Kenny dodging Tousen's attacks even without his senses, is the standard, not the exception.
Tousen hitting him was due to CIS, CIS affected both only it affected kenny more as he didn't even try to take his patch off.
Yeah that's what he said, but the PLOT dictated Tousen to give Kenny a challenge before he lost. That he did something which was contradicted multiple times later is a plot device not the other way around. CIS was at play here, not PIS, and it affected Kenny more.
Uh, no. This has EVERYTHING to do with the argument at hand.
You think Tousen able to take advantage of a surprised Kenny dictates Kenny's ability to beat his Bankai.
You think Kenny was less affected by CIS than Tousen when he was the one holding more back in that fight.
You think that Tousen cutting Kenpachi with that first strike was a testament to his advantage over Kenny in combat even though it was discredited almost immediately after, and done so multiple times.. You're ignoring what you don't like, CIS played both parties, simple as. And yeah, it DOES work that way since CIS is applicable to both characters and unlike PIS is not relative to our subjections.
Your point?!
Your point was that it was a permanent power-up even though everything about that scene dictates otherwise. So yeah, they were counters to that point. Way to follow along.
Please tell me this logical fallacy that's being used here.
Ichigo gets stronger after every fight, sure. No one said he didn't... What we're saying is that Ichigo's CONSISTENT level of strength isn't what it was while he was fighting Kenpachi.
Did Ichigo get stronger after that fight? Sure he did. Was it to a degree that you can jusitfy saying that his level of strength was consistently where it was when he fought Kenpachi and that is wasn't a temorary flux? Hell no.
And everything I said was a reason for why.
Fact is, as I already stated Ichigo's powers are all. over. the. place.
It's why he was able to reel back a Menos, and stop it's cero, but get beat up by an officer at 1/5 power like Renji, THEN backhand him into the air like a ragdoll.
It's why he was able to beat Ikkaku with little relative trouble, but then fought an almost losing battle with Renji, Ikkaku's student.
It's why he was stronger than Ulq for a moment, and then got curbed by Yammi, almost immediately after owning Yammi.
Why he's able to do things like scar Grimmjow after he had been no-sold the entire fight beforehand.
And there's even more examples than that. He was simply at the peak of one of his fluxes, and then that was compounded by two sources aiding him in the fight.
His performance there has not been matched since and for you to continue arguing otherwise is to simply ignore that Ichigo couldn't handle an espada of the 6th level using Bankai on 3 seperate occassions, nevermind Shikai, which he would have had to have done to match the level of power he was at while fighting Kenpachi, the man who was fighting the 5th to a standstill before his eyepatch came off.
Yet.
Kisuke>Renji - he fought Kisuke first.
Ikkaku (Presumably)> Renji - He fought Ikkaku first.
Grimmjow<Ulq - He fought Grimm then Ulq, then Grimm again.
Fact is almost everyone of his fight performances proves that he's bouncing all around the scale, simply that the center of his scale is slowly going upwards which is why he showings have been becoming consistently stronger looking but all over the place all the same.
lol, not sure what part about that you define as the "fit" but if that's any indication of your comprehensive abilities I'd say I'm beginning to understand why you're arguing the way you are.
Major fights to the plot or to his life? Because you know Kisuke WAS trying to kill him, as was ulq.
I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing facts. Fact is he fights opponents with varying levels of power and displays that his own power level varies. At any rate... at ANY rate.... You can't argue that the powerup he had against Kenpachi was a permenant one PERIOD. You can try but there's so many inconsistencies in trying to prove that, that the argument does nothing but fall to pieces at the seams which, I'm betting, is why you're so apt to cling to your excuses of PIS and such.
Well I don't so I guess I don't have to worry huh.
Nice little strawman though....
Basically all I see from you are glorified Nu-uh arguments, and that's when you're not just making up your own conclussions pulled straight out your backside. When you want to debate with the facts maybe we can continue this, as it stands your grdaeschool attempts to discredit empiracle evidence are pretty atrocious and if you focused half as much on the evidence as you do hitting on Angel maybe you would have half a leg to stand on....
Ichigo's as strong as Kenpachi using Shikai when he fought Grimmjow, he just lost HORRIBLY using Bankai, because he wanted to make things interesting right? That's what YOUR "faulty logic" would have us believe.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Oct 4th, 2009 at 08:26 PM
Sorry, I know you're not familiar with me, that was the Super-multi-battle-post.
