're admitting I was right, so I guess I should be thankful.
I know your slow but try to bear with me, okay?
Ichigo hadn't fully subjugated his zanpakutou yet. The materialization of zangetsu was only seen by Ichigo, so it wasn't a full subjugation yet, either. The swinging in tandem was a metaphor for Ichigo being one with his sword. GASPITY! A JAPANESE METAPHOR ABOUT BEING ONE WITH THE SWORD! NO WAY! And, you idiot. If the "hallow mask" energy face means he was using his hallow powah, then so was Kenpachi...if we are to apply your broken logic.
Riiiiiight.
Booya, mother ****er:
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But, wait, some how, you're going to justify that the energy that is starting to come off of him in the previous two pages and this one showing him going apeshit, as not amping at all. K, fine. We're done with this point cause you're definitely wrong.
Dude...this is weird as ****. Y-you.
I-I.
I'm speechless. This level of idiocy is your aboslute highest. (Not lowest...think about it.)
I just pwned your ass hardcore with your own words...and now you counter with saying, "oooooh man. You're sooo stupid. You missed my point again."
Instead of completely dodging your own self pwnage, just post, "awwww ****. Kind of screwed myself there, didn't I?"
Well unlike you guys i won't say i know because i don't. But just as i see it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that after Ichigo's inner battle with his Hollow from that moment onward in the fight he was fighting with his resolve turned up high. (Just to clarify, during the Kenpachi vs Ichigo fight)
From my perspective Byakuya is physically weaker in terms of brute strength than Kenpachi and the battle data also says that to be true if you consider it accurate. Yet Ichigo and Byakuya seem to be on about the same strength level when they fight every time after the Kenpachi fight. Which doesn't make sense if you consider the Kenpachi fight, and like me if you consider Kenpachi to be stronger.
To get to the point the reason i think Kenpachi is stronger than Sajin is simply because he was able to take not only his attack but another enemy of captain level too simultaneously and stop them dead. Both of them seemly truly surprised at this, so i am lend to believe they were not holding back.
To answer your question, no i do not believe that to be true. Perhaps if Ichigo's resolve was as strong as it can be.... i think it's possible, but normally? two words; Hell no.
This is why you're sexy. Even when I get pwned by you, you still do it elegantly.
So, yeah, I agree. I don't see Ichigo being stronger than those two. And, I only see Kenpachi using Sajin's strength against him by flipping him. I would put their strength close.
Another question....does reiryoku directly or indirectly translate to physical strength?
Another way to state that...which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Lemme expand on that: does one get more physical strength from reiryoku, or does increasing physical strength through training increase reiryoku? This, of course, assumes that the two are related. The databook would inidcate otherwise as Byakuya is obviously really strong, but not as strong as Kenpachi or Sajin...but he still has more reiryoku than most captains.
Yes, i can see what you mean, that flip does seem like the typical wrestlers move to use ones own strength against him.
I do not know. I would assume it does simply because of Aizen being able to stong Ichigo's blade with a finger. I mean, Ichigo is very muscular. So it would have to, to atleast a small extent i should thing. This would explain how people with powerful reiryoku/reiatsu usually overpower those who have weaker reiryoku/reiatsu.
I personally would suspect it's about translation. Just because you have so much reiryoku/reiatsu does not mean you are able to use it all so effectively in one area. Byakuya is a very balanced fighter, so it makes sense he's not as 'strong' as Sajin or Kenpachi.
Just an idea that last one, but so much of bleach is unexplained all we can do is call it as we see it.
To answer my own thread, no clue, but it would be a fight to see =)
K. And that explanation makes sense. Indeed, Byakuya would be a good example of someone using their reiryoku efficiently.
And, from what we can see, Kido is a very powerful tool. That's why Byakuya is rated so high in the databook: fast, strong, can use high level kido, has lots of reiryoku, etc.
To bring it back down to the real point of the thread, how about we rate Ichigo against the other captian's score as they appear in the databook?
And, btw, which Ichigoare we using again? Is it the tailed hallow ichigo, or the hallow ichigo that started to beat down Byakuya? I forgot what you said.
It's the only thing i can think of that would make some kind of sense. But it could be I'm drawing lines where there are none. As someone in here said it could just be Tibo making things up as he does along ^^' but i prefer not to think that ;p
Well that's a good question. To be honest i wouldn't have a clue. I guess through comparison with other characters it could be decided. But that might be too vague to use even if we did calculate it ;p
I said both, but unless Kenpachi uses two hands he won't stand a chance against the Lizard due to the instant regeneration. But that's not really what i had intended.
So just the one that fought Byakuya.
Here's an observation i made just now. Which is the Ichigo that fought Byakuya is (or so we can assume) the version which Ichigo fought in his inner world for dominance during the vizard training.