But yeah I'm probably checking out after that last one. Not gonna do that again for someone who wants to say things didn't happen that clearly took place on screen and on panel as well.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Mortal wound would be a stab through the lungs, major artery, etc. He cut large superficial cuts that would be mortal if not addressed, sure. If you want to argue semantics on wounds about a fictional universe, go ahead. Fact is, Ichigo was stabbed THROUGH the chest and they BOTH suffered large SUPERFICIAL wounds. Ichigo was in worst shape, at the beginning, in the middle, and even after the fight was over.
Specifically, half of his striking ability.
Deny all you want, he really didn't.
Here's your "at-once":
Sajin did that super strike with his Shikai (where it makes a huge arm). He knew full well that it wouldn't hit Kenpachi. He did it to make dust so Kenpachi wouldn't see the next attack from Tousne's shikai. Then, Tousen did his Shikai thingie, which would kill most shinigami, no problem.
Then, we have a double sealed sword strike against Kenpachi's released zanpakutou.
There's the extent of Sajin's involvement in the fight. All the rest was completely Tousen.
Now, no more of this.
This serves no purpose in this discussion. And, you're incorrect here, as well. If you want to get all pedantic on me, so will I.
Every time Kenpachi talks directly to Tousen, he is focusing on Tousen. Also, when kenpachi kicked away Tousen when they did that double sword strike, he was focusing on Tousen.
So, you think that Sajin was giving it his all, hmm?
If Sajin REALLY put all of his effort into that strike, it would have launched Kenpachi straight down through the building. Or are you forgetting that he has the greatest strength feat in all of Bleach? (When he threw the skyscraper arrancer.)
Why is it difficult to assume that both Tousen and Sajin were holding back at the beginning of the fight? Of course, we could always talk about poor writing: Tousen chopped off Grimmjow's arm and Grimmjow didn't even notice it until after it happened. Sajin flipped that absurdly large arrancer, all on his own. You can say that those feats are PIS compared to their first showing. That's fine. I'd agree with that. That's really what my actual point was from the beginning.
Tousen did not TRY to kill Kenpachi. He said he was, then dicked around for the first 3 or 4 strikes. If he TRIED to kill Kenpachi, he would have taken his head off as fast as he took Grimmjow's arm off.
Nemebro called that CIS. Cool. We can call it that.
Two "separate" sources? Sorry, no. He didn't. A zanpakutou is part of a shinigami's soul. It IS them.
And, no, Kenpachi was not holding back half of his true power. He let it all loose. He just forgot to use his kendo skills that would double his striking power. (That's striking power, not his power, as a whole.)
Not once, but twice do we see a large skull face energy thing behind Kenpachi as he does his supersaiyan thing.
The very same fight that has Ichigo with that "hallow" energy face behind him is the same exact fight Kenpachi had the same damn thing..just mere panels away from each other.
You can look back a couple of pages. It won't kill ya.
The point is that Byakuya is the strongest to ever come from the noble families in all of history. Isn't it obvious?
The fact that his spiritual pressure is equal to or greater than Kenpachi's should at least testify of the difference.
Byakuya vs. Kenpachi would be a rather one sided fight. Just a sealed sword figh alone would be rather one sided.
No, that would be taking out of context of what my comment was about. It was simply a comment about how strong Byakuya was...which that particular point is unrelated to Kenpachi, the comment before that about the spiritual pressure was not, though.
My bad. I thought that someone who became blood lusted to kill during battle was a berserker. I thought someone who was called a demon, murderer, etc. during a fight could also be considered a berserker.
You say that Kenpachi is far from a berserker is one of the dumbest things you've ever posted.
Well, since you bring it up, my coworker reads Bleach a lot, too. He just got done telling me about Kenpachi being observant and used that same argument about his skills. Of course, my natural response was, "where?" He couldn't find it in the manga, so he showed me the Bleach wiki article stating that.
I try to steer clear of wiki's specifically for that reason. If it was stated by Kenpachi, or implied, we couldn't find it. I don't remember. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but it does mean that you're using the Bleach wiki to pwn newbz. I don't like wiki-warrior debates.
I don't disagree with this, however, he's not on the intellectual level of say, Byakuya, Ukitake, or Urahara. That's really my point.
I know you know. I was stating it to just put out there how badass Kenpachi is. It was also so you could know that I know that. No I know that you know that I know that. And now that I've said that, you know that I know that you know that I know that.
No, he is. That's the end of this discussion. Dead serious. For anyone to think for a moment that Kenpachi, who can't even use s
You've got that backwards. ICHIGO reacted fast enough to block Byakuya's sword strike technique known as senka? (I forget what it's really called and I can't be arsed to look it up.)
Ichigo couldn't, at the time, move as fast as Byakuya. He could, however, react in time to block a sword strike to his back.
I think, at this point, you're arguing just for the sake of argument.
That's cool. You can interpret it the way you want. But, to me, it looks like he broke off the tip of the blade on Byakuya, and the rest of the sword shattered due to the stress of the strike.
Damn it, dude. It was the end of that discussion. Until we have more information from the manga, it really is indeed the end of that discussion.
Okay, I can follow that logic. If that's the case, then Tousen shouldn't have been able to cut off Grimmjow's arm so easily.
Here's my logic on how retarded that was:
Ichigo beat Kenpachi at his best (minus the two handed kendo technique thingie). Then, Ichigo got training that made him a MUCH better sword fighter, learned shunpu, and unlocked his bankai. K, follow me so far?
Now, this version of Ichigo is much much stronger than his previous version. That version, in bankai mode, could easily dice Ichigo up. His sword skills alone greatly improved and he was able to not only FINALLY start keeping up with Zangetsu, he was fighting multiple Zangetsu's at once towards the end.
Now, we have this very same Bankai Ichigo getting his ass handed to him by unreleased Esapda, Grimmjow.
This very same Grimmjow got his arm hacked off by Tousen like it was nothing. Grimmjow has a hierro, which hardens his sking beyond Kenpachi's, he's much faster as he outclasses a bankai Ichigo, and he fights faster and better than a bankai Ichigo. This is an Ichigo that improved rediculously since his fight with Kenpachi. Give Kenpachi his Kendo Technique. Ichigo easily blocked a FAR more powerful attack than that attack: He stopped that sokyoku execution blade like it was nothing. This same Tousen who couldn't kill Kenpachi, easily cut off the arm of Grimmjow and at such speed that Grimmjow couldn't even react until after it happened.
Now, we can coclude 1 or 2 things: Tousen cutting of Grimmjow's arm is absurd PIS, or both Sajin and Tousen were going really easy on Kenpachi. We have feats from both Sajin and Tousen that would indicate either PIS or that they were going easy on him.
I like to thinkt that Tousen NOT cutting off Kenpachi's head, first of, during the bankai, is absurd PIS. If he said he was going to kill him, why didn't he do it? He could have. It was well within his ability to? Why did he just slash him? He wasn't serious about actually killing him when he said it multiple times.
Here's another perspective, which I covered with Nemebro: He just wanted to torture Kenpachi but didn't count on Kenpachi being so badass that he would allow himself to get stabbed just to kill Tousen. In fact, that seems the most plausible...but is really out of character for Tousen.
What do you say?
1. It was PIS that Tousen didn't kill Kenpachi in one sword strike like he should have and it was Kubo just trying to write out a longer story and save his characters.
2. It wasn't PIS at all and Tousen was very much trying to torture Kenpachi...which would also be PIS as Tousen is supposed to be a kind righteous type of character.
3. It was PIS that Kenpachi, while still wearing his patch, could even stand up to Sajin or Tousen.
4. Both Tousen and Sajin were holding waaaaaay back and didn't hold back later in the series.
OR
5. All subsequent feats from Tousen and Sajin were CIS.
My take on the whole Tousen thing was, he believes Kenpachi to be a demon. His character to date tells us he believes himself to be an infallible force of justice. So my bet would be he was performing an act of retribution on Kenpachi.
He made references to fear, to me indicating he wanted Kenpachi to for once fear battle and a fight, as the so called demon loves and revels in it. Isn't that what their squad is about? Fearing war, and fighting?
I don't think he wanted to Kill Kenpachi per say. Maybe he was tempted, but he didn't, which to me suggests that wasn't what he had in mind. I suppose he changed his mind once he realised Kenpachi doesn't fear battle no matter what it is he is fighting, which was after he attack Kenpachi a few times. After that my bet was Tousen considered Kenpachi beyond 'redemption', and decided then and there to kill him. Only by which time Kenpachi had already worked out how he was going to win.
As for what what is PIS. I think Ichigo fought Kenpachi at full resolve which considered a resolved Ichigo beat Shirosaki (Hollow Ichigo) this is seemingly stronger than Vizard Ichigo (Ichigo using Shirosaki's power). While Bankai has been stated to only increase his speed, Kenpachi's Strength has not been left behind.
Resolved Ichigo also stopped the executing with one hand, and cut a stand that could stop a million zanpactou. Thus has some of the best feats in Bleach.
Thus i believe Kenpachi to be as strong (or more likely stronger) as Tousen and Byakuya in a sword fight only. Naturally those two are proficient and powerful with Kidou so that is where a balance is achieved. Until you consider Byakuya's bankai anyway.