Ichigo when his resolve was absolute beat that Hollow. So if we then assume This hollow Ichigo, however strong, is weaker than Ichigo whose resolve is strong, then it seems to me this is indeed a good match =) Considering in my opinion i would rate Hollow Ichigo more skillful than normal ichigo. The fight between the two proves it for me ^^
So, you're saying that Ichigo's inner hallow is more skillful than regular ichigo...as evidenced by his pwnage against Byakuya, right?
Going by that, we do know that regular ichigo beat that hallow in his mind.
About all of that:
All forms are Ichigo, though. They are different manifestions of Ichigo's personality. From Zangetsu, to hallow Ichigo, to Ichigo himself. Zangetsu is just an extension of his very own soul. Just different parts of himself. It's all....kind of....crazy. I can't put it any other way. They are all part of ichigo's soul. It's really weird. It means that every shinigami has mental problems with distinct personalities. I remember talking to Nemebro about this along time ago. The fact that their personality can be broken down into any more than one ego means they have schizophrenia. This means that every single shinigami and Stark have some form of schizophrenia.
Subjugating one's zanpakutou is really just a metaphor for gaining confidence and skill. It's not literally subjugating an entity that is wholly separate away from the shinigami.
I hate to use this as an example, but think of it in terms of horcruxes from harry potter, cept without the evilness involved with having separate pieces of your soul.
It's like Kubo wanted to create avatars, pokemon, or digimon for his charcters, but without making it seem so kiddie.
^ More than one personality would be DID (Dissociative identity disorder), not Schizophrenia.
It's hard to define it as personality though, or as anything for that matter. Zangetsu could be the 'physical' embodiment of Ichigo's shinigami reiryoku. Meh. Hollow Ichigo seems to be a completely different entity, akin to a parasite using a host for survival.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:06 AM
Yes, and no, but more yes. I refer to the time the Hollow pointed out most of Ichigo's moves are just a rip off of his. That Ichigo was only a 'pathetic fake' if i remember correctly. Besides, you see how he fought Muramasa? he got defeated but not through lack of skill that's for sure.
I prefer to distinguish a different between normal Ichigo and Ichigo which a strong resolve, as the power difference between them is large.
I can see how this conclusion has been come to, yet i also disagree. I think they are separate entities from their Shinigami. The reason being purely on Hitsugaya's sword. It is said to appear every 100 years, or 1000. I realise the movie is none canon but it does attempt to make a point as to exactly what Zanpactou are. As i see it, Zanpactou are recurring spirits who appear in shinigami. Why, how, i don't know, i don't even think the likely hood of this is remotely high. But it's how i see it, and it makes the most sense which doesn't make them all seem crazy ;p
Yeah, Gin said that Toshiro was a shinigami that was born once a century. No doubt that Gin was indirectly complimenting himself because just 100 years prior, Gin made a similar "genius" feat through the academy. But his zanpakutou...I'm not sure about that. I don't remember it saying anywhere in the manga that his zanpakutou was born once a century in a shinigami. That couldn't be possible unless the owner dies repeatedly with new reicarnations. The case with Yamamoto...his zanpakutou has existed for at least 2000 years. At least. That's how long ago he founded the school. They say it has the highest attack power....so, it is very unlikely that they mean it is reborn every s often. Agreed? It just means that it has the highest attack power. Same with Rukia: Toshiro's zanpakutou's powers are obviously greater in ability when compared to Rukia's...because they are both ice based.
But, yeah, I don't REALLY think they are all schizophrenic. I was being a tad facetious there when I said that. And, yes, they are literally separate physical entities such as in the case of subjugating them for the purposes of bankai. But, imo, they are more like horcruxes separate pieces of the whole soul.
So, going by this. Someone who is a master of everything about their soul, such as Yamamoto, would basically be sort of like Nirvana for them. lol Reaching complete control over every aspect of their personality and thoughts. This could be why Yamamoto's zanpakutou didn't go along with muramasa's technique of tricking and controlling zanpakutou....Yamamoto had complete mastery over his.
Dude, if most shinigami had Schizophrenia, Aizen wouldn't need his shikai at all .
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Oct 1st, 2009 at 06:40 AM
It was in Diamond Dust Rebellion. Because one sword chose two Shinigami, but that wasn't allowed, so they had to fight for it, and ultimately to the death.
I really can't recall clearly enough, i would have to watch it again.
As i say it's unlikely, but i prefer that over thinking they're all crazy ;p
Yeah, I haven't seen diamond dust rebellion. It seems, though, that he writers took zanpakutou's out of context. They are actually part of the shinigami's soul and not actually a wholly separate sentient being.