Which in turn explains everything..... right?
Atleast if you consider my opinion to be true. Which is the optional part ;p
Probably nothing, and it is not up to debate, all four of them are the strongest captains in all of Soul Society, with Shunsui taking out the Primera by himself, Ukitake is about the same level.
Also, dadudemon, I am probably not going to respond. I will not resort to making four posts, each one enough for a couple essays, in order to argue anime.
Yeah, I don’t get the whole Myori fear thing. Myori could easily wipe the floor with Kenpachi with his Shikai. No one stands a chance against Myori unless they are faster or have a hack shikai/bankai.
I have no idea what you’re going on about, here. You do know that Tousen got 3-4 strikes on Kenpachi before Kenpachi adjusted to the Bankai, right?
And, avoiding those strikes while he was under Tousen’s bankai is not even close to being correct. He didn’t avoid any of them. What he DID do was avoid getting his vitals slashed or stabbed.
And, it is PIS, you just don’t like it because it takes away from your love of Kenpachi. Cool. But there’s other things to like about Kenpachi other than him surviving against Tousen when he shouldn’t have, by all logic.
Sorry, bro, but the vast majority of the fight occurred between Kenpachi and Tousen. Stop ignoring most of the fight, incorrectly assigning the small skirmish before the majority of the fight as “half the damned fight”, and ignoring obvious CIS.
We’ll come back to this, in a moment. It’s good info for a subsequent point of mine.
No, it is not refutable at all. I’ve been over this already. Kenpachi had no idea what to do. It took him a few slashes to adapt. Tousen had the upper hand, by an absurd amount. Again, “IF Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi and not dick around, he would have chopped his head off, first thing.”
Since we know for a fact that it took Kenpachi several slashes and THEN some to finally get it down, your point flies directly in the face of fact.
1. This is a completely baseless statement.
2. Not being able to see, hear, taste, smell, or even feel his spiritual energy, kind of makes your point completely untrue. If it would have helped him, he would have done so. Or did you forget that Kenpachi said to himself that he could really die?
3. He didn’t remember his Kendo thing until his fight with #5. You can’t pick and chose things that are out of continuity. At that time, that kendo thing was not available to Kenpachi. (Sure, he could have done it, but it wouldn’t have done jack diddly squat for him inside of the bankai.)
I guess you weren’t paying attention to what you were just posting to, were you? That was story stupidity that he didn’t just lop off Kenpachi’s head.
Irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the current captains.
1. I only insult if I am insulted.
2. You insulted me first.
3. I called you ignorant, which isn’t really an insult. You didn’t know something. That’s ignorance. There’s tons of things I don’t know and if you knew something I didn’t, and I spoke in ignorance about it, and you set me straight, I would say it is ignorance on my part for not knowing that.
Wow. You finally are getting a clue, here. HE CAN BE TAUGHT!
As I already addressed earlier in this thread (which you seem to have conveniently overlooked), I was referring to the current captains.
And, you really need to stop this nonsense yourself. CIS worked FOR Kenpachi. Have you not been paying attention at all to anything I’ve said(posted)? Obviously, you have, but you chose to ignore and use counterarguments that are either full of fail or are factually incorrect. Honestly, this beats anything, as far as idiocy goes, you’ve stated previously: “CIS played more against Kenny than Tousen in their fight.” You’ve got to be kidding me. (What’s sad is you’re not. You’re actually serious.)
You can incorrectly and idiotically interpret it that way, if you want to. It is not “bankai = victory [against] Kenpachi.” It is any current or recent captain’s Bankai that would destroy Kenpachi, CIS aside. The only exception to this would be Ichigo. He would wipe the floor clean with Kenpachi in Bankai form. Renji…I dunno. Ikkaku…I dunno. Prolly not…but Renji might pull a win off with his energy blast thingie.
Wow. I take it back. THIS is the stupidest thing you’ve said. This is so stupid that I didn’t even laugh at it. It’s pathetic and sad. You’ve lost any reasonable counter arguments so you’re going directly against what was contained and making stuff up on the spot. (I know another poster that used to do that. Leo.)
So, to you, Byakuya holding back Renji in his sealed state, when Renji was using his Bankai, is Byakuya using his shikai and Renji using his sealed form?
K. I’ll bite. Post the scans of shikai Byakuya fighting a sealed Renji with his Shikai.
I’ll save you some time and tell you what happened: Byakuya was going to release his Shikai. Then, Renji quickly released his and launched it at Byakuya, forcing Byakuya to have to stop the release. Then Renji goes to his Bankai form. Then, Byakuya friggin’ fights Renji’s BANKAI WITH HIS SEALED ZANPAKUTOU!
Someone is in deeeeeniiiiiaaaaaal. teehee
Yeah, cause someone being really fast doesn’t help at ALL in combat.
GTFO outta here with that crap.
On “expert” levels, huh? Cause it was established that #5 was using sonido on “expert levels” huh? GTFO outta here with that crap. For all we know, #5 didn’t even USE sonido in the manga. It was never said that he used Sonid. In fact, I think I got that “doesn’t have to use shunpu” BS from the anime.
You’re COMPLETELY right, man. Why the hell would I assume that one of the fastest (I don’t know who is faster: Soi Fon or Yuroichi) Shinigami would be able to use a hack shikai ability that only requires to pokes?
And, you still haven’t paid attention to anything I’ve said. Tousen not chopping off Kenpachi’s head at the very beginning is major PIS/CIS.
And mine is the same as above.
It’s rather retarded to think that Kenpachi remotely stands a chance against people as fast as Byakuya or Soi Fon.
Sure, it’s up for debate…only if I feel like arguing with a bleach retard who thinks Kenpachi even remotely stands a chance against Soi Fon, Byakuya, or any of the other captains I mentioned.
Right, cause everyone is as smart as Stark. If you actually read the manga, Stark’s intuition is ridiculous. He’s not really comparable to anyone except maybe Yamamoto and Aizen, as far as intuition/intelligence goes.
Or the fact that Myori easily kept up with Ishida, who was a master of a technique similar to shunpu? Or that fact that Soi Fon could wreck anyone not able to keep up with her in her shikai form? (Cept Barringan…cause Barringan had the cheat hack aging cloud mist thingie going on.)
Yes, remove any sort of personality from Kenpachi (no patch) and Soi Fon(She can stay just in her Shikai form, but is serious), and Soi Fon insta kills Kenpachi with two strikes that appear to only be one unless played back in really slow mo.
Cept that, Kenpachi can’t use shunpu and they can and their Shikai’s are haxor, and his is just a big sword, etc. Yeah, there’s NO reason at all to know that it would end quickly with Kenpachi on the dying end. Good call. NOT.
I don’t remember anywhere where it said that #5 was using sonido. Makes perfect sense why Kenpachi could beat him.
No, you do see it. It was proven true many times In the manga, already. You just say things that contradict the other person, not caring how wrong or right they are.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’ve been doing, Mr. “I’ll just make up a bunch of stuff to counter DDM’s points because almost everything I’ve been arguing has been baseless or simply ignorance.” That’s a long name you have there, friend.
Actually, no, PIS is almost always NOT subjective.
No, you care about what you can make up or blatantly ignore.
1. It was not a joke.
2. $10 words? WTF? I haven’t used any big words at all. If I did, that’d be the stupidest argument anyone could come up with.
3. Odd that you say my arguments have no substance since that have little fact when they all contain absurd test walls of facts and cover many different logical perspectives on each point.
4. Red Herrings? Pffft. I need you to quote all of the Red Herrings. After you do that, I’ll show you where you just didn’t understand.
Wait, you mean the same Reiatsu that DIDN’T destroy the ground just by him flexing it while standing still?
So, like, yeah. You didn’t address any of my points and are instead going off into strawman territory.
And, on top of that, you’re using filler episode bull as a counter argument. Laaaaame.
Databook doesn’t fail when there are multiple feats to back it up. And, you can’t bat away a canon source just because it contradicts your points. That’s just dumb.
I’m actually loling to myself, now, because you don’t know what I’m talking about.
PIS is PIS, bro. And, no, he used Sajin’s massive size and strength to throw Sajin with a very “judo” like toss. Nice try, Mr. Denials.
Yeah, this statement is completely baseless. We know that Renji couldn’t cut Byakuya when he was almost completely drained and Byakuya has the same as or greater than spiritual pressure as Kenpachi. Ikkaku is in the same boat as Renji. They are about equals with Ikkaku having a tad more experience with fighting and with his Bankai.
As for Sajin having higher spiritual power...Why? Because he destroyed t3h ground? Lol, shut up.
Kenpachi has shown to have among the highest spiritual power in the series, his clash with Ichigo when both were at full power destroyed several surrounding buildings, it is so powerful by slashing in a building's direction he cut it in half.
Why do you think Kenpachi is the weakest captain? Is it because he is the most feared captain in Soul Society (Except for maybe Unohana and Yamamoto) and has a boogieman effect on those he battles? Is it because he killed the previous captain of his squad? Is it because he has shown to be definately superior to at least one captain?