Yes they are a part of their Shinigami's soul. But within that soul they are seperate entities. Think of them as only able to exist within those souls. But when that person dies, it is not the end of them, they can reappear in another person soul given great time.
Or something like that. Atleas that's why Diamond Dust Rebellion would have us believe, which i choose to follow ;p
Well, reincarnation is not new to Eastern culture, so that's believable. Instead of the whole soul being reborn, it is a certain aspect of that soul. I can buy that.
Mortal wounds? He took over a dozen blows from a sword like Zangetstu, he was cut on both sides of his neck at the base of his shoulders and took a shot striaght through his face. At the very LEAST he took enough damage to equate several mortal wounds before removing his eyepatch. Anyone other than Kenny would have been done for. Even Ikkaku got obliterated by 1 shot like what Kenny was taking.
That IS what I'm arguing. I don't think he was holding back his spiritual pressure, he just wasn't using anywhere near his peak physical strength.
Yeah he did, nay-say all you like doesn't change the fact that he held them both off at once using shikais and then forced them into using bankai.
The only time he focused on Tousen was after his bankai release, for obvious reasons doesn't change what happened before.
What feats?
In both the anime AND the Manga Kenpachi parries a two handed strike from both Tousen AND Sajin who were putting their full body weights into it, holding his sword with one hand.
And, Kenpachi still did this with his eyepactch on, covered in wounds from Ichigo from 3 days earlier, and having just taken the full on Shikai attacks of both captains.... How on earth you can possibly draw yourself to the conclussion that Kamamura is well beyond me, but please do tell I'd love to know, especially given that Kenny was the one to cut through the toughest Hierro of the Espada.
Likewise, prove your case that Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi.. please.
Tousen TRIED to kill Kenpachi with his bankai, and failed utterly... Kenpachi could not beat either of those two captains? He DID... he beat one using his bankai to the point that he literally began to walk away from the fight because it ceased to amuse him.
"I don't like it, it didn't happen".
No the point is, that Kenpachi was STILL holding back 1/2 his true power while Ichigo was going all out and had backup from two seperate sources.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
In what way is that logic faulty?
Given that Tousen seems to think Kenpachi's some sort of oni, that may very well be true. Point?
Since your scan doesn't actually show up it's hard to tell what you're talking about.
Is Kenpachi of the four noble families? No..... Okay point?
You may as well say he's as strong as all the Espada based on that "faulty logic"...
And Kenny's far from a sheer berserker, so once again, your point?
Kenny simply enjoys fighting, this doesn't preclude that he can think in a fight. Especially when he used his fighting intelligence to own Tousen.
Because of the reference to his observation on Gin and Tousen? Hardly... it's true.
Given that you're aware of where that's from I think we can at this point just conclude that you're a hypocrite.
Exactly, he shies away from tricks/intelligence/selling out, it doesn't dictate that he's not an intelligent fighter though.
Example: Kenpachi accurately figures that Gin left Ichigo alive on purpose outside the front gate of the Seretei.
Accurately assesses that Ichigo and Renji are in combat halfway across the Seretei.
In the anime pinpoints Ichinose's position and figures out who was infiltrating the Seretei when everyone else had a mass issue doing so.
I already know that. The guy runs long distance alongside bullet trains, he memics flash step he moves so fast.
But nonsense, Byakuya's not "absurdly faster" or "much much faster" than Kenpachi.
Kenpachi was able to practically teleport on Ichigo during their fight twice, at a point that Ichigo claimed he could read all of Byakuya's movements.
In the Anime, Kenny EASILY contends with Ichinose's shunpo who by all appearances seemed to have Ichigo at his mercy in a flash step contest.
He was able to cover a mass distance to save Ichigo before he got hammered by Telsa, appearing seemingly out of nowhere even though they were surrounded by a desert.
And finally able to keep up with Sonido against Nnoitra
Byakuya couldn't outmatch the speed of a SEVERLY wounded Ichigo who had just been fighting Kenpachi, possibly less than an hour before hand. How in the hell is he "much much faster"..... If you're talking about his Zenbanzakura, that's a totally different story.
Still looks like he hit him with the stump of his blade, doesn't really matter either way though. Given the fact that Renji's Zanpactou quite literally disintigrated in his hands it really doesn't come off anywhere near as impressive as what Kenny did.
just giving some food for though. But no, it's not the "end of the that" until we know for sure... lest you think you can chalk Kenny's sword being released up to another plot-hole.. Tell me, how the hell can Kenny use his released state if he doesn't even know it's name?
That's the difference between him and Ichigo and it draws things into serious discrepency.
Since the plot calls for Tousen to lose the fight, him giving problems to Kenpachi is what's PIS....
It was CIS that was influencing both sides of the fight.