__________________ Thanks Scythe!
Last edited by NemeBro on Oct 5th, 2009 at 03:07 AM
I’ve already talked about it too. You’re just dense. Tousen hitting him is by far, not CIS.
It’s the opposite. Since that time, Tousen has shown that he can move so absurdly fast and precise that he lopped off Grimmjow’s arm. The fact that Tousen didn’t do that to Kenny, who would be SOFTER than Grimmjow, is PIS and CIS. (It kept the fight going on longer, making it PIS. But, him not actually doing it is CIS.)
No it doesn’t. *facepalms*
Nope.
I think Tousen NOT chopping off Kenpachi’s head with the very first strike, when it was fully within his powers, is PIS/CIS. Kenpachi was able to beat him because Tousen struck him with his sword a few times, giving Kenpachi enough time to figure out a way to adapt. THEN, Kenpachi STILL got sliced and stabbed, he was just avoiding certain death by dodging just enough.
Right. Because if Kenpachi would have increased his reiatsu he would all of a sudden gain the ability to see, taste, hear, smell, and feel Tousen’s reiatesu? GTFO out of here with that crap.
Uh.
No.
This:
“Since that time, Tousen has shown that he can move so absurdly fast and precise that he lopped off Grimmjow’s arm. The fact that Tousen didn’t do that to Kenny, who would be SOFTER than Grimmjow, is PIS and CIS. (It kept the fight going on longer, making it PIS. But, him not actually doing it is CIS.)
I think Tousen NOT chopping off Kenpachi’s head with the very first strike, when it was fully within his powers, is PIS/CIS. Kenpachi was able to beat him because Tousen struck him with his sword a few times, giving Kenpachi enough time to figure out a way to adapt. THEN, Kenpachi STILL got sliced and stabbed, he was just avoiding certain death by dodging just enough.”
Your entire argument was build on a logical fallacy….AGAIN. Surprise surprise, right?
“Because if Kenpachi would have increased his reiatsu he would all of a sudden gain the ability to see, taste, hear, smell, and feel Tousen’s reiatesu? GTFO out of here with that crap.”
Nice try. You still missed it. Not suprising. I’ve explained it to you and Nembro more than once now. I’m not doing it again.
Here’s a summary of what just happened:
DDM: Ichigo has gotten stronger since his fight with Kenpachi.
Nemebro: Nuh uhhh! He can’t replicate the close the wound feat and do that powerup focus thing.
DDM: Dude, that wasn’t even my point. And he did increase his focus since then by MANY times.
Nemebro: You didn’t counter my point. That makes me right.
DDM: Dude, it was a non sequitor argument to begin with. It didn’t even address mine.
Jinzin: *Makes the same logical fallacy*
DDM: *Explains the same damn thing.*
Jinzin: ZOMG! Look at you. You’re so stuuuuupid. Lol, he didn’t keep doughs power ups. Lulz.
DDM: *Faceplams*
A non sequitor counter argument followed by a strawman. I’ve already stated that. Try to keep up.
Great. And I didn’t contradict that. In fact, I agreed with it. What’s your point?
Now do you see why you two have me facepalming?
Cept. No. Ichigo peak hasn’t been as weak since his fight with Kenpachi well…since his fight with Kenpachi. Sure, we can get pedantic and talk about times he was injured and/or exhausted from his fights. Bla bla bla. That’s not peak. (Fresh.)
Nah. In both cases, Ichigo berserked. Fail point is fail.
I finally found what I was looking for. Renji WAS five times stronger. That means his first fight with Renji was greatly limited, and why he was handing Ichigo his butt in their soul society fight.
And, my take on it is again, PIS. It could also be the simple fact the Ikkaku got to complacent in his confidence against a literal rookie. However, there’s no denying that Ikkaku should have won if Ikkaku taught Renji on the side and had a Bankai for years without telling anyone.
I digress. It could be that Renji was just more motivated to surpass Byakuya than Ikkaku was Kenpachi.
hmmm..
If that’s what Ulq was talking about, that makes sense, now. I thought he was talking about Ichigo using his mask to go ape shizer sometimes.
The fact the Grimmjow tanked that when Tousen cut his arm off like it was butter should be a further testament to my point of PIS, earlier. (This is what you call a strawman. However, it isn’t a “perfect” strawman as we were talking about that, earlier. It’s a strawman only in the context of your above comment, but not to the discussion as a whole. And, you’re right. I am not denying that what you said isn’t true or wrong or faulty logic.)
Woah woah woah. Hold on a minute. You stated A and skipped all the way to C. He definitely was at the peak of one of his fluxes. However, it was only one source: his ownself. His performance there has been surpassed in every single major subsequent match. You are just wanting energy to be coming off of them for it to be legit. His Getsua Tenshou should be an example of this. (I’m just assuming that that’s where you’re coming from with you idea that Ichigo’s performance hasn’t been matched. That’s simply not true.)
And, you’re making a very misleading argument about Kenpachi.
1. #5 didn’t appear to be using sonido.
2. #5 was still in his sealed form.
Nah. I’d say Ikkaku is weaker than Renji, despite Ikkaku having his bankai mastered for longer. The bankai thing.
Maybe. In shikai, Renji. Bankai, MAYBE Ikkaku. I may rethink my position unless we get another Ikkaku bankai feat.
I agree. It’s a land slide. With Ulq, there’s not PIS. We know Ulq is retard fast, strong, and has tons of reiatesu. On top of that, he’s the ONLY espada we’ve seen with a second release. He said that not even Aizen knew about it.
No. All of his fights show a nice steady increase in ability, strength, and reiatesu.
The only exception would be Ikkaku, but that could simply be a cause of…Ikkaku simply isn’t stronger than Renji.
I seriously lol’d hard. You’re that last person that should imply anyone is stupid, bro.
Yes and yes.
No, you’re trying to, and failing, to argue semantics. And, no, his powers are rather linear as the series progresses. Sure, he gets worn out, sure he gets boosts from his hallow side. Overall, it’s rather linear. Now, you can argue that he’s all over the place in every fight. That’s fine. But, then so is every single character in every single fight.
Here’s how bleach and most manga fights go:
Character 1: I will beat you. Take this!
Character 2: I can take that. You take THIS!
Character 1: I can take that, but here’s my power or technique you didn’t know about. AHA!
Character 2: I have my own. AHA!
Character 1: I’m on the ropes, but I’ll never loose!
Character 2: Victory is mine. I’ve almost won! AHA!
Character 1: ZOMG! Here’s my win pulled out of nowhere! AHA!
Character 2: Oh man, you’re so strong. I learned something new about myself and/or about you.
Doesn’t that look like…pretty much every single fight in bleach?
This is what I mean by semantics. You can argue that b.s., but, generally, Ichigo is no more up and down than anyone else and his progression is rather linear. (Is linear one of those $10 words you were talking about? If so, you learn that word in what, middle school?)
No, that’s not a strawman argument. You obviously don’t know what one is. (By the time you read this, you probably know what one is, as I explained it, slightly, earlier.)
It’s simply disbelief it your tard powers.
ZOMG! Liek, Kinpahchee can winz againsted Byakugan!
Basically, all I see from your retarded non sequitor, false, fanboyish, or just plain dumb arguments is that you just want to argue and you pull things out of your backside as counter points.
When you want to debate with facts maybe we can continue this. As it stands, your gradeschool arguments and attempt to using but misspelling a “big” word like empirical are pathetic. The fact that you’ve assigned “empirical evidence” to a debate about a fictional manga is frankly, atrocious. If you focused half as much time learning the meaning of big words, actually reading bleach instead of using the wikis, you’d actually make a decent point that didn’t commit half a dozen logical fallacies.
And, if you knew how awesome EvilAngel was, you’d think she was the bomb, too.
Wow, dude. That’s almost EXACTLY my point. That’s actually what happened, too. Why are you acting as if it isn’t true because that’s really what happened in the manga.
I've already indicated why. Pay attention so we don't have to talk about this a hundred million times.
This:
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Is no where near to being on par with this:
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or this:
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LOL, shutup. You know you've been pwned hardcore.
Kenpachi made some dust in the sand with his reiatesu and two handed sword strike. That's awesome....but...Sajin threw a character that was just as tall as the pillar of dust and sand AND the arrancer was wider and much more massive. Not only did he throw him, it was a significant distance.
Well, the largest amount of Reiatesu seen in the series, thus far, is when Ichigo and Byakuya were fighting on top of that execution hill. The reiatesus was larger than the hill. Much larger than the fight between Kenpachi and Ichigo. So, do I win because I'm right? Will you admit I'm right? PLEASE?!?!?
No, I said he was the weakest based on the over all stats. No shunpu, no kidou, is not as fast as the other captains even without shunpu, and is certainly not the smartest.
Edit - It almost took me 15 mintues to post all of that, you big jerk! FUUUUUUUUU!
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I agree with most of it. The part about Tousen changing his mind mid bankai, though, is not right. He said, before his Bankai, that he was going to kill Kenpachi. However, if you're referring to before the fight and then at the beginning, before bankai, that Tousen changed his mind to killing Kenpachi, then I agree.