Tousen's was that he didn't kill Kenny in the first strike, Kenny's was that he didn't just remove his eyepatch and blow Tousen's Bankai like he did Ichinose's.... AS WELL AS him being distracted and unfocused enough by Tousen's Bankai reveal to allow Tousen to land that first blow in the first place...
Kenny a character praised by the 13 court guard squad as on of the best in sheer fighting ability, and one who berrates others for losing focus during a fight, and who's focus on the fight is so great that Myori asserts not to interfere in his fights.....
LOST HIS FOCUS enough to be hit by a strike that he was shown consistently and repeatedily capible of avoiding....
Yeah not PIS, you just don't like it.
After bankai, not before... stop ignoring half the damned fight.
Only because Ikkaku himself refused to release his Bankai, Kenny one shotted a Fraccion with one blow without even taking his eyepatch off.
Which is easily refuted when you consider that Kenpachi was more than capible of avoiding the blow when he focused on the fight and not the distraction of the Bankai to begin with.
Whic is easily countered when you consider that if Kenpachi wasn't dicking around he would have removed his eyepatch, powered up, used Kendo and utterly obliterated Tousen's Bonkai anyways.
Which is why he did so against Tousen.
Against the previous squad 11 Captain.
And why he straight killled a released state Espada... okay.. "I don't like it, it didn't happen."
Simply following your fine example hypocrite.
Might as well label Tite Kubo a fanboy then.
Kenpachi has already beaten 2 Captains who used Bankai to against him, and an Espada's Released state. CIS played more against Kenny than Tousen in their fight. Honeslty... stop this nonsense.
I will then take this as your concession that Bankai doesn't = Victory with Kenpachi.....
Concession accepted, so drop that nonsense.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Uh, no... Byakuya failed to beat a sealed Renji with his Shikai, but you think he's gonna beat Kenpachi? GTFO.
Not really a typical captain is he.
Again with this 'much faster" crap. Get that outa here! Kenny's already proven fast enough to keep up with flash step and sonido on expert levels.
And you're completely assuming this based on Soifon hitting Kenpachi as needed before being taken out of a fight. Given that Tousen failed to do as much in a fight where Kenpachi had all his senses removed, what chance does Soifon have?
Same as above.
All of these are up for debate....
hell, shunsui's shikai isn't even really granting him an advantage after his opponent figures out the rules.
But all you're doing for Soifon and Myori, is giving them the benefit of the doubt and robbing Kenny of his.
Given his fighting ability he's more likely to land first blood, assuming he's not messing around.
You're relying on a misconception that they are much faster than Kenny in combat when nothing of the sort has been proven true. Likewise Kenny could Slice either of their heads off with one blow without eyepatch removal OR Kendo.
No I don't... since it's not true.. And infact proven false several times in the series already.
No.. that's what you've been doing Mr. "Kenny never fought both captains at once, he can't beat someone using Bankai etc etc..
PIS is entirely subjective to the reader which is why it can be argued both ways. I ignore your claims to PIS because 1) you call PIS on so many things and 2) Because they're not actually things influenced by PIS but CIS.
I care about facts, not your preferences.
It was obviously a joke to make my point more effective about you ignoring facts.
It's a better method than the one you use which is essentially a grown up version of a "Nu-uh" argument, only one that's filled with ten dollar words, little substance, and the occassional red herrings when you don't have anything tangible to cling to.
The same pressure that's caused massive shockwaves with one strike while not even powered up or without his eyepatch?
That's on par with Kenpachi? Really.. The same pressure that devestated Ichinose's released state with a flex?
How about some proof or example to this statement other than your bias opinion?
Databook fails to impress when it's constantly contradicted by the source material, you should head over the comic forums and ask how reliable to handbooks are.
In what blue hell has Sajin proven stronger? When he got stopped by a one handed parry from Kenpachi or when he got manhandled and tossed aside.
Christ it wasn't even a judo toss, he just grabbed Sajin and chucked him.
I'm going to assume you mean when Ichigo beat Kenpachi?
Yes, without a doubt Ichigo was more powerful then them in spiritual pressure this should be obvious. C'mon, before his temporary amp up he was stronger than Ikkaku or Renji and both of them are around captain level, and that was before he even built himself up enough to cut Kenny. Several men near captain level are not even on the level needed to cut kenny.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Oct 4th, 2009 at 05:49 PM
Yamamoto probably not. Unohana I doubt he'd beat either (going by implications at least)
Shunsui or Ukitake using shikai... I think is entirely left up to debate against an all out Kenny.
Shunshui even said something along the lines of his Shikai being dangerous to himself, so it's just a matter of who's better at taking advantage of the rules at play.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
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And, you idiot. If the "hallow mask" energy face means he was using his hallow powah, then so was Kenpachi...if we are to apply your broken logic.
Oct 1st, 2009 04:06 AM
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"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