In fact, that last part makes sense as to why Sajin and Tousen were having a difficult time with him. They simply weren't trying very hard as they didn't have any killing intent and Kenpachi did. Still, Kenpachi didn't take off his patch, so he was wanting to savor it as much as possible.
And, I agree. Byakuya is probably not as physically strong as Kenpachi or Sajin, but his overall abilities make him a much more powerful captain.
As far as stopping the execution blade, yes. That is probably the best feat. However, many people equate that to PIS as not even Yamamoto should have been able to stop that thing.
1. Oh really? And I am sure you have boundless evidence to prove Sajin was in fact the one who was holding back, right? Oh wait, no you don't. But guess what? I have proof that Kenny in fact WAS holding back. Kenpachi had his eyepatch on, sealing his power.
2. ?
Dude, why is it that you think posting a bunch of pictures that are not working is evidence?
That's nice, only we see Kenpachi overpower Sajin to disprove this.
3. Um, largest in appearance maybe? Sure, why not. In power? Nah. It didn't really do anything to my recollection, unlike Kenpachi and Ichigo's. Also, I am pretty sure Yamamoto's was larger and more powerful, and Ulquiorra's was more powerful.
What he lacks in shunpo he makes up for in raw speed, his reflexes and attack speed are very impressive. He lacks Kido, but makes up for it in endurance, power, and strength. He is very intelligent in battle by his own right.
If you would have read the giant word quilts, you would know why. I don't feel like going over it again.
The fact that he's the only one who tore up the ground when he flexed his Reiatesu automatically puts him as the top "reiatesu" flexor.
And, I already explained, in my quote of myself, why Sajin was obviously holding back.
They worked just fine for me at work. I don't know what happened. However, when you quote the post, you can easily see what link is being directed to.
Here is that post again but with onemanga images:
You can call it however you like, fact is, the largest amount of reiatesu seen is the Kuchiki Ichigo fight as it spanned the entire hill top and then some. No other fight has that massive of a reiatesu flexing going on.
Sajin's reiatesu flexing is the most destructive seen, so, if we want to get technical, his was the most powerful as no other character, to my recollection, destroyed stone tile with just simply flexing their reiatesu...not even Aizen when he stared dow Grimmjow.
And, I would agree that Yamamoto's would be more powerful...but his his fire...so it's kind of retarded to compare anyone to him as his just burns everything up. lol
You do realise Kenpachi cannot, and has never, actually flexed his reitsu right? He has little real control over it in such a way, although he is getting better. Regardless, it is irrelevant, the clash or Reitsu between Kenny and Ichigo were far more powerful, and by simple logic, Kenpachi has greater Reitsu.
Because Kenpachi was not sent flying by his assumed superior strength? Faulty logic. You are using circular reasoning, we should believe that Sajin is stronger because he is? Kenpachi has not a single lifting feat, he did however hold back two captains, swinging with both hands, with a single hand on his sword, shit, they even express their shock that he did it, why would Sajin express shock if he was holding back? He then manhandled Komamura. And what is up with this Judo throw bullcrap? He blocked his attack, then he grabbed his wrist and slammed Sajin. I cannot believe this argument, based on a single lifting feat, we should just accept Sajin is stronger, even though we have SEEN Kenpachi overpower him? Bullshit, by that logic because Superman has superior lifting feats, he is stronger than Doomsday even though Doomsday has manhandled him. Oh, and by the way, Aizen is stronger than Sajin as well. He caught Sajin's sword with one hand.
2. That's nice. Kenpachi still overpowered Sajin in their fight, which proves he is stronger. There is no debating this, you are wrong, deal with it.
3. Which did nothing...Unlike Kenpachi and Ichigo's bust of reitsu which destroyed the many surrounding buildings.
Entire hill my ass, it was only in two directions, and was not very large or vast. Not to mention the lack of any damage.
For the sake of compromise, I would be willing to say they are equal in size, but the Byakuya and Ichigo reitsu effect was not larger.
...Dude. We know Aizen's is stronger, since it subdued even the Sixth Espada, who is on par with Hollow Ichigo, Yamamoto's flex was able to rob Nanao of air, Ulquiorra's was so heavy it was described as being barely comparable to reitsu at all, and Kenpachi's power as a captain is due to his reitsu.
Well Toshiro's was known to freeze people, reitsu can have an element.
KMC Community Forums
Oct 4th, 2009 08:05 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
(What’s sad is you’re not. You’re actually serious.)
Kenpachi had his eyepatch on, sealing his power.
